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  • Expansion Could Alter MLB's Landscape


    Cody Christie

    The winds of change are in the air. Major League Baseball could be nearing an expansion to 32 teams which would signal a large shift in the baseball world. One of the biggest changes would be dissolving both leagues as baseball would shift to a four-division system.

    There would be plenty of other changes to make a new system work. Are fans, owners, and players ready for this type of radical change?

    Image courtesy of Eric Bolte-USA TODAY Sports

    Twins Video

    Expansion Cities

    Montreal has been clamoring for a new baseball franchise since the Expos left for Washington. A strong outpouring of fans has started to clamor for a team to return. There would need to be more support for the building of a downtown park. If Canadian fans can push for the building of a new park, Montreal would be a likely destination for an expansion club.

    Portland, Oregon has stadium plans and says it’s prepared if a team becomes available. An ownership group from Japan could be a likely fit since the Seattle Mariners, the closest team to Portland, is owned by Nintendo. While speaking in Seattle this fall, Commissioner Rob Manfred spoke about Portland as an expansion city. “I think Portland is a possibility. If we were to go to 32 [teams], we would need a Western time zone team.”

    New Divisions

    Minnesota’s new division would include a mixture of familiar and new. The North Division would likely include Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Minnesota, Montreal, both New York franchises and Toronto. MLB’s schedule would be reduced to 156-games so the Twins would face each division foe 12 times (six home and six road games. They would also play every other opponent three times.

    If Minnesota didn’t end up in the North, the Midwest division could also be a likely landing spot. Baseball America predicts the Midwest would include both Chicago franchises, Colorado, Houston, Kansas City, Milwaukee, St. Louis and Texas.

    Only two teams, the Rockies and the Twins, would be playing out of their time zone.

    Playoff Changes

    Baseball only recently expanded the playoffs by adding a Wild Card Game. With expansion, the playoffs would change as well. Each of the four division winners would await the winners of four wild card games. Eight other teams with the best records would make the playoffs to square off in a wild card game. Those winners would move to the Division Series then to the Championship Series and the final two would meet for the World Series.

    With the expanded playoffs, 12 of the 32 franchises would qualify for the postseason. Minnesota saw more fan interest this year while the club fought for a Wild Card spot. This trend could continue for more franchises with even more teams being in the playoff hunt.

    Baseball is a game based on tradition and I don’t know if fans are ready for this radical of a shift. What are your thoughts or feelings about the possibility of baseball expanding? Leave a COMMENT and start the discussion.

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    1) After 1983, they were generally near the bottom of the league in attendance.

    2) Didn't the owners get the Marlins, and the league took over the team for a while? So it wasn't just one capricious ownership group.

     

    They literally did not offer salary arbitration to Cliff Lee and 4-6 other good players, and let them all walk. That's when the attendance plummeted, and rightly.

     

    Yes, the league ran them the year after the league voted to contract Montreal and MN, and literally had to hire a manager a few weeks before the season, because the FO had fired everyone making money. They also took all the computer equipment and most everything else to Miami, leaving the team with almost no FO, scouts, etc....

     

    It wasn't the fans that betrayed the city/team....

    Edited by Mike Sixel
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    To a point. Baseball is very popular in Central America, and there are huge cities that could support teams. I agree on travel/safety (depending on where they go), but those west coast trips are long too. I just don't see Portland/Montreal being a success. Montreal already failed once, and did so miserably. Portland isn't big enough. Indianapolis is a much larger market without a team (and I don't see one here either).

     

    and yes... expansion without fixing revenue inequality will kill the sport.

    One point the article made was that the lost revenue in going to 156 games would be made up in lower travel costs because of realignment. Thats why everyone is emphasizing locations as they are. It’s not just about being viable in community and financial support, but is also viable in location.
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    They literally did not offer salary arbitration to Cliff Lee and 4-6 other good players, and let them all walk. That's when the attendance plummeted, and rightly.

    Not sure what Cliff Lee has to do with 1983-97. Some highly-presentable teams were put on the field, including that phantom championship team of 1994 due to the strike. Top-half performance on the field many years, bottom-half attendance consistently. They did not have a long run of losing seasons until the late 90s. I agree we should not to judge the city once the bottom fell out with the team.

     

    You and I have different ideas on what makes a good baseball town.

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    How about Vancouver instead? Then you'd get your Pacific Northwest team and your Canadian team all in one package. Then you can do whatever is the biggest market lacking a team.

     

    But I vote no on all of this business. I'm not against change, but I am against my team getting shafted and nothing in this proposal looks beneficial to the Twins. Is rather go the relocation route as sad as I'd feel for some of those fans.

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    One point the article made was that the lost revenue in going to 156 games would be made up in travel costs with realignment. Thats why everyone is emphasizing locations as they are.

    Except for the Twins who lose the game revenue and have way more travel. That's a recipe for having the lowest payroll in baseball.

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    Except for the Twins who lose the game revenue and have way more travel. That's a recipe for having the lowest payroll in baseball.

    Exactly. That’s why I think the article is kind of ... not well thought out and why everyone is proposing their own realignment. And I even mentioned that in previous posts. I even went so far as to compare actual mileage with some to try and put the best workable solution to that.

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    Thinking about 4 division winners and 8 wildcards.. what if it were 4 division winners and 4 wildcards.. the wild card series are 2 or 3 game series where the wild card team has to sweep a division winner to advance?

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    "Rays and A's are barely hanging on highly profitable despite bad stadium situations"

     

    Fixed that for you.

     

    "Indianapolis is a much larger market without a team"

     

    In what world is Indianapolis a 'much larger' market than Portland or Montreal? It is smaller than both of them and considerably smaller than Montreal.

     

    I think people underestimate how poorly managed the situation in Montreal was before they left. There was the MLB strike, followed by a fire sale of a contending roster. They repeatedly screwed up the marketing and then sold to Jeffery Loria so he could actively sabotage things to the point where he could relocate.

     

    OK... went and looked it up. :)  You're right on Montreal. It's quite a bit bigger than both. Indy and Portland are very comparable for the record.

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    Not sure what Cliff Lee has to do with 1983-97. Some highly-presentable teams were put on the field, including that phantom championship team of 1994 due to the strike. Top-half performance on the field many years, bottom-half attendance consistently. They did not have a long run of losing seasons until the late 90s. I agree we should not to judge the city once the bottom fell out with the team.

     

    You and I have different ideas on what makes a good baseball town.

     

    I wonder if Montreal is to MLB as LA is to the NFL. LA is a huge market that should have been able to support two football teams, but could not. Now you have two teams going there and they still have problems with attendance.

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    I think this is how I'd go. Colorado is kind of misplaced but they don't really fit anywhere. Maybe adding a team in Charlotte or Nashville instead of Portland would make more geographic sense and then Colorado could slide west.

    I'd also allow teams to set their own ground rules as it regards DH / pitcher batting. Must be declared for entirety of season and then maybe required 2 years to change.

     

    NORTHEAST
    NY Mets
    NY Yankees
    Boston
    Philadelphia
    Montreal
    Pittsburgh
    Washington
    Baltimore

     

    GREAT LAKES
    Detroit
    Cleveland
    Milwaukee
    Minnesota
    Toronto
    Cincinnati
    Chicago Cubs
    Chicago WS

     

    SOUTH
    Texas
    Houston
    Colorado
    Kansas City
    Saint Louis
    Atlanta
    Miami
    Tampa

     

    WEST
    Seattle
    San Francisco
    Oakland
    LA Dodgers
    LA Angels
    San Diego
    Arizona
    Portland

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    Charlotte is booming again. As someone who has lived in DC, Cincy, Nashville, Buffalo, Twin Cities and now Charlotte i can honestly say that they could support a team. Charlotte is hungry for baseball. The banking sector is BOOMING in Charlotte and they have scores of other business now. The AAA Knights have ranked #1 in attendance since 2014 after BB&T ballpark opened downtown. The AAA Nashville Sounds also have high attendance numbers and Nashville has a vibrant growing downtown and is a central distribution center for companies in the midwest. Both cities are ripe for MLB baseball in my opinion.

     

    Also, North Carolina loves baseball more than any other place I've lived or at least that was the case 15 years ago and The Triangle and Piedmont Triad are both pretty decent sized in-state metro areas within easy driving distance.

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    Baseball had about a 10 billion dollar revenue stream. Dropping 6 games would be a 3.7% drop in revenue, about 370 million. I do not think that mlb would save that much in travel costs, I doubt players will want to give up their per game income. A home and home series against a rotating team would likely be added to keep up the revenue. 

    The players union would push strongly for this, even if the players existing contracts were reduced by 3.7%.  Reason being the addition of 2 teams automatically turns 25 AAAA-type players into major-leaguers, with the accompanying higher salaries.  

    And I'm guessing most players would welcome the reduction in games, even if they took a slight hit in the pocketbook.

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    Also, North Carolina loves baseball more than any other place I've lived or at least that was the case 15 years ago and The Triangle and Piedmont Triad are both pretty decent sized in-state metro areas within easy driving distance.

    I think the Carolinas (maybe even just North?) have a lot of minor league teams around. Both Charlotte and Durham have AAA teams.

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    expansion won't solve the revenue problem. If anything, it makes it worse. Only way to use expansion to do this is to put another team in NY and LA, and even then, I'm not sure it solves anything.

     

    Honestly, if baseball wanted to expand, I'd think there would be much better markets in central America than Portland or Montreal.

     

    But central America for the most part is dirt and i mean DIRT poor.  How could any of those countries down there possibly sustain a major league team with comparative payrolls to US teams? 

     

    Panama and Costa Rica have yearly average incomes of $2740.   Honduras $760 and Nicaragua less than $500 a year! 

     

    If you jump over to the island of Hispaniola it doesn't get any better with Haiti at $460 and Domincan Republic is not much better. Just south of our border Mexico averages $4,400 a year.

    Edited by laloesch
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    They didn't have an English language broadcast for several years also....

    How's the baseball temperature in Portland Mike?

     

    Portland bumping Colorado for the eighth slot in the west looks to be screwing all the realignment attempts. Sorry to stereotype, but are all those young hipsters really into baseball?

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    "I doubt players will want to give up their per game income."

     

    The players per game income would actually increase if the number of games decreased.  Their salaries are determined by the year not by the number of games in the season.

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    But central America for the most part is dirt and i mean DIRT poor.  How could any of those countries down there possibly sustain a major league team with comparative payrolls to US teams? 

     

    Panama and Costa Rica have yearly average incomes of $2740.   Honduras $760 and Nicaragua less than $500 a year! 

     

    If you jump over to the island of Hispaniola it doesn't get any better with Haiti at $460 and Domincan Republic is not much better. Just south of our border Mexico averages $4,400 a year.

     

    I'd love Central American expansion, but it won't happen. Canadian teams already have a harder time signing free agents because of different currency, culture, etc.

     

    I don't think Central America is unrealistic though. The rich in these countries are still rich. It's everyday folk who can't afford the luxuries like MLB.

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    How's the baseball temperature in Portland Mike?

    Portland bumping Colorado for the eighth slot in the west looks to be screwing all the realignment attempts. Sorry to stereotype, but are all those young hipsters really into baseball?

     

    No chance, imo, there are enough businesses here to buy suites, nor do I think the tv market is big enough. Seattle would be bummed for sure, to lose this market, they would want to be compensated.

     

    I think Vancouver, BC is actually a good idea. LOTS of money there, LOTS.

     

    However, a report came out yesterday that there is a Portland money group working on this.....

     

    The stadium would be tough. No one in the city likes going west to the burbs, no one in the far out burbs likes the hippy dippy city. Traffic is awful to the one suburb spot you could do (Hillsboro), and even worse in the city. Supposedly there is a site in the city. It will either be Amazon HQ2 (hahahahaha) or a baseball stadium (hahaha), or condos/apartments/park space.

     

    Frankly, this city will have to ban cars in the center part of the city at some point....

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    But central America for the most part is dirt and i mean DIRT poor.  How could any of those countries down there possibly sustain a major league team with comparative payrolls to US teams? 

     

    Panama and Costa Rica have yearly average incomes of $2740.   Honduras $760 and Nicaragua less than $500 a year! 

     

    If you jump over to the island of Hispaniola it doesn't get any better with Haiti at $460 and Domincan Republic is not much better. Just south of our border Mexico averages $4,400 a year.

     

    I agree with this, but I'm not sure median income is necessarily the best way to look at it. There are some very large cities in central America. The question is whether there is enough of a middle class to sustain baseball in one or more of them. Given just how much they love baseball there, I wouldn't throw it out either.

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    How about Vancouver instead? Then you'd get your Pacific Northwest team and your Canadian team all in one package. Then you can do whatever is the biggest market lacking a team.

    But I vote no on all of this business. I'm not against change, but I am against my team getting shafted and nothing in this proposal looks beneficial to the Twins. Is rather go the relocation route as sad as I'd feel for some of those fans.

    I am lockstep with you *high five*

     

    I think in a perfect world, a west Canada city and Havana and Puerto Rico are considered for new franchises. There are a couple of franchises that should relocate at this point (looking at you, Tampa). But maybe Nashville is a good candidate market for a new southern team as others said up thread. Don't know. But mostly I'm a No to expansion.

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    I think this is how I'd go. Colorado is kind of misplaced but they don't really fit anywhere. Maybe adding a team in Charlotte or Nashville instead of Portland would make more geographic sense and then Colorado could slide west.

    I'd also allow teams to set their own ground rules as it regards DH / pitcher batting. Must be declared for entirety of season and then maybe required 2 years to change.

     

    NORTHEAST

    NY Mets

    NY Yankees

    Boston

    Philadelphia

    Montreal

    Pittsburgh

    Washington

    Baltimore

     

    GREAT LAKES

    Detroit

    Cleveland

    Milwaukee

    Minnesota

    Toronto

    Cincinnati

    Chicago Cubs

    Chicago WS

     

    SOUTH

    Texas

    Houston

    Colorado

    Kansas City

    Saint Louis

    Atlanta

    Miami

    Tampa

     

    WEST

    Seattle

    San Francisco

    Oakland

    LA Dodgers

    LA Angels

    San Diego

    Arizona

    Portland

    I love the idea of four 8-team divisions. It harkens back to the true pennant races which I am not old enough to remember. the top team could be the winner with four wildcards per league (two one game playoffs to determine 1-4 2-3 seed second round matchups). Alas it will never happen, because $$$$$
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    One point the article made was that the lost revenue in going to 156 games would be made up in lower travel costs because of realignment. Thats why everyone is emphasizing locations as they are. It’s not just about being viable in community and financial support, but is also viable in location.

    84 games vs 76 games now with teams regionally close.  Losing 1 short flight between cities on a road trip and 1 shorter flight  with a division rival along with 3 nights of hotel costs is not going to make up  for the loss of revenue from full season ticket packages, suite revenue and loss from 6 games from broadcast  rights fees

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    No chance, imo, there are enough businesses here to buy suites, nor do I think the tv market is big enough. Seattle would be bummed for sure, to lose this market, they would want to be compensated.

     

    I think Vancouver, BC is actually a good idea. LOTS of money there, LOTS.

     

    However, a report came out yesterday that there is a Portland money group working on this.....

     

    The stadium would be tough. No one in the city likes going west to the burbs, no one in the far out burbs likes the hippy dippy city. Traffic is awful to the one suburb spot you could do (Hillsboro), and even worse in the city. Supposedly there is a site in the city. It will either be Amazon HQ2 (hahahahaha) or a baseball stadium (hahaha), or condos/apartments/park space.

     

    Frankly, this city will have to ban cars in the center part of the city at some point....

    No mention of a retractable dome as monsoon season begins in September and doesn't let up until the middle of June.

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    84 games vs 76 games now with teams regionally close. Losing 1 short flight between cities on a road trip and 1 shorter flight with a division rival along with 3 nights of hotel costs is not going to make up for the loss of revenue from full season ticket packages, suite revenue and loss from 6 games from broadcast rights fees

    I’m not agreeing with the article merely restating it’s premise. I don’t see the savings either, particularly how the article has aligned the teams.

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    I agree with this, but I'm not sure median income is necessarily the best way to look at it. There are some very large cities in central America. The question is whether there is enough of a middle class to sustain baseball in one or more of them. Given just how much they love baseball there, I wouldn't throw it out either.

     

    It would certainly be worth looking into but carefully studied the numbers may not work. Then there is the safety factor that know one wants to talk about particularly El Salvador and Guatemala.

    Edited by laloesch
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    No mention of a retractable dome as monsoon season begins in September and doesn't let up until the middle of June.

     

    mostly myth. The weather here is nicer than MN, until about now. Post season would be a potential issue, but no more so than Denver.

     

    though, I'd bet they would build a retractable roof, yes.

     

    Also, politically, I don't see how this government puts money into a stadium with all the other stuff going on here.....so unless Phil Knight decides he cares about Portland....

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    Central America? Absolutely no way. The only place in Latin America that has any chance whatsoever would be Mexico City, and I think the currency exchange and livability issues would make it difficult to make things work. I know I wouldn't want to play 81 games there.

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    mostly myth. The weather here is nicer than MN, until about now. Post season would be a potential issue, but no more so than Denver.

     

    though, I'd bet they would build a retractable roof, yes.

     

    Also, politically, I don't see how this government puts money into a stadium with all the other stuff going on here.....so unless Phil Knight decides he cares about Portland....

    A quick Google search shows you to be correct.

    Portland gets most of their rain in the winter.

    They actually get far less rain during baseball season than Minneapolis does.

     

    From April through September, Minneapolis gets an average of about 20.8" of rain, while Portland gets 9.9".

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