Guardians 4, Twins 3: Cold Offense, Defensive Miscues, Cost the Twins the Game

The Twins characteristic flaw was present once again. Score a couple early and then forget what to do with a bat during a plate appearance. No anti-virus shot for this.

Now for my dream.........Professor Baldelli vanishes from the Twins payroll to appear elsewhere in the Central Division where he manages the other team as he does this one and we beat the daylights out of his team with singles, a good bullpen, good baserunning and no computer decisions cemented into the game plan before a pitch is thrown. A guy can dream......

Back to reality. Cleveland is better. Cleveland is managed far better. Cleveland rocks this year.

Go Twins..........Twins Geezer. out!

5 hours ago, TopTwinsFan said:

Never. If we have a great season next year his poor game management will doom us. Such a frustrating season. Out managed and out smarted by the Guardians. Pathetic.

Hope the Twins dont sacrifice our future with him. He has had his chance. Congrats on that 100+ win season. Lets find a coach who can win us a next playoff game. Hell, win us a playoff series for the first time in over 20 years.

Teams take on the personality of their coach. This team underperforms, doesnt trust one another and chokes.

I have never seen a more disappointing Twins team in 35 years of being a fan. 

?

I'm surprised the team hasn't quit completely like they did last season. I would find it very difficult to play for a manager who constantly makes the wrong decision and loses game after game and doesn't learn from his mistakes. I also don't see the Twins getting any front of the rotation starters as long as Rocco is manager. The best thing they can do in the offseason is move on from him. Rocco's version of analytics doesn't work. 

Let's see, Twins score 3 early runs then don't hit a lick.  We have a pitcher in over pitching very well through 5 innings and gets pulled by Rocco even though he said he was not on any pitch counts or restrictions.  We again turn half the game over to the bullpen.  Bullpen gives up several hits with the count 0-2 on the batter.  Yes Gordon made an error but let's not forget the pitchers kept giving up hits afterwards.  Thielbar was used 3 days in a row.  Doran two days.  He was fortunate to hang on against the Royals on Thursday.  Friday not so great.  Short pitching starts and bullpen overuse and losses a familiar theme throughout the season.  Saturday we have two rookie pitchers starting with not much of a bullpen available.  I feel sorry for our two starters.  I have a feeling Rocco will let them hang out to dry if need be because of the way he mishandles the pitching staff.  Not much has changed.

Lots of anti-Rocco comments again. Couldn't agree more. Problem is he IS the guy brought in by Falvine and he IS doing what they want. If you want Rocco gone, Pohlad will probably have to dispose of the Falvine regime completely.

I commented in Thursdays game thread that Rocco should have used Bundy for more than 4 innings. At 60 pitches there was no reason to pull him and use extra arms in your bullpen. I knew Ober would be on a short leash regardless of how well he would pitch due to the fact that it was his first game back. Yep, exactly what happened. Then to make matters worse he used the same pitchers Friday night as he used Thursday, even pushing Thielbar to 3 days in a row. I said he was going to over-work his bullpen to the point they would implode in the Cleveland series. It took all of 1 game to get there. Now he's got Varland and Winder for two games today with his best arms in the bullpen not available unless he over-works them again. I seriously doubt either starter today will make it past 5 innings unless the Twins are ahead by 5 or 6 runs which is highly unlikely.

Watch the two managers work in this Cleveland series. One makes blunders one right after another and the other one makes good decisions that help his team win. Big difference between the two. And to all of you Rocco lovers out there, remember if he is the one who gets the credit when the team plays well and wins. he is also the one who should get the blame when the team plays poorly and loses especially when it is due to his poor decisions.

1 hour ago, rwilfong86 said:

I'm surprised the team hasn't quit completely like they did last season. I would find it very difficult to play for a manager who constantly makes the wrong decision and loses game after game and doesn't learn from his mistakes. I also don't see the Twins getting any front of the rotation starters as long as Rocco is manager. The best thing they can do in the offseason is move on from him. Rocco's version of analytics doesn't work. 

You can have your opinions and everything. It doesn't even really matter if logic or facts or involved in forming those opinions. Your opinions can also be wrong, such as this one. The Twins record the last 3 months of 2021 was 29-28. It was remarked by many, including myself, that the team played the string out hard in spite of being well out of the race for most of the season. 

In Bailey Ober's last rehab start at St Paul he had ramped up to 4.2 innings and 66 pitches after not pitching for 3.5 months. 3 and a half months? Hey that's kinda like an off-season. But **** I don't care he still should've went 7 or 8 innings because that's what I want! 

51 minutes ago, rv78 said:

Lots of anti-Rocco comments again. Couldn't agree more. Problem is he IS the guy brought in by Falvine and he IS doing what they want. If you want Rocco gone, Pohlad will probably have to dispose of the Falvine regime completely.

I commented in Thursdays game thread that Rocco should have used Bundy for more than 4 innings. At 60 pitches there was no reason to pull him and use extra arms in your bullpen. I knew Ober would be on a short leash regardless of how well he would pitch due to the fact that it was his first game back. Yep, exactly what happened. Then to make matters worse he used the same pitchers Friday night as he used Thursday, even pushing Thielbar to 3 days in a row. I said he was going to over-work his bullpen to the point they would implode in the Cleveland series. It took all of 1 game to get there. Now he's got Varland and Winder for two games today with his best arms in the bullpen not available unless he over-works them again. I seriously doubt either starter today will make it past 5 innings unless the Twins are ahead by 5 or 6 runs which is highly unlikely.

Watch the two managers work in this Cleveland series. One makes blunders one right after another and the other one makes good decisions that help his team win. Big difference between the two. And to all of you Rocco lovers out there, remember if he is the one who gets the credit when the team plays well and wins. he is also the one who should get the blame when the team plays poorly and loses especially when it is due to his poor decisions.

This. Sorry if the truth hurts.  

11 hours ago, minman1982 said:

Twins have some work to do in the off season if they want to go to the playoffs in 2023.  

The majority of the work that needs to be done is medical in nature.

1 hour ago, wabene said:

You can have your opinions and everything. It doesn't even really matter if logic or facts or involved in forming those opinions. Your opinions can also be wrong, such as this one. The Twins record the last 3 months of 2021 was 29-28. It was remarked by many, including myself, that the team played the string out hard in spite of being well out of the race for most of the season. 

"Opinion:  a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."

An opinion, by definition, can't be wrong; it is based on a viewpoint.  It is how someone views something.  A viewpoint can't be proven or disproven; it is an opinion.    

If all of our opinions had to be proven...........how many of us would be left?   

1 hour ago, wabene said:

In Bailey Ober's last rehab start at St Paul he had ramped up to 4.2 innings and 66 pitches after not pitching for 3.5 months. 3 and a half months? Hey that's kinda like an off-season. But **** I don't care he still should've went 7 or 8 innings because that's what I want! 

Not 7 or 8 innings, just more than 70 pitches.  And not because I want him to, but because the team needs him to, as they need all of their starters to.  

Now to me, that is logic and/or a fact, but others would say that is only my opinion.    

It's over

30 minutes ago, Mark G said:

"Opinion:  a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."

An opinion, by definition, can't be wrong; it is based on a viewpoint.  It is how someone views something.  A viewpoint can't be proven or disproven; it is an opinion.    

If all of our opinions had to be proven...........how many of us would be left?   

"Opinion:  a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." This is true. 

"An  opinion, by definition, can't be wrong; it is based on a viewpoint.  It is how someone views something.  A viewpoint can't be proven or disproven; it is an opinion." I don't think this follows logically. 

In this case @rwilfong86stated that the team quit on Baldelli. A serious accusation against the players and manager. In a bad season the team's best stretch of ball was the last three months. If a team had truly quit how would that manifest itself logically? By playing better? Sometimes things have to make sense, don't they? 

1 hour ago, wabene said:

In Bailey Ober's last rehab start at St Paul he had ramped up to 4.2 innings and 66 pitches after not pitching for 3.5 months. 3 and a half months? Hey that's kinda like an off-season. But **** I don't care he still should've went 7 or 8 innings because that's what I want! 

And the reason for Bundy only going 4 innings and 60 pitches the night before is? (Answer: Poor management).

7 minutes ago, rv78 said:

And the reason for Bundy only going 4 innings and 60 pitches the night before is? (Answer: Poor management).

If the Twins are going to have a starter or starters that they can only count on for 4 innings, I don't want them to sign that starter. Especially not 2 of them. Hopefully this year has proven to the front office that getting an above average number of innings from their starters is necessary if they want to be an above average or better team. They had better adjust some of their strategies. 

10 minutes ago, wabene said:

If the Twins are going to have a starter or starters that they can only count on for 4 innings, I don't want them to sign that starter. Especially not 2 of them. Hopefully this year has proven to the front office that getting an above average number of innings from their starters is necessary if they want to be an above average or better team. They had better adjust some of their strategies. 

Bundy has gone more than 4 innings and 60 pitches multiple times this year and in his career. Giving up 2 runs on 4 hits wasn't by any means poor pitching or reason enough to pull him in favor of using up your bullpen arms right before an important 5 game series against the division leader who you are trying to catch. Especially knowing you have a rehabbing pitcher and 2 rookies as your starters in the next 3 games. The only way the FO gets the blame for the decision to remove Bundy at 4 innings and 60 pitches is if the Manager is in direct talk with the FO at that time. 

7 hours ago, h2oface said:

Totally disagree. This pic does not represent the play well, or a throw that was on line and lower that would not have been in error. But they took the video down of the play now, and edited it out of the summary as it was edited down from 3+ minutes to 1+. They were both there earlier. (Or at least I can’t find it now, but had watched it several times earlier.) Far too many errors are called hits these days, in my opinion. Charity workers for batters and fielders and the pitchers get the fallout of shoddy defense ignored in their line. In fact, I was surprised Gordon didn’t get a gift. It doesn’t matter though. I am sure you have made your decision, anyway, and you have that right.

I watched the play over and over and over and debated taking multiple images to post up or even creating an animated .gif, but as you say, you've already made your decision. The difference is mine is based on watching the play. Your decision was made because you're angry.

Some observations & comments...

Gordon is a utility guy playing every day due to injuries.  We've got to expect games like the one he played last night occasionally.

Lay off Rocco.  He is only following the instructions from the FO.  If you do not like the way he is pulling starters and using relief pitchers be mad at Falvine.

All year it seems like we score some runs early and then the bats go dead.  Is it possible that the other teams adjust to our early success and we do not have the ability to adjust back with our mid/late-game plate approaches?

Let's get Wallner in there so we can add some beef to the lineup.  We have 3-4 guys at the top of the lineup and then poof, nothing.

Let's sweep today!!!!!

4 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

I also don't see the Twins getting any front of the rotation starters as long as Rocco is manager. The best thing they can do in the offseason is move on from him. Rocco's version of analytics doesn't work. 

Rocco's version? There is no way the front office is letting him run his own version of analytics, it's clear to me that he's executing their plan, as if they weren't happy with what he was doing, they would force him to change it up... similar to how Molitor got the can, with one of the reasons being letting his starters stay in too long (in their eyes).

3 hours ago, rv78 said:

Problem is he IS the guy brought in by Falvine and he IS doing what they want. If you want Rocco gone, Pohlad will probably have to dispose of the Falvine regime completely.

Exactly, this is a Falvine problem, not just a Rocco one. Having the current front office hire a new manager is likely going to have them find another analytics-driven manager, which I'm sure everyone would be stoked about!

2 hours ago, Mark G said:

Not 7 or 8 innings, just more than 70 pitches.  And not because I want him to, but because the team needs him to, as they need all of their starters to.  

And the problem is that Rocco may not be allowed to sent him out there more than 70 pitches, especially with how Ober's innings were managed last year. 

22 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

Some observations & comments...

Gordon is a utility guy playing every day due to injuries.  We've got to expect games like the one he played last night occasionally.

Lay off Rocco.  He is only following the instructions from the FO.  If you do not like the way he is pulling starters and using relief pitchers be mad at Falvine.

All year it seems like we score some runs early and then the bats go dead.  Is it possible that the other teams adjust to our early success and we do not have the ability to adjust back with our mid/late-game plate approaches?

Let's get Wallner in there so we can add some beef to the lineup.  We have 3-4 guys at the top of the lineup and then poof, nothing.

Let's sweep today!!!!!

"Lay off Rocco.  He is only following the instructions from the FO.  If you do not like the way he is pulling starters and using relief pitchers be mad at Falvine."

While Rocco can only play the hand he is dealt, and Falvine dealt him a crappy hand in that pen, how he uses them literally game by game, inning by inning, is his decision.  He decides if they only face the 3 man minimum or go 3 innings, or anywhere in between.  Using Thielbar 3 nights in a row was his choice, not the FO's.  And so on, and so on.  Rocco follows the overall philosophy of pitch counts and times through the order, but the pecking order of BP arms coming in and out is more his call than the FO's, or we wouldn't see the 3 nights in a row or multiple innings, etc.  It would be predictable, game in and game out throughout the season.  This has been a cluster @#$% for so long now, I stopped trying to even guess who will be on the pen list that day.  Falvine needs to put together a pen that matches their overall pitching staff philosophy, but Rocco needs to play his cards much better than he has.  

Any guesses on who will be in each of the games today/tonight?    

24 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I've been one of the bigger FO/Rocco defenders on these pages this season. Not because I love everything they do, or think they're all great. I'm not a "Rocco lover" (I don't think you'd find many Rocco lovers anymore, just Rocco understanders). I think the FO/Rocco (yes, they need to all be viewed as 1 entity, Rocco is simply an extension of the FO) have set the Twins up in a good spot moving forward, but I now want to see a different FO team and manager take the team from here.

Their complete inability to adjust on the fly has destroyed this season. The injuries have certainly compounded things, but even some of that appears to be self inflicted. How does Kepler start 1 game, and have a handful of brutal pinch hitting appearances, since September 4th and just get put on the IL today (retroactive to the 14th)? They completely wasted a roster spot for 13 days. I don't expect Wallner to light the world on fire the rest of the season, and Contreras is nothing to write home about, but let's at least try instead of tying our own hands. They did the same thing with Polanco. 4-6 week injuries turn into 8-12 week injuries. Either they have too big of a voice in medical decisions (and force conservative handling of players), or they've hired absolutely horrible medical staffs and refused to move on from them when it's become painfully clear.

The short starts have caught up to them and they continue to ignore it and refuse to change the strategy. I don't think they have a great rotation, and actually think having regular shorter starts has helped prop that unit up, but at some point you have to acknowledge the season is on the line and you have to try to get an extra inning out of guys. Ober had 4 rehab starts and his last one was 66 pitches. If he couldn't have pressed to 80 yesterday you shouldn't have started him. Or at least not have had the plan to use all but one of your top relievers for a second straight day before going into a double header. Are there people in the FO that push back and are ignored or is everyone from Falvey to Rocco in lock step on this? If they don't have a contingent pushing back then they're screwed and their echo chamber will doom the rest of their time in MN.

I like the roster. I think the development systems are in a great place. There's a real organizational base to build from already in place, but I think it's time to move on from the Falvine/Rocco era. They just don't seem to have the ability to make on the fly changes or adjustments to their plans. I gave them the whole season to see if they'd start extending pitchers a little (and, to be fair, they did let Gray and Ryan go 7 against KC), but they've put their team behind the 8 ball in their season defining series with continual self inflicted bullpen overuse. I don't know how many games the Pohlads actually watch, but if they were watching last night and didn't start having second thoughts about their people in charge then they truly don't care about the Twins ever winning. All they needed was 1 extra inning out of Ober last night in the most important game of the year to this point, and they just couldn't stop being overly cautious (blows my mind that they look at the IL situation and think their limiting of players is helping them stay healthy) and sticking to the plan.

I think it's time to turn the keys over to a new regime.

Well said.  

17 hours ago, Mark G said:

The back end of the bullpen might have lost the game, but every one that pitched tonight pitched last night as well, with Thielbar having pitched Wednesday too.  Your starter going the 3rd time through the order, or your reliever going for the 3rd night in a row.  Not a hard choice, and to this extremely humble observer, Rocco makes the wrong one far too often.  Looking at the bullpen spread sheet, how many of our back end guys are available tomorrow at all, much less for both games?  If you push them tomorrow, who comes in Sunday?  We have been saying for months that the starters have to pitch deeper into games, or the pen burns out.  I am hoping for a sweep of the next 4 games, but with our pen being spent, injuries are the least of our problems.  Short starts are problem #1, and it is a self induced problem.  

Ober marveled me on his return, pitching 5 scoreless innings. Even with the defensive miscues & short of offensive, I think we could've won the game. But our otherwise wonderful BP, let us down.

  Mark is spot on, that there is too much dependency on short relief. Theilbar pitched in 3 consecutive games while Fulmer, Jax & Duran has pitched in consecutive games. While we totally agree on this point, we disagree with the solution. I respect his option but our rotation has it's limits & stretching beyond that limit has caused it's own problems. 

My solution as always is long relief. Knowing Ober was to go 5 innings Baldelli could have Sanchez warmed up & ready to sub Ober. Sanchez as long relief could have gone 3 innings & hand it over to a rested Lopez to close the game. Shoot if Sanchez was on, he could've closed out the game & save the entire short relief crew for the double-header. And IMO would have saved the game

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I've been one of the bigger FO/Rocco defenders on these pages this season. Not because I love everything they do, or think they're all great. I'm not a "Rocco lover" (I don't think you'd find many Rocco lovers anymore, just Rocco understanders). I think the FO/Rocco (yes, they need to all be viewed as 1 entity, Rocco is simply an extension of the FO) have set the Twins up in a good spot moving forward, but I now want to see a different FO team and manager take the team from here.

Their complete inability to adjust on the fly has destroyed this season. The injuries have certainly compounded things, but even some of that appears to be self inflicted. How does Kepler start 1 game, and have a handful of brutal pinch hitting appearances, since September 4th and just get put on the IL today (retroactive to the 14th)? They completely wasted a roster spot for 13 days. I don't expect Wallner to light the world on fire the rest of the season, and Contreras is nothing to write home about, but let's at least try instead of tying our own hands. They did the same thing with Polanco. 4-6 week injuries turn into 8-12 week injuries. Either they have too big of a voice in medical decisions (and force conservative handling of players), or they've hired absolutely horrible medical staffs and refused to move on from them when it's become painfully clear.

The short starts have caught up to them and they continue to ignore it and refuse to change the strategy. I don't think they have a great rotation, and actually think having regular shorter starts has helped prop that unit up, but at some point you have to acknowledge the season is on the line and you have to try to get an extra inning out of guys. Ober had 4 rehab starts and his last one was 66 pitches. If he couldn't have pressed to 80 yesterday you shouldn't have started him. Or at least not have had the plan to use all but one of your top relievers for a second straight day before going into a double header. Are there people in the FO that push back and are ignored or is everyone from Falvey to Rocco in lock step on this? If they don't have a contingent pushing back then they're screwed and their echo chamber will doom the rest of their time in MN.

I like the roster. I think the development systems are in a great place. There's a real organizational base to build from already in place, but I think it's time to move on from the Falvine/Rocco era. They just don't seem to have the ability to make on the fly changes or adjustments to their plans. I gave them the whole season to see if they'd start extending pitchers a little (and, to be fair, they did let Gray and Ryan go 7 against KC), but they've put their team behind the 8 ball in their season defining series with continual self inflicted bullpen overuse. I don't know how many games the Pohlads actually watch, but if they were watching last night and didn't start having second thoughts about their people in charge then they truly don't care about the Twins ever winning. All they needed was 1 extra inning out of Ober last night in the most important game of the year to this point, and they just couldn't stop being overly cautious (blows my mind that they look at the IL situation and think their limiting of players is helping them stay healthy) and sticking to the plan.

I think it's time to turn the keys over to a new regime.

It's almost certainly the former and the players might be too much of that big voice as well. Like any data point, medical info is all about how you're using it. I'd be shocked if any MD was comfortable/happy with their professional acumen being called into question just to squeeze a few extra weeks out of a clearly injured (insert player here.)  

I'd add bullpen construction to the list of adjustments the FO refuses to make. Their FA signings flopped and the castoffs performed like castoffs last year, but I guess second time was the charm right? Nope, for the second season in a row the pen is a major issue, and worst of all it's probably the easiest thing to fix.   

1 hour ago, Danchat said:

Rocco's version? There is no way the front office is letting him run his own version of analytics, it's clear to me that he's executing their plan, as if they weren't happy with what he was doing, they would force him to change it up... similar to how Molitor got the can, with one of the reasons being letting his starters stay in too long (in their eyes).

Exactly, this is a Falvine problem, not just a Rocco one. Having the current front office hire a new manager is likely going to have them find another analytics-driven manager, which I'm sure everyone would be stoked about!

And the problem is that Rocco may not be allowed to sent him out there more than 70 pitches, especially with how Ober's innings were managed last year. 

Rocco's version as opposed to how other teams use analytics but not at the expense of common sense and having a baseball IQ.