Minnesota's Misuse of Meyer?

Seth Stohs · May 4, 2016

As I've said elsewhere, I want him starting. He isn't going to start with the Twins, so he needs to start in Rochester. We (Twins fans) and more important, the Twins brass, needs to find out if Meyer can be the guy he showed through his first 3 appearances (17.1 innings), or if he's closer to what we saw in 2015. With the kind of upside and potential he has, thanks to that big fastball and devastating curveball, I'm willing to give him more time in Rochester starting before throwing him in the back of the bullpen.

Monkeypaws · May 4, 2016

From this fan's perspective, they are clearly crapping the bed with this guy. I can't even call him a kid he's been around so long.

OTOH, perhaps they know something we don't. Still, that was a half-arsed excuse of giving him a chance last night.

amiller92 · May 4, 2016

I don't understand this criticism. When camp broke, Meyer was sent to AAA for another chance at starting. He got called up because two starting pitchers were hurt. One of them is coming back, so he's going back. What's the complaint?

Are you saying you think he was called up with the expectation he would get to stay up when Santana returned from injury? Why?

nytwinsfan · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 7:52 PM, Seth Stohs said:
As I've said elsewhere, I want him starting. He isn't going to start with the Twins, so he needs to start in Rochester. We (Twins fans) and more important, the Twins brass, needs to find out if Meyer can be the guy he showed through his first 3 appearances (17.1 innings), or if he's closer to what we saw in 2015. With the kind of upside and potential he has, thanks to that big fastball and devastating curveball, I'm willing to give him more time in Rochester starting before throwing him in the back of the bullpen.

My biggest problem was not necessarily with them sending him down (although as you see below, that is a problem for me too), but pulling him when they did during the game. It made zero sense and will probably mess with his confidence, which is the last thing he needs. But in addition to that, why can't he pitch for the Twins now? Really, why? Because Milone and/or Nolasco might have to go to the bullpen? Who cares. Milone, Nolasco and Terry Ryan's ego are the only ones who care. And I frankly don't give a crap about any of those three things. Sorry. What's best for the Twins over the next couple years is to give Meyer a chance to be a starter AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL, where he can struggle with the difficulties of it and show that he is or is not ready to be a starter. That's all I care about. Not some 5th starter's ego, and certainly not Terry Ryan's. A quality GM wouldn't care about those three things either.

bluechipper · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 7:55 PM, amiller92 said:
I don't understand this criticism. When camp broke, Meyer was sent to AAA for another chance at starting. He got called up because two starting pitchers were hurt. One of them is coming back, so he's going back. What's the complaint?

Are you saying you think he was called up with the expectation he would get to stay up when Santana returned from injury? Why?

The criticism is that Meyer wasn't really given a normal chance to show what he can do. He sat in the bullpen for a week, and then when he did get his "chance", he was prematurely pulled from his start.

bluechipper · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 8:10 PM, nytwinsfan said:
My biggest problem was not necessarily with them sending him down (although as you see below, that is a problem for me too), but pulling him when they did during the game. It made zero sense and will probably mess with his confidence, which is the last thing he needs. But in addition to that, why can't he pitch for the Twins now? Really, why? Because Milone and/or Nolasco might have to go to the bullpen? Who cares. Milone, Nolasco and Terry Ryan's ego are the only ones who care. And I frankly don't give a crap about any of those three things. Sorry. What's best for the Twins over the next couple years is to give Meyer a chance to be a starter AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL, where he can struggle with the difficulties of it and show that he is or is not ready to be a starter. That's all I care about. Not some 5th starter's ego, and certainly not Terry Ryan's. A quality GM wouldn't care about those three things either.

To be fair, Nolasco probably deserves some more starts after his decent performance so far. He's a hanging curveball away from having a really good start to the season.

DocBauer · May 4, 2016

Outstanding nytwinsfan!

Look, with Santana healthy and ready to come back, OK, I don't like it but I get it, time to send Meyer down. But like NY says, "why?" Who is he really blocking for our future? Why was he brought up to collect splinters for days on end before his relief appearance? Why was he pulled after settling down and getting 2 outs in the third, especially when they said he wasn't on a specific pitch limit?

Maybe he gets shelled. Maybe he gets the 3rd out, then has a solid 4,5, maybe even 6th inning. But we'll never know now will we.

You don't want 3 youngsters like Meyer, Berrios and Duffey all starting at once? OK, say that, send one down for now, start the other two. But stop the yo-yo garbage.

nytwinsfan · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 8:18 PM, bluechipper said:
To be fair, Nolasco probably deserves some more starts after his decent performance so far. He's a hanging curveball away from having a really good start to the season.

Agreed, he deserves some more starts. So put Gibson (who has been dreadful) in the pen for a few weeks. See if focusing on a few innings brings him back up to his norm. Or trade Nolasco and he can get those deserved starts somewhere else. Throw in a C or even B prospect and get him off the books. I'm just so sick of losing with veterans. If we are going to lose, at least do it with the young guys who have the chance to struggle and learn and reach their potential. That way maybe we won't have to lose with veterans again in 2017.

Edited May 4, 2016 by nytwinsfan

tobi0040 · May 4, 2016

The top three arms on the 40 man are Berrios, May, and Meyer. Let them all fail as starters before moving them to the pen.

Han Joelo · May 4, 2016

My normally pacifist nature towards management has been tested by the quick hook last night. I assume he already had his ticket to Rochester printed, but it looked like Molitor wanted to make sure he had plenty of time to get to the airport.

TR has as much at stake with Meyer as anybody he's signed or traded for. I hope Meyer goes back into the rotation at Rochester and is ready for the next call up. He'll undoubtedly be needed again.

Seth Stohs · May 4, 2016

Hughes is in the rotation.

Santana is coming off the DL on Saturday to start. He's in the rotation.

Nolasco deserves more starts.

Milone was already sent to the bullpen.

Berrios is in his spot.

Gibson is on the DL. Duffey is in his spot, so when Gibson comes off the DL, likely Berrios or Duffey get sent down, unless something else happens.

Meyer is only 26. Contrary to popular belief, that isn't old. For me, as I've said, I would love to see him make it as a starter, and I believe he can.

amiller92 · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 8:14 PM, bluechipper said:
The criticism is that Meyer wasn't really given a normal chance to show what he can do. He sat in the bullpen for a week, and then when he did get his "chance", he was prematurely pulled from his start.

He wasn't up for a chance. He was up for a spot start.

tobi0040 · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 8:42 PM, Seth Stohs said:
I would love to see him make it as a starter, and I believe he can.

Through two innings he was filthy at times. Gas and knee buckling breaking balls. The HR was a double and then two base runners and the camera pans out to Milone warming up.

I think it is safe to say our manager does not have the same opinion as you and I. If you believe in a guy and want him to succeed and/or feel an obligation to the franchise to find out what you have, you don't fire the pen up there. There isn't another Twins starter that would have been yanked that soon.

operation mindcrime · May 4, 2016

I would love to see him make it as a starter, but I don't believe he will! \m/

Don Walcott · May 4, 2016

I agree with everyone above that he was yanked to early in his first start. And for what? Milone? Did anyone think Milone was going to come in and shut things down for the Twins to stay in the game? At this point, Milone should be on mop-up duty or cut from the team.

I have been supportive of Molitor on other topics, but that was poor game management. Molitor is beginning to rack up questionable decisions with the pitching staff.

As far as long-term for Alex Meyer, I think it probably is best for him to start in AAA and absolutely dominate for an extended period of time. I hope that happens, and that the Twins don't jerk him around the next time he's earned his opportunity to start in the big leagues. His stuff was nasty, and after two innings I thought he'd be in there through the sixth. I still think he could have gone five if they hadn't pulled him.

nytwinsfan · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 8:53 PM, tobi0040 said:
Through two innings he was filthy at times. Gas and knee buckling breaking balls. The HR was a double and then two base runners and the camera pans out to Milone warming up.

I think it is safe to say our manager does not have the same opinion as you and I. If you believe in a guy and want him to succeed and/or feel an obligation to the franchise to find out what you have, you don't fire the pen up there. There isn't another Twins starter that would have been yanked that soon.

This is the heart of it, right here. It is unreasonable not to agree with this 100% imo.

USAFChief · May 4, 2016

Provided he has success in Rochester, he'll get another opportunity in Minnesota. It's a long season and a rotation spot will open up.

Personally I don't like his chances of harnessing his stuff and being a good big league starter, so I'd bite the bullet, put him in the pen, and hope to have him up and contributing in a month.

But I understand the lure of hoping for a dominant starter, so I can see why others might choose that route. Either way, I'm not that upset with this past week. He got an opportunity--not a long one, but an opportunity--and crapped the bed. Twice.

Go down and earn more opportunity. If he's truly ready, that should be a snap.

darin617 · May 4, 2016

Come on think about it, Santana is getting activated on Saturday so why not call up a relief pitcher for a couple of days and maybe you dump a different pitcher when you activate Sanatna.

diehardtwinsfan · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 7:52 PM, Seth Stohs said:
As I've said elsewhere, I want him starting. He isn't going to start with the Twins, so he needs to start in Rochester. We (Twins fans) and more important, the Twins brass, needs to find out if Meyer can be the guy he showed through his first 3 appearances (17.1 innings), or if he's closer to what we saw in 2015. With the kind of upside and potential he has, thanks to that big fastball and devastating curveball, I'm willing to give him more time in Rochester starting before throwing him in the back of the bullpen.

Pretty much this. They should give him every chance they can to start. If he keeps putting up those numbers in Rochester, he's going to force the issue, and I would add that as bad as the Twins have been this season, you'll likely see some trades opening up spots for guys like Meyer, Berrios, Duffey, and May at some point. Send him to the pen when he fails as a starter, but given how well he's been thus far, you keep throwing him out every 5 days.

The mis-management in my opinion is not Meyer's start. It certainly wasn't ideal, but hardly unusual as there are a lot of circumstances outside of the team's control.

The mis-management was coveting those mediocre pieces that are nothing more than depth (i.e. Tommy Milone, who should have been shipped away this offseason for anything) in conjunction with not using the money saved from sending Milone away to bolster the pen.

With Duffey and Berrios in AAA, lesser options who performed well in Rogers and Dean in AAA, and May's success as a starter, shipping off one asset (even if the return was going to be little) was hardly unreasonable.... and that's before Meyer's resurgence. Sure, there would be some musical chairs in the 5th starter spot, but again that is hardly unusual and with the talent they have in AAA, a wise thing to do.

Hopefully, the Twins learn from this mistake and send Rickey (assuming he continues to pitch well) and Tommy away. They won't get much, if we're lucky a C prospect, but they will open up needed spots for some of the young guys with little left to prove in AAA.

Bark's Lounge · May 4, 2016

I don't think Meyer is a lost cause. He sort of strikes me as a guy who, when he has his spells of wildness and inefficiency, it mentally racks him and drags him down. To me this is the greatest concern to me about this guy. He won't make it as a starter or reliever in MLB if what I am saying ends up being true and cannot be changed.

At this point, I would be tremendously happy if he could eventually make an impact as a starter or reliever.

Go Guy Go!

Seth Stohs · May 4, 2016

There are plenty of reasons to question Molitor and Ryan... I don't think this Meyer decision is really one of them.

DocBauer · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 10:01 PM, diehardtwinsfan said:
Pretty much this. They should give him every chance they can to start. If he keeps putting up those numbers in Rochester, he's going to force the issue, and I would add that as bad as the Twins have been this season, you'll likely see some trades opening up spots for guys like Meyer, Berrios, Duffey, and May at some point. Send him to the pen when he fails as a starter, but given how well he's been thus far, you keep throwing him out every 5 days.

The mis-management in my opinion is not Meyer's start. It certainly wasn't ideal, but hardly unusual as there are a lot of circumstances outside of the team's control.

The mis-management was coveting those mediocre pieces that are nothing more than depth (i.e. Tommy Milone, who should have been shipped away this offseason for anything) in conjunction with not using the money saved from sending Milone away to bolster the pen.

With Duffey and Berrios in AAA, lesser options who performed well in Rogers and Dean in AAA, and May's success as a starter, shipping off one asset (even if the return was going to be little) was hardly unreasonable.... and that's before Meyer's resurgence. Sure, there would be some musical chairs in the 5th starter spot, but again that is hardly unusual and with the talent they have in AAA, a wise thing to do.

Hopefully, the Twins learn from this mistake and send Rickey (assuming he continues to pitch well) and Tommy away. They won't get much, if we're lucky a C prospect, but they will open up needed spots for some of the young guys with little left to prove in AAA.

Pretty much this.

I did a nicely responded to, but somewhat quickly faded post referencing "blowing up" the roster, and when it should take place this season. And I feel we're making a lot of the same points again on here. Points that seem simplistic in the rather obviousness of their nature.

If the team is not going to contend...and right now we're not even overly confident about a winning record...then the FO needs to make room for the future of this team. Nolasco and Milone, for example, are NOT part of the future of this team. It's not personal, it's just a fact.

And at this point, or at some point this season, Meyer, Duffey and Berrios, for instance, will be pounding on and kicking in the door that they are ready, (or ready again) for their opportunity. Whether it means taking back a lower level, marginal prospect, throwing in some of the remaining contract dollars or something similar, guys have to be moved.

You can't build up a milb system that is one of the best in baseball, keep them, (as in not trade them), and just never promote them.

jokin · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 7:52 PM, Seth Stohs said:
As I've said elsewhere, I want him starting. He isn't going to start with the Twins, so he needs to start in Rochester. We (Twins fans) and more important, the Twins brass, needs to find out if Meyer can be the guy he showed through his first 3 appearances (17.1 innings), or if he's closer to what we saw in 2015. With the kind of upside and potential he has, thanks to that big fastball and devastating curveball, I'm willing to give him more time in Rochester starting before throwing him in the back of the bullpen.

Huh? He spent all of 2014 in AAA and dominated, have we completely forgotten that he was perhaps the top SP that year in the IL? Spent a retraining/refining year in AAA last year, probably in the wake of a late-season shoulder injury suffered in 2014. So now we're saying spending a 3rd year in AAA as a starter is the answer? It appears that he's healthy again, he just needs major league experience. WHY, OH WHY should he languish for a good part of a Third Year in AAA with his stuff? There is nothing left to learn at that level. Get him up here the way the Cards have brought up their best prospect arms- ie, in any capacity possible- the Cards understand the concept of a finite amount of bullets in the weapon.

Mike Sixel · May 4, 2016

I think they did not set him up for success, given the rest and then short relief appearance, then the start. The job of any leader is to set her employees up for success. The twins, imo, did not do that in the last two weeks. I am still waiting for any sign Molitor knows what he is doing

Richie the Rally Goat · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 7:55 PM, amiller92 said:
I don't understand this criticism. When camp broke, Meyer was sent to AAA for another chance at starting. He got called up because two starting pitchers were hurt. One of them is coming back, so he's going back. What's the complaint?

Are you saying you think he was called up with the expectation he would get to stay up when Santana returned from injury? Why?

you need a starting pitcher and wait 9 days to give him one start where he only threw sixty-some pitches. We've seen what Hughes can do, still don't have much of an indication of what Meyer can do, but it would be nice to find out if Meyer can put it together at the bigs what he's shown in stretches in the minors.

Seth Stohs · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 10:40 PM, jokin said:
Huh? He spent all of 2014 in AAA and dominated, have we completely forgotten that he was perhaps the top SP that year in the IL? Spent a retraining/refining year in AAA last year, probably in the wake of a late-season shoulder injury suffered in 2014. So now we're saying spending a 3rd year in AAA as a starter is the answer? It appears that he's healthy again, he just needs major league experience. WHY, OH WHY should he languish for a good part of a Third Year in AAA with his stuff? There is nothing left to learn at that level. Get him up here the way the Cards have brought up their best prospect arms- ie, in any capacity possible- the Cards understand the concept of a finite amount of bullets in the weapon.

He was great as a starter in 2014 there... He was really, really bad there in 2015... So, I think it's OK for him to get the third year there... I love that he's back starting. I think his first three appearances as a starter give enough reason for optimism that keeping him starting is the way to go. But he's not Berrios, and he hasn't been Duffey, and the rest of the staff is set right now. So, let him go to AAA and keep starting and show that the three outings weren't a fluke. If it's not, they'll make room, and he'll get another shot. If so, well, then move him to the bullpen.

Of course there is stuff to learn at AAA For him. He would be the first to tell you that (although I assume I just beat him to it?). The guys the Cardinals call up had control and command when called up. Totally different situation. There's nothing hurting him by being in Rochester.

Seth Stohs · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 10:44 PM, Mike Sixel said:
I think they did not set him up for success, given the rest and then short relief appearance, then the start. The job of any leader is to set her employees up for success. The twins, imo, did not do that in the last two weeks. I am still waiting for any sign Molitor knows what he is doing

I don't even disagree with this, and yet, not to make excuses, but the situation and the needs completely changed while he was up there. They had to adjust. And, once they put him into the rotation (for a spot start), they had to adjust the timeline. Obviously he was doing his between-start work in preparation for his start, in the same way he normally would.

notoriousgod71 · May 4, 2016

On 5/4/2016 at 8:36 PM, Han Joelo said:
My normally pacifist nature towards management has been tested by the quick hook last night. I assume he already had his ticket to Rochester printed, but it looked like Molitor wanted to make sure he had plenty of time to get to the airport.

TR has as much at stake with Meyer as anybody he's signed or traded for. I hope Meyer goes back into the rotation at Rochester and is ready for the next call up. He'll undoubtedly be needed again.

Ryan has nothing at stake here. Whether we win 100 or lose 100 he will return. In fact, it's probably better for him to lose 100 as long as he isn't spending any money to do so.

notoriousgod71 · May 4, 2016

When was the last time the Twins handling of a prospect wasn't soundly criticized? I don't think that is a strong point of this organization.

Comrade Bork · May 4, 2016

This team has the worst record in the AL and a stacked farm system. Something is not adding up in how these roster decisions are made. Thumbs up to whoever said it earlier, I'd rather lose with young guys with high ceilings than average veterans. Gg TR this season is already over.

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