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  • Impromptu Draft Update


    Jeremy Nygaard

    The draft is quickly approaching (but still seems like a lifetime away). Twins Daily's draft coverage is being mapped out.

    But as of today, there are two major players as candidates for the first overall pick in June's draft and both of those players have made headlines.

    Image courtesy of © Mark J. Rebilas | USA Today Sports

    Twins Video

    HUNTER GREENE

    Let's talk about everyone's favorite prospect first. On Wednesday the newest edition of Sports Illustrated will hit the shelves. On the cover... you guessed it. Greene. Next to his picture are phrases like: "Baseball's LeBron or the New Babe?" and proclaiming Greene as the star "baseball needs." Read the article but be warned, you're going to like Greene even more.

    Greene has also been the focus of rumors that he's trying to force his way down the draft to his hometown Padres at #3. Those rumors have been floating around in the Twitter-sphere for a bit. In a recent conversation with Greene, he addressed the internet issues, simply saying they're "not true."

    And to be honest. I don't care if they are or if they aren't. We all have jobs and those jobs are - more than likely - in places that we choose to work. He's grown up on the west coast, worked his tail off on the west coast, and if his preference is to be baseball's next star on the west coast, would you blame him?

    With all that being said, as of today, I think these internet rumors have been way overblown.

    On another note, Greene's next start hasn't been scheduled. And no one knows if it will happen again this season or not. I'm still leaning that it will.

    BRENDAN MCKAY

    So if Greene isn't the guy, it's gotta be the best pitcher in college baseball right? Or will it be the best power hitter in college baseball?

    It could be both.

    On Tuesday, McKay, who one scout told me might be the greatest college baseball player of all time, hit four home runs. The feeling for quite some time is that McKay is a pitcher who could debut in the major leagues in 2018 and fit in the top half of the rotation for years to come. But how do you ignore the bat?

    With a bat as good as his is, do you dare to get creative and continue to let him hit? You can't completely dismiss that possibility. But how realistic that is remains to be seen.

    I think the temptation then would be to think that either of Greene or McKay could be two-way guys. But McKay has the leg up there because it would be easier to DH his bat (or play it at first base) than to have Greene play shortstop in between starts.

    The likely reality, though, is that you can't do that. With either. When you draft either of these guys, you're drafting a pitcher.

    I was asked today what I would do. If things are equal, I'd take Greene. But what if, through negotiations, you realize you could draft McKay and sign him for $500k less than what Greene wants? What if that number is $750k?

    What if there is a third player that you like almost as much that will sign for $1.5 million less?

    This is the question the Twins will have to ask themselves.

    And answer.

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    He needs:

     

     

    • a major league second pitch He has that
    • a major league third pitch He has the makings of this, and he is 17 and will develop over the coming years
    • more movement to his fastball. He has this
     

    Downside:  He ends up like Tonkin with one less pitch

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    Hunter Greene is having a pretty underwhelming season at the plate, according to Max Preps:

     

    http://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/hunter-greene/uMJm9ZrFEeOzMAAmVebBJg/gendersport/baseball-stats.htm

     

    He was better in previous seasons, though.  Would he really be a top-10 draft pick if he didn't pitch?  Admittedly I'm not a HS baseball or draft follower....

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    I feel terribly nervous about this draft. I trust the Twins, but both of the guys in play seem like they could blow up. And it would be devastating to pick "wrong" with 1-1. Such a crap shoot with pitchers, but that won't stop the analysts destroying the Twins if they pass on Greene and he becomes the best pitcher in baseball.

     

    It seemed like a better position when the Astros picked 1-1, and Twins didn't have the pressure. That said, the Astros did pretty well with Correa....

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    Update on draft things, but didn't want to make a new article.

     

    Thad Levine watched Texas Prep P Shane Baz on Tuesday. My assumption was that Baz is someone being considered for the second round. Not so fast, I guess. The Twins are casting a very, very wide net (much bigger than two players) and the narrowing in won't happen for a bit.

     

    Things like bonus demands aren't even being exchanged yet... right now the focus is on seeing all the guys. So when we read things like the Twins are considering Pavin Smith and Royce Lewis and Kyle Wright, etc... there's actually many more players... like Shane Baz. 

     

    As Levine said last night, there isn't a clear-cut guy. So the team is out searching for the one they like best. 

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    Update on draft things, but didn't want to make a new article.

     

    Thad Levine watched Texas Prep P Shane Baz on Tuesday. My assumption was that Baz is someone being considered for the second round. Not so fast, I guess. The Twins are casting a very, very wide net (much bigger than two players) and the narrowing in won't happen for a bit.

    Good to hear.

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    I also confirmed last night that Greene is done pitching. He says his coach "pulled the plug." 

     

    And no, it's not different than guys skipping other things leading up to the draft. 

     

    And it's definitely a more positive trend (for the player) than having him throw hundreds of pitches on short rest like a college pitcher would do.

     

    This requires more than a "like".

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    Just curious where you think he might go.  That's another guy I'd love to see the Twins take, especially if he's not a first rounder.

     

    Not Jeremy, but did have a chat with a couple scouts with NL teams this last week (not the Braves ones on this topic, interestingly), and they all pretty much assume he'll be a back-end first round guy. Pretty much late-teens on through CBA picks is expected range. Coming into the year, he was a guy most saw as a 3rd-5th round type of hitter.

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    I worry that the entire industry, which has been following Greene since he was a grade schooler according to the SI piece, has some tunnel vision going on.

    Don't get me wrong, the velo is enticing and he seems like a high character kid but the amount of contact he allows just doesn't seem to warrant all the hyperbole IMHO.

     

    But the industry had also zeroed in on Anthony Molina in last season's draft class early and Riley Pint and Jason Groome as freshmen/sophomores and those guys didn't go 1-1.

     

    In fact, I have a Braves Twitter follower who is a big draftnik, and he tracks the different mock drafts each major place puts out. The one out at each major place on the 25th of April had either Jason Groome or Kyle Lewis as 1-1 last year. Neither went top 10.

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    As I said in the general draft thread, KLAW has his top 50 up.

     

    McKay is third, btw.....

     

    I'm not going to rip a Greene, McKay or Wright pick (assuming Wright looks great the rest of the year). Anyone else? I'm going to seriously question the new FO.

     

    There is a MN HS kid he has 15th....

     

    He's bold as heck on Carlson, and I love it. I'm a big fan, but I was surprised on that.

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    Two independent questions:

     

    • How big is the difference between HS and college talent?  As big as the difference between say A and AA or A and AAA?  I'm not equating HS to A, just concerned about the difference.
    • The twins have a first round supplemental and a 2/1 pick (35 and 37?).  Does that affect the discussion about paying over / under slot?

     

     

    On the first, it's a tough question to answer. It depends on the year. College talent in a draft can be low due to a number of the best high schoolers signing in a few drafts in a row or it can be very high due to the opposite reason. There are always some guys who develop in college, but there is also value in getting a guy out of high school and not having a college mess up his arm or swing as colleges are there to win while the minors don't really care if they lose a game 20-0 if there's something positive developmentally that can come out of it for the players involved.

     

    On your second question, that's huge. Especially with the flattening of the draft pools, the Twins have about as much ability to manipulate their draft as anyone could this season. The Braves used 3/40/44 last year to really use their large bonus pool to their advantage. Three top 50 picks is a huge advantage for sure.

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    On your second question, that's huge. Especially with the flattening of the draft pools, the Twins have about as much ability to manipulate their draft as anyone could this season. The Braves used 3/40/44 last year to really use their large bonus pool to their advantage. Three top 50 picks is a huge advantage for sure.

     

    They probably do have the best ability to manipulate the draft... but it pales in comparison to past years. Having the #1 pick is much less of an advantage pool-wise.

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    They probably do have the best ability to manipulate the draft... but it pales in comparison to past years. Having the #1 pick is much less of an advantage pool-wise.

     

    Yes, though in fairness, the post 10th round stuff could be interesting when we get in June and official papers hit the league office on which high school players opt out of the draft. Hard to convince that long shot HS guy to leave his commitment with a $700K bonus in the 12th round if he's not allowed to be picked at all. That could determine better where the money is spent and allow for more of an intentional plan on the first few rounds, whereas the Braves even admitted that they didn't expect as many of their 11th-40th round guys to come to the table willing to deal as did, and it left them scrambling. Having better ideas there will help budgeting for a team looking to manipulate - or at least it should, in theory.

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    I'm open to the idea of getting a discount at number 1 if it meant getting a top 10-15 guy with the next comp pick, but saving money to get a 3rd round talent in round 10 would give me no pause about taking the best player in the draft regardless of money.

     

    And I don't think the economics work anymore for getting a top 10-15 guy at #35, and I'd want it lined up and fairly concrete prior to going into the draft.

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    There's been discussion in this thread about the possibility of Greene switching to shortstop, if he doesn't pan out as a pitcher.  It has always seemed to me that McKay has a much better chance to become a position player (acknowledging that first base is not a premium position like shortstop).  After all, there are a number of places I have seen McKay's hit tool ranked first among college hitters, and I've seen McKay compared to John Olerud.  If McKay busts as a pitcher, I think he's still potentially a very good MLB first baseman.  Not so much, Greene at shortstop.  Would you folks agree with this assessment, or am I caught off base? 

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    There's been discussion in this thread about the possibility of Greene switching to shortstop, if he doesn't pan out as a pitcher.  It has always seemed to me that McKay has a much better chance to become a position player (acknowledging that first base is not a premium position like shortstop).  After all, there are a number of places I have seen McKay's hit tool ranked first among college hitters, and I've seen McKay compared to John Olerud.  If McKay busts as a pitcher, I think he's still potentially a very good MLB first baseman.  Not so much, Greene at shortstop.  Would you folks agree with this assessment, or am I caught off base? 

     

    Never seen them play. KLAW has said Greene could be a top 10 pick as a SS, so I'd guess he disagrees with you.

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    Never seen them play. KLAW has said Greene could be a top 10 pick as a SS, so I'd guess he disagrees with you.

    That answers my question.  Of course, no one is suggesting that either of these guys get drafted as position players, but I was wondering about the speculation around these guys as two way players and what relevance that might have.  Sounds like it's a wash. 

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    Of course, no one is suggesting that either of these guys get drafted as position players 

    I don't think that's unanimous. He just had a 4-5 game with 4 home runs.

    Someone with a better memory can fill in the blank but one of the national draft pundits recently tweeted or blogged that McKay's bat might have more upside. Or am I imagining that? 

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    IMO McKay is less risk and higher ceiling. As a pitcher he has been comped to Cliff Lee. As a hitter, well, he's #2 among D1 players in OBP, 11 in slugging percentage, and strikes out at a very good 10.5%. Well below the likes of Kendall, Rooker, etc. There's plenty of ceiling in the bat.

     

    And as I've said before, there is the jackpot scenario where he develops into Cliff Lee on days he pitches and hits like Justin Morneau the other 4/5 games. Delivering 11-12 WAR/year plus opening up a roster spot.

     

    What's that guy worth in today's market, maybe $100m / year?

    Edited by Willihammer
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    Consider that the Twins haven't been very successful at developing HS players as well as other teams,  Selecting the older and more developed college player (McKay) seems automatic.  True, some teams might turn Greene into this "generational" pitcher--but, are the Twins one of the some teams?--or one of the others?

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    IMO McKay is less risk and higher ceiling. As a pitcher he has been comped to Cliff Lee. As a hitter, well, he's #2 among D1 players in OBP, 11 in slugging percentage, and strikes out at a very good 10.5%. Well below the likes of Kendall, Rooker, etc. There's plenty of ceiling in the bat.

     

    And as I've said before, there is the jackpot scenario where he develops into Cliff Lee on days he pitches and hits like Justin Morneau the other 4/5 games. Delivering 11-12 WAR/year plus opening up a roster spot.

     

    What's that guy worth in today's market, maybe $100m / year?

     

    There's no chance that the Twins or any other club will have a starting pitcher also be a starting position player. Starters have a routine that they follow to rest their arm, etc., which would be disrupted even as a DH. A reliever could potentially be a lineup regular, and a starter could be available as a pinch-hitter sometimes, but that's pretty much the extent of it.

     

    The benefit to McKay's two-way talents is a reduction in risk without compromising upside - he has significant potential either way. Nor are the outcomes of the pitching and hitting tracks necessarily correlated; in other words, if his bat disappoints, that doesn't do much to devalue his pitching potential.

     

    Also important is the fact that, as a college player, a reassessment of McKay's position could be made within a relatively short timeframe if Plan A looks like a mistake. Greene, by contrast, would need much more time for such a determination, and he would have to start back at square one, whereas McKay at least faced SEC competition already as a hitter and pitcher.

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    There's no chance that the Twins or any other club will have a starting pitcher also be a starting position player. Starters have a routine that they follow to rest their arm, etc., which would be disrupted even as a DH. A reliever could potentially be a lineup regular, and a starter could be available as a pinch-hitter sometimes, but that's pretty much the extent of it.

     

     

    Is this refusal by ML teams to consider having 2-way players based on data or is it just how things have always been done and no team wants to be the first to try (and perhaps fail).  It seems to me if this could be done successfully, it would give a team a significant advantage-especially a NL team.  In recent years there is increased usage of NL pitchers as pinch hitters.  Marcus Stroman pinch hit in a game last night.   I find it interesting that both McKay and Greene, likely the two top picks in this years draft could both be drafted as a position player or a pitcher (although Greene is likely to be a pitcher).  Shohei Otani has managed to be a successful 2-way player in Japan.  If he were to come to the U.S., would he continue being a two-way player or would teams force him to choose (or choose for him)? 

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    Was Floriman considered a top 10 prospect in his draft? KLAW has said Greene is one, as a SS, FWIW. So I'm not sure Floriman is a fair comp.

     

    . No, Florimomon is a Dominican. The point was Greene's floor not ceiling. If he busts as a pitcher his comp could be Tonkin, If he busts as a pitcher and then tries SS, his comp as a busted shortstop could be Florimon.. If you bothered to read Thtylos's comment you might understand mine

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    . No, Florimomon is a Dominican. The point was Greene's floor not ceiling. If he busts as a pitcher his comp could be Tonkin, If he busts as a pitcher and then tries SS, his comp as a busted shortstop could be Florimon.. If you bothered to read Thtylos's comment you might understand mine

     

    I understood it. His floor is out of baseball. 

     

    But, he's a top 10 prospect as a SS. He's not Floriman as a prospect at all. Not even in the same book, let alone sentence.

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    I understood it. His floor is out of baseball. 

     

    But, he's a top 10 prospect as a SS. He's not Floriman as a prospect at all. Not even in the same book, let alone sentence.

    Nor is he Tonkin as a pitching prospect,  but you did not say boo about that when Thrylos brought it up and I responded to it. If Tonkin was a top ten pitching prospect when he was drafted that was one heck of a slide in the draft.  So just find it in your heart to forgive my ignorance in making fun of Thrylos's statement

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    Nor is he Tonkin as a pitching prospect,  but you did not say boo about that when Thrylos brought it up and I responded to it. If Tonkin was a top ten pitching prospect when he was drafted that was one heck of a slide in the draft.  So just find it in your heart to forgive my ignorance in making fun of Thrylos's statement

     

    I totally missed what hte post was, that's on me, not you!

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