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  • Moving Dozier Needs to Include Creativity


    Jeremy Nygaard

    Happy New Years!

    It may be the first you've heard of it, but it sounds like the Twins and Dodgers have been having trade discussions that revolve around All-Star 2B Brian Dozier.

    Oh, you have heard it?

    Of course you have. It's been an ongoing national talker and there's been no shortage of articles to read on the topic right here on this site.

    Image courtesy of Bruce Kluckhohn-USA TODAY Sports

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    While no one knows how close we are to getting (or not getting) to a resolution in these trade talks, you can put me squarely in the camp that believes the Twins shouldn't move Dozier unless they're blown away.

    Sorry guys, trading Dozier for Jose De Leon in a 1-for-1 swap isn't blowing the Twins away. And trading Dozier for De Leon and Brock Stewart also isn't enough, in my opinion, to pull the trigger.

    So what's going to give?

    Did you hear? The 9th edition of the Twins Prospect Handbook is coming out on Wednesday. If you plug the code FWD15 in at checkout, you'll get 15% off. Want to buy a few? Get 20% off five or more books with the code SPACE20.

    Get Another Prospect or Two

    The Dodgers reportedly are holding steadfast in that they won't budge from not including other highly-regarded prospects like Yadier Alvarez or Cody Bellinger. But they've shown a "willingness" to include De Leon. A package that includes De Leon and Stewart is a good start. So who else could they look to include?

    Willie Calhoun - Calhoun is fashioned as a power-hitting left-handed-hitting second baseman. That might cause you to raise a red flag because that's ultimately Jorge Polanco's home. No problem, though, because Calhoun isn't going to stick at second base. His future is likely in left field, where he'd be limited by his lack of speed and arm, only because a 5' 6" first baseman isn't realistic. I wouldn't love Calhoun to be included, but his bat is an asset and assets are what the Twins need to close the deal.

    Jordan Sheffield - Getting another arm would be wise and Sheffield has a pretty powerful one (which includes a remade UCL). The Twins liked Sheffield - but didn't love him - coming out of Vanderbilt and there are questions about whether he profiles as a starter or not. But guys that can hit 98 don't just fall off trees and getting him as a third piece wouldn't be a terrible thing.

    Trevor Oaks - Oaks profiles as a groundball pitcher who could be a back end starter/middle relief option. There's nothing sexy about him but adding a (good) Nick Blackburn-type would be an acceptable third piece.

    Lottery Tickets - The Dodgers have been very active in international free agency the past few years and maybe the Twins could pry away either Ronny Brito, SS or Starling Heredia, OF. Just 17 and neither having made their US debut yet, both prospects have high ceilings but a long way to go. Brito is a defensive wizard who has questions about his bat. Heredia is a big-bodied power hitter who will end up in a corner.

    It might go without saying, though, that if the Dodgers were willing to include any of these guys and the Twins were willing to seal the deal with the inclusion of any of these guy that the deal would already be done.

    So now let's get more creative.

    International Spending Money - The new CBA revamps how and what teams can spend. Hard caps. Pools are much more even.

    For example, the Twins, despite having the #1 overall pick in the draft, get no advantage in the international free agent (IFA) market for being the worst team. Because they receive revenue sharing, they will receive a competitive balance pick and extra IFA money. Every team will have a pool of at least a minimum of $4.75 million. The Twins, who get an extra pick after the first round, will have a pool of $5.25 million. There are eight teams who have pools of $5.75 million. The Dodgers fit in the group that has $4.75 million to spend.

    So where am I going with this?

    The Dodgers are still stuck with the penalties of going over their spending limit in 2015. They can't sign any player for more than $300,000. Maybe they could send some money to the Twins? The Twins could add up to $3,937,500 to their pool. The Dodgers love to spend money, so maybe they'll just spend it all on $300,000 guys... or maybe they could cough up $1.75 million to the Twins, who would then have $7 million and the ability to throw their weight around in that market as the team with the most money. Rules prohibit pool money from being traded until the market opens on July 2, so it would have to called "future considerations."

    Take On Bad Money - The Dodgers will always flirt with the luxury tax threshold. With only 13 players under contract for 2017, they are already at $200 million in commitments. They have eight arbitration-eligible players who are projected to get around $16 million. If the four players who fill out the roster all make the minimum, they're looking at a payroll that is nearly $220 million.

    The way the CBA reads, the Dodgers would face a 50% penalty on the overage (the limit is $195 million for the upcoming season) which would cost them $12.5 million. In addition to that, they'd be forced to pay an additional 12% on any dollar over $215 million, which is another $600,000. And that's assuming the Dodgers payroll is only $220 million. It will likely be greater. At $240 million? More penalties. It could almost get to the point where the Dodgers are forced to pay $2 for every $1 they spend over $195 million.

    So a team, like the Twins, could take on $10 million dollars and save the Dodgers $20 million. You know what could encourage a team to take on money? More prospects.

    How could the Twins take on money, you ask?

    Brandon McCarthy - McCarthy has two years at $10 million each left on his contract plus a team option. McCarthy has only made 13 starts in the last two seasons due to having Tommy John surgery. He's only 33 and not too far removed from being a pretty good pitcher.

    Erisbel Arruebarrena - The Cuban shortstop is a defensive wizard but has been suspended for much of the last two seasons. He's owed $9 million over the next two years. I'm not interested in adding the player - mostly cause I don't know what his issues are - but I'd take on his money to add another prospect (like Sheffield). The Dodgers, in turn, would save up to nearly $18 million of dead-weight.

    Yaisel Sierra - Another Cuban, the right-handed pitcher has been a huge disappointment after signing a six-year, $30 million contract in February. He only lasted on the 40-man until the beginning of July and struggled at both high-A and AA. He's still on the hook for five years and $23 million. But he could still prove to be a serviceable arm. While that money is an albatross for the Dodgers - and costing them nearly $50 million - it could be worth taking on for the Twins... if the Dodgers are willing to throw more in.

    Of course, this is all based on the assumption that the Dodgers care about wasting money (and they might not).

    Brian Dozier (who's owed $6 million and $9 million for the next two years) for Jose De Leon, Brock Stewart, the contracts of McCarthy or Sierra and Arruebarrena (who are owed $6.5 million and $8.5 million the next two years), Calhoun and/or Sheffield and some IFA money in July would be a creative way to get a deal done.

    Is it enough? Is it fair?

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    Gibson was one of the worst pitchers in baseball last year, he doesn't throw very hard and doesn't strike people out. He doesn't have any real trade value.

     

    Both of those are because of his sinker usage. He gets plenty of swings and misses on his change and slider; if only he'd use them to put guys away.

     

    But I agree, no GM would give the Twins value for him based on what he could do if he pitched correctly. He'll have to pitch correctly and show results first to gain any value.

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    http://dodgerblue.com/would-brian-dozier-twins-trade-prove-too-costly-dodgers-prospects/2016/12/29/

     

    Here a dodgers writer writes that they could trade Calhoun, JDL, and Stewart or

    Sheffield for Dozier and Kintzler. He makes it seem like Kintzler has some value. This seems like a reasonable trade.

     

    I'm more than willing to include Kintzler to gain any kind of increased return.

     

    But after two consecutive posts denouncing it I should probably come clean and admit that I'm unreasonably in favor of banning the sinker from the Twins clubhouse.

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    Agree about the need for creativity.  The Dodgers need to shed payroll after 2017, so the Twins can be creative with that part.

     

    I do not want another 33 year old pitcher.  Makes zero sense for a rebuilding team; however, I'd like to see if the Dodgers would be interested in swapping LHP Hyun-Jin Ryu (30 years old, under contract for both 2017 & 2018 for $7.8M each) for Hector Santiago (29, last year of arbitration, FA after 2017).  Also would the Dodgers be interested in flipping Puig  (26, 2 years of control at $8.2M and $9.2M) for Grossman (27, 4 years of control, last pre-arbritration year).   This way it looks like $16M and $17M off the books for the Dodgers for the next couple seasons.  

     

    Another guy I like from the Dodgers is 28 year old Pedro Báez who is under club control for 4 years and has closer material, but the Dodgers already have a closer.

     

    So I would not mind seeing:

     

    Dozier + Santiago + Grossman for DeLeon + Ryu + Puig + Báez with no $ exchanging hands. 

     

    I am just afraid that Dozier will return to the player we know next season.  The Twins have just to sell high...

    Edited by Thrylos
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    Between Kendrick, Ethier, Guerrero and Crawford, I think the Dodgers shed around 50M after 2017 season. Then another 23M after the 2018 season when AGone is gone.

    Edited by jimmer
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    Between Kendrick, Ethier, Guerrero and Crawford, I think the Dodgers shed around 50M after 2017 season. Then another 23M after the 2018 season when AGone is gone.

    Ryu too
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    Agree about the need for creativity. The Dodgers need to shed payroll after 2017, so the Twins can be creative with that part.

     

    I do not want another 33 year old pitcher. Makes zero sense for a rebuilding team; however, I'd like to see if the Dodgers would be interested in swapping LHP Hyun-Jin Ryu (30 years old, under contract for both 2017 & 2018 for $7.8M each) for Hector Santiago (29, last year of arbitration, FA after 2017). Also would the Dodgers be interested in flipping Puig (26, 2 years of control at $8.2M and $9.2M) for Grossman (27, 4 years of control, last pre-arbritration year). This way it looks like $16M and $17M off the books for the Dodgers for the next couple seasons.

     

    Another guy I like from the Dodgers is 28 year old Pedro Báez who is under club control for 4 years and has closer material, but the Dodgers already have a closer.

     

    So I would not mind seeing:

     

    Dozier + Santiago + Grossman for DeLeon + Ryu + Puig + Báez with no $ exchanging hands.

     

    I am just afraid that Dozier will return to the player we know next season. The Twins have just to sell high...

    I think they are trying to add a reliever, not trade away.

     

    And watching Baez pitch will make you want to gouge your eyes out. Can't imagine would it would be like with him as a closer.

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    Pedro Baez might be tough to watch and meh as a pitcher, but he'd easily be the Twins best reliever. With 4 years of control, that's valuable for a team like the Twins.

    Edited by doscinco
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    Agree about the need for creativity.  The Dodgers need to shed payroll after 2017, so the Twins can be creative with that part.

     

    I do not want another 33 year old pitcher.  Makes zero sense for a rebuilding team; however, I'd like to see if the Dodgers would be interested in swapping LHP Hyun-Jin Ryu (30 years old, under contract for both 2017 & 2018 for $7.8M each) for Hector Santiago (29, last year of arbitration, FA after 2017).  Also would the Dodgers be interested in flipping Puig  (26, 2 years of control at $8.2M and $9.2M) for Grossman (27, 4 years of control, last pre-arbritration year).   This way it looks like $16M and $17M off the books for the Dodgers for the next couple seasons.  

     

    Another guy I like from the Dodgers is 28 year old Pedro Báez who is under club control for 4 years and has closer material, but the Dodgers already have a closer.

     

    So I would not mind seeing:

     

    Dozier + Santiago + Grossman for DeLeon + Ryu + Puig + Báez with no $ exchanging hands. 

     

    I am just afraid that Dozier will return to the player we know next season.  The Twins have just to sell high...

    Really good thought on this one. It seems far fetched but I like the idea of swapping Santiago for Ryu and love the idea of Grossman for Puig, this is assuming hopefully the Dodgers wanna get rid of Puig which could be likely. But like other posts said I don't think the Dodgers wanna get rid of bullpen pitching.

    So maybe this is a little better,

    Dozier, Santiago, Grossman, Kintzler

    for

    JDL, Ryu, Puig, Stewart or Buehler, and Calhoun(just cuz it seems like the dodgers fan seem very willing to get rid of him)

    This is all very unlikely as trades like this never go down and there is a lot of stuff to work through, but its fun to think about!

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    Would you have traded Harmon Killebrew for a possible back end starter that has never won in the Bigs in 1965?

     

    Didn't think so.

     

    Dozier has OF/1B/3B power as a decent middle infielder. He gets two possible "soon to  right now" starters or we bat him 3rd all next year.

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    Would you have traded Harmon Killebrew for a possible back end starter that has never won in the Bigs in 1965?

     

    Didn't think so.

     

    Dozier has OF/1B/3B power as a decent middle infielder. He gets two possible "soon to  right now" starters or we bat him 3rd all next year.

     

     

    Harmon Killebrew and Brian Dozier do not belong in the same area code...

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    Would you have traded Harmon Killebrew for a possible back end starter that has never won in the Bigs in 1965?

     

    Didn't think so.

     

    Dozier has OF/1B/3B power as a decent middle infielder. He gets two possible "soon to right now" starters or we bat him 3rd all next year.

    The 1964 Twins didn't lose 103 games. In fact, while they only won 79, they were coming off consecutive 91 win seasons in 1962-63 so they very much expected to contend in 1965.

     

    Killebrew had a career 142 OPS+ at that point. Dozier's is 108. His 137 last year represented a career high. Through 1964, Killebrew was on a steak of 6 consecutive seasons at or above that mark.

     

    Due to the rules at the time,

    Killebrew's playing rights were the permanent property of the Twins, on year to year contracts at a salary essentially of the teams choosing (just enough to keep him from holding out or retiring). Dozier is guaranteed $15 mil for the next two seasons thanks to arbitration rights which did not exist for Killebrew, after which he is guaranteed free agency, another right which obviously did not exist for Killebrew (and indeed would not come to MLB until after Killebrew retired).

     

    I will also keep in mind your description of a top ~10 MLB pitching prospect as "a possible back end starter that has never won in the Bigs" for the next time the Twins have such a player. Something tells me you won't be so dismissive of the asset when it belongs to your club...

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    http://dodgerblue.com/would-brian-dozier-twins-trade-prove-too-costly-dodgers-prospects/2016/12/29/

     

    Here a dodgers writer writes that they could trade Calhoun, JDL, and Stewart or

    Sheffield for Dozier and Kintzler. He makes it seem like Kintzler has some value. This seems like a reasonable trade.

     

    This means Alvarez would be on the table like Dave said in the first place. Calhoun is technically a higher rated prospect.

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    Kintzler has some value and Dodgers are looking for a cheap reliever.

    I would include him if it firmed up a third piece in addition to JDL and Alvarez.

     

    So add Kintzler to deal and then maybe sign Sergio Romo or someone else to close because I don't know what to expect from Perkins.

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    So add Kintzler to deal and then maybe sign Sergio Romo or someone else to close because I don't know what to expect from Perkins.

    I would sign at least one vet reliever either way, but would certainly get behind Romo.

     

    Feliz has been mentioned, I like Casilla, and Holland could be that guy too. Probably a few others as well.

     

    Anyone with upside or looking to reestablish value as a closer, on a one or two year deal, that could get flipped at the deadline.

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    This means Alvarez would be on the table like Dave said in the first place. Calhoun is technically a higher rated prospect.

    Depends on the source. Certainly not at Fangraphs. Also "higher rated" doesn't necessarily mean more valuable, depending on the context. Ceiling might be more valuable to some teams/situations than floor. Alvarez in particular seems to have a much higher ceiling, while Calhoun would have the higher floor.

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    Killebrew and Dozier may not be good comps in terms of lifetime stats, or F-wars, but I tell you what:

     

    I saw Killebrew play, and not many people realize he was only 5'11'.  How tall is Dozier?

     

    And, really, if you watch their swings, what stands out is the twist in the lower torso.  Not a lot of movement, but sudden twist at the end, and of course, the strong top-hand.  Pull, pull, pull.  Out of the park to left-field, high and long and deep.

     

    I've been saying it for awhile, so I will say it again:  Dozier's closest cousin on the Twins' club's long player list is Harmon Killebrew.  And sure enough, he is the next player after Killer to crush 40HRs.

     

    You don't trade that for some jazzy LA maybe's.  Not ever.

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    Killebrew and Dozier may not be good comps in terms of lifetime stats, or F-wars, but I tell you what:

     

    I saw Killebrew play, and not many people realize he was only 5'11'.  How tall is Dozier?

     

    And, really, if you watch their swings, what stands out is the twist in the lower torso.  Not a lot of movement, but sudden twist at the end, and of course, the strong top-hand.  Pull, pull, pull.  Out of the park to left-field, high and long and deep.

     

    I've been saying it for awhile, so I will say it again:  Dozier's closest cousin on the Twins' club's long player list is Harmon Killebrew.  And sure enough, he is the next player after Killer to crush 40HRs.

     

    You don't trade that for some jazzy LA maybe's.  Not ever.

    A much better idea to see him leave after two seasons and get nothing.

     

    And Dozier isn't close to what Killebrew was.  Dozier is 30 early into next season and has had one season with a wRC+ over 120.

     

    Killebrew was 23 when he had his first season with a wRC+ over 120 and then he had 13 more in a row. All 14 of those seasons, Harmon had a higher wRC+ than Dozier just did in his career year. In fact, Harmon's career wRC+ is 10 points higher than Dozier's was during his career season.

    Edited by jimmer
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    A much better idea to see him leave after two seasons and get nothing.

     

    And Dozier isn't close to what Killebrew was.  Dozier is 30 early into next season and has had one season with a wRC+ over 120.

     

    Killebrew was 23 when he had his first season with a wRC+ over 120 and then he had 13 more in a row. All 14 of those seasons, Harmon had a higher wRC+ than Dozier just did in his career year. In fact, Harmon's career wRC+ is 10 points higher than Dozier's was during his career season.

     

    Yeah, I get that, which is why I said at the beginning:  They are not good comps in terms of stats.

     

    I'm talking physical, statuesque, RH swingers who pull the ball.  That's all. 

     

    They don't grow on trees, with the strong top-hand.  If Dozier could hit homers with men on base, bat fourth, and play first base, I'd call him Killer to my friends.

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    Both of those are because of his sinker usage. He gets plenty of swings and misses on his change and slider; if only he'd use them to put guys away.

     

    But I agree, no GM would give the Twins value for him based on what he could do if he pitched correctly. He'll have to pitch correctly and show results first to gain any value.

    Personally, I think Gibson gets a bad rap because of his down...and injury plagued...2016. For the two seasons before he was solid and showed improvement from '14 to '15. I would fully expect, at this time, to see a different and healthy Gibson in 2017 that looks like the '15 version, perhaps even better. But I sometimes feel like he doesn't trust himself or his stuff. If you remember many years ago, Viola had a problem of nibbling too much. Despite not having tremendous heat or big time SO potential, Viola was suddenly convinced that he was indeed a power pitcher, and not a "crafty" LH and needed to trust his stuff.

     

    Now, I'm not saying Gibson is another Viola waiting to happen at all. But whether he doesn't trust the players behind him, or his own stuff, I feel he just doesn't attack the zone and ends up nibbling too much, trying to be perfect.

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    After the 2015 season, I pointed out in here that I had thought Gibson had gotten worse compared to how he did in 2014 and I highly recommended trading him while he still might have some value and we could get some sucker to take him off our hands. I had him and Rosario as the players who would disappoint the most based on some people's expectations.

     

    And then 2016 happened and now we are stuck with him (until/unless the FO does a Plouffe on him next offseason).

    Edited by jimmer
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    I think there is a reasonable chance (~30%) that Gibson has a better ERA than Santana next year. He was better in 2015, their xFIPs were 0.29 apart last year and I think Castro will have more influence on Gibson's performance. It is likely Santana will move towards his xFIP and possible Gibson towards his 2015 line. Santana still should have the edge as he will go deeper in games and pitch more innings but their projections will probably be close.

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    All the prospect lists. Baseball America. MLB.com. Etc. That's why I always laugh when they say he's "x" on this and this prospect list. They are useless. Calhoun is trash

    Not sure he's "trash," but I definitely agree he is very overrated.

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    Not sure he's "trash," but I definitely agree he is very overrated.

    Some sites ranks guys higher when they are closer to the majors (like MLB.COM).

     

    Baseball America (along with many sites) haven't even released their pre-2017 listings yet (I think it's good to wait to quote sites rankings after they take into account what the players did in 2016), but post 2016 season, Fangraphs has him #6 Dodgers prospect and Alvarez #1. 

    Edited by jimmer
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    Killebrew and Dozier may not be good comps in terms of lifetime stats, or F-wars, but I tell you what:

     

    I saw Killebrew play, and not many people realize he was only 5'11'.  How tall is Dozier?

     

    And, really, if you watch their swings, what stands out is the twist in the lower torso.  Not a lot of movement, but sudden twist at the end, and of course, the strong top-hand.  Pull, pull, pull.  Out of the park to left-field, high and long and deep.

     

    I've been saying it for awhile, so I will say it again:  Dozier's closest cousin on the Twins' club's long player list is Harmon Killebrew.  And sure enough, he is the next player after Killer to crush 40HRs.

     

    You don't trade that for some jazzy LA maybe's.  Not ever.

    Which is my point. 40 HR hitters are extremely rare these days. You see a lot of people who want to trade for a couple unprovens. I don't think so.  If the Twins had a couple other HR guys, maybe we could afford to lose  power. Thing is, the Twins should not be batting their best power producer leadoff, and one of their least powerful bats third. Its bass ackwards. 

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    The 1964 Twins didn't lose 103 games. In fact, while they only won 79, they were coming off consecutive 91 win seasons in 1962-63 so they very much expected to contend in 1965.

    Killebrew had a career 142 OPS+ at that point. Dozier's is 108. His 137 last year represented a career high. Through 1964, Killebrew was on a steak of 6 consecutive seasons at or above that mark.

    Due to the rules at the time,
    Killebrew's playing rights were the permanent property of the Twins, on year to year contracts at a salary essentially of the teams choosing (just enough to keep him from holding out or retiring). Dozier is guaranteed $15 mil for the next two seasons thanks to arbitration rights which did not exist for Killebrew, after which he is guaranteed free agency, another right which obviously did not exist for Killebrew (and indeed would not come to MLB until after Killebrew retired).

    I will also keep in mind your description of a top ~10 MLB pitching prospect as "a possible back end starter that has never won in the Bigs" for the next time the Twins have such a player. Something tells me you won't be so dismissive of the asset when it belongs to your club...

    Much of your reply misses my point completely.  40 HR guys are extremely rare. Unlike Killer, Doze can play defense and run. He is a 5 tool infielder. 

     

    Prospects mean the same as potential. "You ain't done anything yet"

     

    And it doesn't matter what Brew's era in baseball was like. My point is you don't trade a top player in all of baseball for a bag of magic beans.

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    Much of your reply misses my point completely.  40 HR guys are extremely rare. Unlike Killer, Doze can play defense and run. He is a 5 tool infielder. 

     

    Prospects mean the same as potential. "You ain't done anything yet"

     

    And it doesn't matter what Brew's era in baseball was like. My point is you don't trade a top player in all of baseball for a bag of magic beans.

    40 HR guys are so rare, Dozier himself has done it only once in four full seasons!  Actually that was his only time breaking the 30 HR mark too.

     

    The point about Killebrew's era is that, even if Dozier is a true 40 HR, 5 tool infielder, he's gone from Minnesota in 2 years anyway (or very expensive if we manage to keep him).  That was never a consideration for the Twins about Killebrew.  Plus, the Twins of that era were never as bad as the 2016 team, meaning their outlook for contention was generally much better than that of the 2017-2018 Twins.

     

    If Dozier was cheaply controlled in perpetuity like Killebrew was, or if the Twins were coming off even a .500-ish season in 2016, I guarantee we wouldn't be discussing a potential trade much if at all.  This isn't about Dozier's performance as much as it is about the Twins and his pending free agency.

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    Oddly, teams can't deal International money until after July 2.....not sure how they get around that, frankly.

    I think trades have 6 months to be fully settled if they involve PTBNL or cash considerations.  So a deal consummated now could include considerations decided on July 2nd.

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    I think trades have 6 months to be fully settled if they involve PTBNL or cash considerations. So a deal consummated now could include considerations decided on July 2nd.

    It's a stupid rule, if you want teams to be able to plan....

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