Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • How Does Keeping Dozier Fit With Long-Term View?


    Nick Nelson

    Ever since first stepping into their roles leading the Minnesota Twins baseball operations department, both Derek Falvey and Thad Levine have been talking about the big picture.

    So how would keeping Brian Dozier, whose value is at a high point, align with the future-focused approach that this regime has espoused?

    Image courtesy of Mark J. Rebilas, USA Today

    Twins Video

    In their early days on the job, the new CBO and GM were clear about their intentions to build a foundation for sustainable success, acknowledging that it might be a gradual process. Falvey laid out his vision for a "data-driven" collaboration. Levine spoke of making "thoughtful decisions that are designed for the future of this organization."

    On the surface, trading Dozier – a veteran star in his prime, who is highly unlikely to play on a championship-caliber team here during the two remaining years on his contract – would seem to be the very definition of such a move.

    But as we discussed late last week, Minnesota's front office has been stonewalled in its efforts to extract ample value for Dozier. Clearly, the newly installed executive duo entered this offseason with a specific valuation of Dozier, unshaded by familiarity with him as a person or his intangible value to the franchise. Clearly, suitors have been unwilling to meet it, for reasons outlined in last week's post.

    In the comments section for that article, some readers opined that the Twins should simply lower their sights and take what they can get for Dozier, which at this point appears to be Jose De Leon and not much else. It's a reasoned take because, in the big-picture view, De Leon has a much better chance of contributing to a contender in two years and beyond.

    But there's another big picture to look at, framed within Target Field and its many offices and operations. Beneath the new leadership structure, there are many returning employees, including the players on the roster. They are forming their own opinions of Falvey and Levine, who are both assuming top decision-making roles for the first time. Respect is earned, not given, and in the eyes of longtime Twins people who were loyal to Terry Ryan, these relatively inexperienced successors have big shoes to fill.

    How is it going to look if their first major trade involves shipping out the team's best player for a return that blatantly falls well short of expectations? How does it look to the guys in the clubhouse if their exemplary leader, viewed as a linchpin in efforts to rebound and return to contention, is removed and replaced by a rookie with no record of big-league success? How will the "Screw 2017, we'll do whatever it takes to get better in three years" approach be received by Paul Molitor as a lame duck manager who desperately needs to improve, in short order, to keep his job?

    And how much are these perceptions worsened if De Leon's shoulder flares up in the spring, or his initial struggles carry over to his first full season, or he ends up in the bullpen? If the Twins aren't getting back any additional pieces, there's no alternative opportunity to recoup value.

    Falvey knows about the importance of bolstering your odds. He comes from an organization that benefitted greatly from receiving quantity in these blockbusters.

    When the Indians traded CC Sabathia to the Brewers back in 2008, it wasn't headliner Matt LaPorta who ended up achieving star status but rather the "player to be named later" rounding out the package, who turned out to be Michael Brantley. When Cleveland traded Cliff Lee to Philadelphia a year later, four prospects of similar standing came back but only one truly panned out: Carlos Carrasco, who was a staple in their division-winning 2016 rotation.

    Of course, playing the odds works both ways. Any realist needs to acknowledge that the odds are very much against Minnesota making a dramatic jump and actually competing for a postseason spot in 2017. In the scope of long-term rebuilding, keeping Dozier is counterproductive in two important ways: it deprives the system of a top-tier talent in De Leon, with a lesser return likely if they make a deal down the line, and it forces Jorge Polanco to keep playing out of position at shortstop.

    Falvey is a calculating and analytical guy who earned a degree in economics. With the Indians, he learned under some of the game's most revered negotiators and evaluators. Same goes for Levine, who served as Jon Daniels' right-hand man in Texas.

    If Ryan were still in charge, I could see a stronger case for the Twins irrationally overvaluing their own asset. Such instances were not uncommon during his tenure. But the individuals charged with this Dozier decision are coming into the situation with clear eyes, and no inherent illusions about the current state of the organization.

    Tying this scenario to Falvey's area of speciality, there is an oft-cited concept in economics called opportunity cost. It is defined as "the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen," or more simply, the benefits that you give up by choosing one option over the other.

    In our present situation, the Twins are evidently prepared to leave a major prize on the table, as they've judged the positives of holding their ground and hanging onto Dozier to outweigh the value of acquiring De Leon.

    You can argue with the merits of their conclusion, but I don't think you can deny it's a thoughtful decision that meshes with a data-driven mindset.

    MORE FROM TWINS DAILY
    — Latest Twins coverage from our writers
    — Recent Twins discussion in our forums
    — Follow Twins Daily via Twitter, Facebook or email
    — Become a Twins Daily Caretaker

     Share


    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

    Consider the effect of trading Dozier for the limited offer LA provided simply because "we need pitching, and this is the best offer!" and then wait 2-3 years when Sano has to be traded. If the Twins cave on a Dozier trade, every GM will expect (demand?) that they cave on every other trade. Management must establish that the Twins aren't "BB player flippers".

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I believe I stated early on when the FO took charge that other than a potential Dozier deal, what would take place this year was more behind the scenes actions than on the field moves. I still believe this to be true and in action. And I'm OK with this.

     

    Despite being experienced baseball men who surely have at least some feel and knowledge of the players and personnel in the Twins system, their knowledge still came at a distance and through second hand knowledge. What they have to do, and I believe are doing even now, is exams said players and personnel from top to bottom, as well as implementing their own various tweaks, changes, and staffing upgrades and moves. Honestly, it would be pretty short sighted for them, or any new management team, to immediately come in and hand out pink slips. The entire organization has to be examined and a new structure of doing things put in place.

     

    Do I believe they have made an honest attempt to move Dozier and gain assets? Yes. It appears, for now, the return simply hasn't been there. We talk about the Twins past office never selling high on players. Just as egregious can be forcing your hand to sell low.

     

    I don't believe the book is closed on trading off Dozier now, or in the future. Nor do I believe they are done making moves to enhance the club. I would be very surprised if we don't see a few more moves or signings before ST starts. But clearly, this was the first major domino to fall...or not fall...before moving forward in whatever capacity they see fit. I will not judge them because in the first few months they began to install a culture and way of doing things and did not immediately blow up the franchise.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    The most alarming part of the whole trading Dozier thing is how many fans think the team has to trade Dozier or they've failed.  Personally, I feel that couldn't be more wrong.

     

    Trading Dozier means the team gets to move Polanco to 2nd.  They even say it's his "natural" position.  I have no idea what that means.  Maybe it's just a nice way of saying failed short stop.  If that's the case, then I guess that makes Dozier a natural 2nd basemen too.  It probably also means that the majors are already loaded with natural second basemen and could be why it has been so difficult pulling off a trade.

     

    The net gain defensively is a push and we lose Dozier's power bat.  Even if Dozier never comes close to hitting 42 again, 20-25 isn't an unreasonable expectation and would still make him one of the most productive 2nd basemen in baseball.

     

    For me the big burning question of a Dozier trade becomes who will replace Polanco at short?  Please don't say Escobar or Santana because if they were so good, they would already be playing it instead of Polanco.

     

    It would be one thing if Gordon or some other total stud SS was chomping at the bit and ready to come up.  If that were the case, I could look at a deal as paving the way for the team's short stop of the future and would be much more receptive to trading Dozier.  As is though, I see the team taking two steps backwards and they'll need a huge return just to break even.

     

    No deal is better than a bad deal and this is a bad deal no matter how you try to sell it.  Right now, the very real result of trading could be watching Dozier in the playoffs or even the world series while De Leon recovers from Tommy John surgery.

     

    Kudos to the new management team for not caving.  If the Dodgers don't want to pony up, just wait until the deadline and see a better deal can be made.  Maybe Gordon will be ready move up by then.

     

    Heck, I wouldn't even mind seeing the team extend Dozier a few more years - especially if he has a slow start.  He says he wants to stay in Minnesota, let's find out how bad.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    There are always a lot of unknowns in baseball. I think it may be hard for Falvey & Levine to basically give away Dozier and his 2018 season without seeing if they can make progress on run prevention in 2017 and set the Twins up to be respectable in 2018.

     

    Now, they haven't actually done anything, but at least part of the problem has been management of existing talent (e.g., moving May to the bullpen). They also may be willing to move more aggressively with prospects, when appropriate.

     

    We know that Falvey & Levine are both from orgs that made plenty of deals, and that they are willing to trade Dozier. They undoubtedly understand the ramifications of not trading him. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    If the Twins keep Dozier and then add one of the remaining big bats on the free agent market then with a few breaks they could potentially hang around the wild card race into September. They should not deal Dozier just to get "something". They should continue to hold out for maximum value.

     

    Can they pitch?  Hitting was not the Twins' problems in 2016, other than early in the season with Mr Dozier being one of the worst offenders...

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Have we forgotten the Bill Smith era already?  He did some great things with international signings, but part of the reason this org is where it is right now is due to the talent that got given away for nothing... and he did far more than once.

     

    So the Twins were a Wilson Ramos or a Matt Garza away from respectability from 2011-16?  I think not.   Remember that Gardy & Andy were major cogs in those trades of players they did not like, like Garza, Gomez, Hardy etc.

     

    Bill Smith was a better GM than Terry Ryan.  Check the Twins' record under each, if you don't believe me.

    Edited by Thrylos
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    You forget about the bold move of getting Castro :-)

     

    And promoting the person who has been responsible for the Twins' drafts the past decade

    And keeping around the persons who have been responsible for the Twins' player development the past seasons

    And signing Vogelsong :)

    (and a partridge on a pear tree)

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Can they pitch?  Hitting was not the Twins' problems in 2016, other than early in the season with Mr Dozier being one of the worst offenders...

    Honest question is only having 1 regular with an OWAR above 1.8 an issue? (and that being the one we are talking about trading?)

    Edited by Tomj14
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I've never seen a new regime get praised so much for doing nothing.

     

    There's a difference between praising and withholding judgment. I don't see a lot of 'praise' for the new regime, just recognition of the fact that there's only so much they can do with respect to various issues. Pohlad forced them to keep Molitor for 2017, the trade market for 2nd basemen is tragic, the crop of free agents is atrocious, etc. 

     

    Dozier-related criticism is largely premised on the idea that surely there is some way to get a fair return . . . yet no one on here has any evidence to support that view, and the available reports contradict it.

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    And promoting the person who has been responsible for the Twins' drafts the past decade

     

    This is a distortion - Johnson was clearly "promoted" only in a face-saving sense. In reality he was removed as scouting director.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    There's a difference between praising and withholding judgment. I don't see a lot of 'praise' for the new regime, just recognition of the fact that there's only so much they can do with respect to various issues. Pohlad forced them to keep Molitor for 2017, the trade market for 2nd basemen is tragic, the crop of free agents is atrocious, etc. 

     

    Dozier-related criticism is largely premised on the idea that surely there is some way to get a fair return . . . yet no one on here has any evidence to support that view, and the available reports contradict it.

    This thread has been okay so far. I've read several times on other threads "Kudos to Falvey & Levine for not caving in on making a trade"

    If I had a nickel for every time someone said "Kudos to TR for not caving in on making a trade" I may have 1 nickel.  

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I like Nick's perspective. This Dozier drama has been an interesting case study in optimism vs. pessimism. There's some of both on both sides, for sure, but the tenor of the "trade Dozier for whatever the Dodgers offered" comments tends to skew towards pessimism. Unless you're extremely optimistic about Deleon. But hey, I was once pretty optimistic about Alex Meyer, Delois Guerra, and Boof Bonser. And Jose Berrios. Wait, maybe I'm the pessimist!

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    There was an article in the Strib that had the boys saying that there would probably be more activity later this month.  Also, Jim was saying:

     

    “They never said they were going to make splashy moves. There was no expectation or instruction to make splashy moves just for the sake of change,” Twins owner Jim Pohlad said. “It’s more important to evaluate how to make the team more consistently competitive over the long haul, and I’m confident that’s what they’re trying to do.”

     

    http://www.startribune.com/twins-new-bosses-derek-falvey-thad-levine-take-the-guarded-route/410597805/

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    This thread has been okay so far. I've read several times on other threads "Kudos to Falvey & Levine for not caving in on making a trade"

    If I had a nickel for every time someone said "Kudos to TR for not caving in on making a trade" I may have 1 nickel.  

     

    Well even so that's pretty limited praise, 'good job not getting taken to the cleaners.' And TR had established a clear pattern of failing to make trades when he should have.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I agree with what you're saying, but I think there's a difference between a guy making multiple unrelated poor decisions/trades and a guy that makes poor decisions because he made a poor decision before.  I would put Bill Smith in the former category.  Even the best GM's/Managers/etc have things go astray now and then.  I've said multiple times that the hallmark of a good manager is how they deal with errors.  Do they compound them by continuing to double down on it or do they admit to their mistakes and take corrective measures to correct the error and learn from it.

     

    I guess I'm not seeing how you come to the former in this case. Every time Smith was in a position where he was being forced to make a trade (Santana, Hardy, Garza), he got absolutely raked over the coals. Oh, I forgot Capps...

     

    Smith did OK with cost effective pickups during a tight race (Rausch for example), but when he was in a situation like we are with BD, he did the 'take what you can get strategy' and got absolutely nothing. In all of those cases, he would have been better off holding his cards then playing them. 

     

    I'm not sure the Dozier trade is really any different. Maybe Levi is right and there was far more on the table there and the Twins were being greedy, but based on every press report out there, it's JDL and nothing else special.  That is pretty much the definition of a Bill Smith trade. He'd have taken that and that would have been that.

     

    A big part of getting value in trades is knowing when to walk away and being willing to do so.  I'm disappointed, but truthfully, I'm not surprised. F&L were going to get tested.  That may mean failing to trade Dozier, but it also makes real clear to the 29 other GMs that they aren't going to take their scraps.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Well even so that's pretty limited praise, 'good job not getting taken to the cleaners.' And TR had established a clear pattern of failing to make trades when he should have.

     

    Yeah, I'm really wondering where this idea is coming from that TR caved when it came to making trades. He only made them when he got value back, and he wasn't known to make them that often at all.  His main criticism (and rightfully so in some cases) was holding out for too much value.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    In my case, I'm happy they haven't given Dozier away, while still pretty disappointed overall at the lack of attempts to improve the team for 2017 and beyond.

    Yeah, part of keeping Dozier has to be a pivot towards winning in 2017-2018 and that hasn't happened. And without a credible threat of it happening, it probably reduces the Dodgers urgency of finalizing a deal with Minnesota.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Consider the effect of trading Dozier for the limited offer LA provided simply because "we need pitching, and this is the best offer!" and then wait 2-3 years when Sano has to be traded. If the Twins cave on a Dozier trade, every GM will expect (demand?) that they cave on every other trade. Management must establish that the Twins aren't "BB player flippers".

    Do we know this to be true? And why is Sano being traded?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    So the Twins were a Wilson Ramos or a Matt Garza away from respectability from 2011-16? I think not. Remember that Gardy & Andy were major cogs in those trades of players they did not like, like Garza, Gomez, Hardy etc.

     

    Bill Smith was a better GM than Terry Ryan. Check the Twins' record under each, if you don't believe me.

    Not to sidetrack the thread further, but part of a GM's job (maybe a huge part) is knowing who to listen to within the organization, and when to listen to them. Smith wasn't good at that, apparently.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Have we forgotten the Bill Smith era already? He did some great things with international signings, but part of the reason this org is where it is right now is due to the talent that got given away for nothing... and he did far more than once.

    Trading a catcher for a relief pitcher we didn't need is like trading for a starting pitcher with six years of control left? The Santana trade would look a lot better had they kept Hardy....A lot

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Do we know this to be true? And why is Sano being traded?

    Because his agent and he conclude that life's better on a big market team that will surround him with talent, has more "income potential", and won't hassle him about about weight, defense, etc.  

     

    It's not difficult for an athlete to conclude things would be better outside of Minnesota.  Then, there's the Pohlad's ... .

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    SS was an issue whether we traded Dozier or not. Still is. But at this point, I really think the team should stay pat and see what a healthy Escobar and young Polanco can do. Except for maybe an OF move...not sure I see a big bat signing...I think position wise they are set.

     

    I fully expect to see a RP signing shortly. Not sure I can see anything out there to sign in the way of starting Pitching unless the new FO thinks there is a flyer type worth bringing in. And I think Santana will stick around until mid-season now, with no Dozier trade.

     

    But how many times has a trade fallen through and the player in question appears to be remaining with their team only to then suddenly be traded when all the rumors died?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites




    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

    Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...