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Twins are a mess. Yes the injury bug has hit them hard especially in September. But that doesn't account for their overall poor, uninspired play since June 1. Correa scheduled day off? Like everything this team has done it was stupid and ridiculous. There is only 12 games left he has months to rest up for his next team. They should have rested him Thursday in KC instead of Friday in front of home crowd paying huge bucks to watch minor league baseball. Rocco's unwillingness to use Correa in key pinch hitting situations shows the plan is more important than a possible win and more important than the home paying crowd. This exemplifies what is wrong with this organization. Too bad we have to put up with this phony front office and manager again next year

I think next year Rocco needs to take it up a notch and transition from 'scheduled rest days' to 'scheduled rest series' en route to 'scheduled rejuvenation weeks' and perhaps ultimately 'scheduled sabbatical years!" *** *** Except for relief pitchers.... they will need to cover 4-5 innings a game, every game

At least we got to see Ohtani. Tough conditions for the pitchers. When is Rocco's scheduled day off?

For me, the clincher is that they profess to be guided by analytics, yet the analytics appear to be poor. Exhibit A: calling up Tim Beckham, who has no discernible defensive skills remaining and whose gaudy batting stats at AAA were bolstered by an unearthly .500 batting average on balls in play. Even an armchair analytics guy like me spotted the potential for massive regression. What were they possibly seeing in his numbers? Exhibit B: trading for two pitchers who the general public had information to indicate injury risk. You're telling me there are no analytic models for pitcher injury forecasts? What tools were they using? Exhibit C : resting guys like crazy, yet the injuries mount anyway. Are the results matching up with what their forecasts were telling them? Are they looking at additional tools to figure out why not? Those are three that come to mind at the moment. But more generally, any FO makes a lot of moves over the course of a season, and too many of theirs don't work out. Bad luck? If that's the excuse, then I want a luckier FO to replace them. I'm not bothered by individual moves that don't work out, but it looks like systematic flaws in their process behind the moves. Analytics, expertly done, isn't nearly as rigid as they make it look. Indeed, in the business world, the term "brittle" is used to describe a system that is over optimized and under stress-tested. Look at airline cancellations for an example. I know lots of folks here aren't sold on analytics as a way to run a team. But I don't want analytics to be judged as a concept, by how these guys seem to be doing it.

You don't think they want to win? They won the division twice with Rocco, and lost it twice. I can see why they brought him back, whether I agree or not. But to claim, as two people now have, they don't care if they win? Most likely not true.

He's going to be 24 next season. I don't see a reason why he should spend any time lower than Cedar Rapids. Start him at Double-A and see how he does.

Not just the training staff, but the entire organizational philosophy on player health. What they're trying clearly isn't working. I want a return to players playing. The best players play. Every day. When injured, they go on the IL, and someone else plays. No more "load management," and conversely, no more carrying players that can't play. Train for 162 games played. Don't know if that will work...it used to...but do SOMEthing. The current philosophy is a disaster.

I know everybody hates him, and he's not the most talented player in MLB, but I like watching him play. He always gives 100% and sometimes makes good things happen. He's got some pace and some power.

We must remove Tommy Watkins as the 3rd base coach.

We NEEDED to make sure to REST him for um..... er.....ahhhhh.....eeeh...... yah know..... yeah.......

Well duh. It's called the "free space."

Agree about the lack of fundamentals. There's an interesting quote from Steven Kwan of the Guardians (in an article on ESPN.com) about how Francona emphasizes the little things: "He called me into his office, which he normally doesn't do," Kwan said. "And he pulls up a video and it's a runner on first and I hit a single to right. The runner goes first to third and the right fielder sails the ball and I'm standing on first. "He asks me why I didn't take second base? I told him I hadn't had a hit in while and I got to first and I was happy to be there. He was like 'No kid, that's not what we're about. If we're going to do this we're going to do it the right way.' "That stayed with me." From what we are seeing on the field it doesn't seem like the Twins' coaches are pushing fundamentals, or their conversations aren't sinking in with the players, which is just as bad.

My first thought was "Why are they going to show a 'highlight' of him striking out?"

How you feel inside is what matters.

Hard no and I'd argue that his age makes the argument for not worrying jumping to 150 innings next year. He is a professional athlete with an offseason to prepare....IF he ends up having a healthy season next year just let him throw.

Many people only remember the off-field anecdotes, of which most are probably untrue. They forget that he was a pretty damn good player.

He's a guy who just loves to play the game

Not everybody.

You should apply for the GM job so we will for sure win it all

Even though the score at the time wasn't outrageous, it seemed like "garbage time" for a pitcher, given what we expect from our offense the rest of the game. Caused me to wonder if there was a trend, of Pagan pitching his best when the pressure was off. So I went to b-r.com and took a look at his pitching log. I looked for instances of clean innings, or the multi-inning stints where he gave up fewer base runners than innings. Guess what? Contrary to my expectation, most of his best performances in 2022 have been in wins, and not simply blowout wins at that. Of course his bad performances correlate pretty directly to losses. Bad, gut wrenching losses. I'm not papering over that. But, fair's fair. He's had good days when it counts. I can sort of see why the manager and coaches may find him an enigma and keep trying to unlock something. He's no Tyler Duffey, who's lost his stuff. Pagan can pitch. He just... sometimes... often... too often... doesn't.

name of this game is still 'win'. We already knew what we 'have' in Celestino (offensively very little) This was THE correct time to pinch hit Correa. You still do try and win, right? The Twins failures in the clutch over the past several weeks has reached epic proportions. Even Bremer seems to have thrown in the towel. As soon as Celestino hit the ball, he said'''and there's a double play ball'. Period. Wash, rinse, repeat. There is nothing there right now. The replacements are a dismal failure. The regulars aren't getting it done. this has been one sorry conclusion to what was still a horserace at Labor Day. A total mess.

Kind of a shot across the bow perhaps? A bit of - “it’s all of us or none” maybe? Pohlads are too smart - they must see Rocco is not the right leader for their type of ball club - mid market and young. To win, they know the team has to play better fundamentals and have a stronger in-game manager. Rocco’s skill base might be better with a high priced slugging team with lots of veteran leadership and maybe some big egos. That’s not the Twins. Regardless, expect more throwing the ball around, endless base running gaffes, not moving base runners over, poor pitching management, etc, etc. Why would it change? Every team under Rocco has exhibited these traits.

By that metric, Judge must be worth $100m and Ohtani $150m?

Maybe it has something to do with the "ex" part. (100% tongue-in-cheek) Some people don't like it when former MLB players (or top level athletes in any sport) won't give it up after they can no longer compete at the top level, but I'm all in favor of it. If he wants to play and someone will have him on a pteam, let him play. I played slow-pitch softball through age 45, when my knees just would no longer allow it. When my wife asked when I was going to quit, I would tell her "when they pry my DeMarini from my cold, dead hands," but it didn't last quite that long. Now I umpire.

I think the Twins should leave him where he is until we see how the rotation turns out next year. In the best case scenario, if Mahle, Gray, Maeda and Ryan are all healthy and looking sharp, and if they bring another starter (preferably left handed), and if Varland, Winder, and/or SWR are ready (notice all the ifs), then I might move him to the bullpen, but I would only do it if I felt he would be an asset to the bullpen, not due to injury history. Frankly, there are so many uncertainties related to the whole pitching staff, that it is almost impossible to project anything. Another interesting off season coming I think.

I believe Ober needs to stay in the rotation. His injury this year was not arm related. The Twins currently have 3-4 starters who may not be back in 2024. They need to add long term starting pitching depth to their team.

I would love to see an anonymous evaluation from other MLB managers and GM's opinion of the Twins. I wouldn't be pretty.

I think he should get a "rest year". Maybe 10.

yeah it's early yet....when falvey and levine get fired then rocco goes too

The organizational philosophy is a joke. The analytic approach without even considering any form of a conventional approach mixture is a joke. Scheduled days off with no flexibility is a joke. Way too many coaches is a joke. With all those coaches you would think we would play better fundamental baseball all around. Since both Rocco and Baldelli are staying next year, the whole coaching staff should be replaced. They need to quit being so surprised and frustrated when Buxton's season abruptly ends again. All they need to do is sign a FA that may be willing to play center field half time for 100 mil over 7 years. This organization needs to do some real soul searching to get team back into contention. And quit blaming the WHOLE season on bad luck and injuries. The injuries mounted in September but that's no excuse for their poor play from June 1 to September 1. If 2023 turns out to be another disaster instead of what many said would be a contending year the Rocco and FO need to go.

You didn’t prefer celestino instead? ?

Like Ernie Yake, Kyle Schmidt before him, even Frank Nigro this season...you soemtimes float all over the place because of organizational needs and you might be able to handle it more than a guy on a stricter development path.

The failure to pinch hit Correa in the sixth, down a run and with the bases loaded, is baffling.

I had to chuckle that this is considered one his best big-league seasons... for what reason? He had career high homers in 28. He played in 56% of the games since he will be out the rest. K rate was 34%. Is that enough from a $10MM a year guy? To play in 56% of the games with a pretty fair amount at DH isn't quite the impact I was looking for. Once you have surgery on a knee, most likely more to come, hope not though. We always when healthy he could be best CF in the game, WHEN will be the key phrase. Hope for a good recovery that doesn't linger next year. Track record of our guys having season ending surgeries and then next year looking back to normal hasn't been good.

Ted, your points are solid and it will likely be the case that the FO and Rocco are back. Here are a few thoughts though. First, there will (should) be a “massive” lineup shakeup before Opening Day 2023. Correa, Sanchez, Urshela, Kepler, Sano, Bundy, Archer, Pagan plus maybe one or two more will in all likelihood be gone. Those are eight players that were essentially “starters” when the season began. These departures open up a lot of cash for FAs and opportunity for younger players. Second, what exactly has our manager and coaching staff done to build confidence in our ownership that they are the right people to lead a new, substantially revamped lineup? Do they have exhibit the in-game strategies/decision-making to “steal” more wins than they lose? How are they at getting the team to play solid fundamental baseball (a must for any mid-market team)? What’s been their ability for keeping players on the field (or is that just luck anyway)? What is their track record for developing young major leaguers (Miranda, Gordon and Arraez seem to have positive momentum, but Kepler, Sano, Berrios, and others stagnated badly and the jury is still out on others like Kiriloff, Larnach, and Jeffers)? Is a good clubhouse enough and are we certain that is even the case (I have no reason to doubt it’s the case). Any objective analysis would conclude that the coaching staff has underperformed, perhaps significantly, in these areas. Unless some massive improvements occur (and, again, what evidence is there that is possible), there is little chance that a mid-market team like the Twins led by Rocco can realistically contend. If it’s a package deal - the FO and Rocco together - then you are probably correct: they both stay and we should not expect anything other than another “wait ‘til next year” in 2023, But if I’m the FO (and certainly the Pohlads), I’m not sure I’d want to hitch my wagon to the current coaching staff - remember, they have careers and a business to run too.

Next season is definitely a crossroads year. They're starting out at a much better baseline for the rotation and the bullpen then they did last year before free agency began, which is good. No reason to dumpster-dive for reclamation projects for the rotation, and if anyone does get signed that way they should know they're not getting in on scholarship and might be moved into a long relief role. Personally, I would say the standard on the rotation is "don't sign anyone not expected to be better than Joe Ryan. This is not a knock on joe, but a notation that their improvement need to be top-end, not backside) the lineup is where we're really looking at uncertainty, despite having a number of quality players. We don't know who plays SS. The entire OF has amazingly high variance. Larnach & Kirilloff are really talented, but have never shown it over a season because of injury. Wallner has only a cup of coffee. Buxton is awesome, but seems unlikely to reach 100 games for the 5th straight season. Celestino has shown improvement, but is still young. Garlick can't stay healthy. Kepler seems to have hit his ceiling and the 2019 explosion looks like a juiced ball fluke year. They need decisions at 3B, SS, and 1B and reinforcements at catcher. If the lineup implodes again next season, then we're looking at really big changes, because it means that guys like Kirilloff/Larnach/Wallner aren't able to step in and be the future in the corners. That they can't find a defensive home for Miranda or Arraez. And if that happens, I think you'll see bigger changes in the team, from the front office on down. YMMV on how beneficial that will be. They need to get the offseason right, they need a little injury luck, and they need a couple of young players to really be hitters. A rotation with Mahle, Gray, Ryan, Maeda, & Ober could be quite good. A bullpen with Lopez, Duran, Jax, Alcala, Thielbar & Moran could be quite good. But they'll need a lineup of Polanco, Buxton, Arraez, Miranda, Kirilloff, Larnach, and jeffers to also be good and to play.

Completely disagree with this Ted. A competent FO does not go with short hooks on the SP without a BP to back it up. An incredibly smart FO doesn't pitch Archer and Bundy back to back that chews up what little BP they have. A FO with very good ideas gets a fourth outfielder at the trade deadline knowing Buxton is really hurt. Unlike all of us on TD the FO actually has the inside information to make informed decisions.

I'm confused - didn't we have this exact same conversation at the end of last season? What exactly do we expect to see change? We know who these folks are, and we clearly see their results. I don't think those results warrant another year of futility. If we fans don't push aggressively for change NOW - at the very least a new manager + pitching and hitting coaches - I fear we'd be making the same exact mistake as sticking with Colome or Pagan. Yes, there was past success with both, but the results now are pretty clearly damaging the team's chances at winning.

Old style* (except i am lazy) 1. Angels... Should we pity their stars who play so wel, but whose teams somehow fall out of competition? Or have they become a model franchise for us? 2. Strike. Did the lock out accomplish useful goals? Closing in on one full season, and if we can review the Pagan-Rooker trade, perhas we have insight to offer on the labor situation. 3. Fall weather. Is it all it is supposed to be? i am looking at cloudless blue skies and crisp autumn air, myself, but i am in New England... Right, it used to be game thread intro requirement to have a comment on game conditions... 62F, 14% chance precipitation. 4. AA is gone (Seattle?). BB is surgerying. CC is back in the line up at SS. Where is BC? BC obviously stands for Bruce Campbell, an underrated B movie star. I'm pretty sure our sports teams would be winning if only he'd said the words... 5. What do you put in waffles? I keep changing my mind... Them: 0. Reid Detmers (L) P 1. Luis Rengifo (S) 2B 2. Mike Trout (R) CF 3. Shohei Ohtani (L) DH 4. Taylor Ward (R) RF 5. Mike Ford (L) 1B 6. Matt Duffy (R) 3B 7. Matt Thaiss (L) C 8. Mickey Moniak (L) LF 9. Livan Soto (L) SS Us: 0. Joe Ryan (R) P 1. Jose Miranda (R) DH 2. Carlos Correa (R) SS 3. Luis Arraez (L) 1B 4. Gio Urshela (R) 3B 5. Gary Sanchez (R) C 6. Gilberto Celestino (R) CF 7. Jake Cave (L) LF 8. J. Palacios (R) 2B 9. Matt Wallner (L) RF *in the high and far off times, o best beloved, the elephant had no trunk, National League pitchers batted, and the TD member who went by the moniker of RiverBrian wrote introduced each series, the location and opponent with some intellectually stimulating prose... His style was to give 5 things.

A,A,,A,,A,,

I got Nothing but Love for Jake. Maybe some of his hustle will rub off onto the rookies.

I think it's a pendulum swing. It went too far ... now has to come back. It's always about finding the balance. And for you and others, as has been said as many times as has your questioning Rocco's decisions, it's a FO philosophy that needs adjustment, for sure. I have never said otherwise. But, it's not Rocco doing this alone, imo. But he is part of the whole and the whole needs to adjust. As has already been confirmed, Rocco is coming back next season, and likely will as long as Falvey and Levine are employed. If not Rocco, it will still be someone who executes the way the FO office wants. I just hope this off-season, someone can supply the right tweaks. I've never denied that there were times I think the starter could have been left in for longer, but, the fault really lies with the pitchers we had, more than anything else, imo. The number of times a pitcher could have gone longer, I just don't think equates and correlates alone to the number of losses we've had and I don't think it's simply a common sense issue, either. Had we had a reliable and durable BP, some of this may not have been as much of an issue. And none of these decisions I think equates to them not committed to winning, as someone suggested above, just because they don't do as we think they should. We all have our opinions on that, but I don't agree with that conclusion.

No it isn't.... all you have to do is look to see who is managing, then it all makes sense.

Cal Ripken never took a "scheduled day off" from May 29, 1982 until September 20, 1998, and the 1986 - 1988 Baltimore Orioles were pretty bad, he probably could have used a mental wellness day...

Interesting. Hopefully, the Twins realize that how they use starters means they must have at least two relievers who can throw 2 to 3 innings every third or fourth day. Can Ober become a top member of the bullpen in this role? I would think the answer is yes, but is this the best use of his arm?

"Scheduled day off"

Injured injured everybody's injured. And . . . Trevor Larnach who was out with core muscle problems has a sore wrist. Jorge Polanco continues to have knee inflammation. Max Kepler still has a sore wrist. Tyler Malle has shoulder inflammation and won't return this year . . . and so forth and so on.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. All the days off and load management, what did they accomplish? Is it because other teams do it and we think we should too? Again, it’s the same as limiting starting pitchers. Other teams do it so we should too. Except we don’t have the bullpen to compensate. Same with giving guys days off. How much of a drop off are the replacements? I think the entire organizational philosophy stinks. Something is rotten from the ground up. Guys are not showing up to the ML with even the minimal prerequisite fundamental skills that this organization made its name on. We have more coaches than members of Congress and guys don’t even know how to run the bases. More numbers for more situations yet we’ve played 46-61 ball for the last 4 months. And where are we at, farm system wise? After we lost two good prospects for a guy we knew had injury issues? Man it just seems like it’s going to be a long time til we break that playoff loss streak.

Preseason projections from 6 months ago, prior to the Twins having an 11 game cushion, and the division being an absolute dumpster fire, are irrelevant. It was in the post game thread last night, the Twins are 46-61 since May 24th. That's 90+ loss baseball for 4 months... A shakeup of mid to low level staffers is just scapegoating.

I know our existing training staff is only 2 years in - but how about we re-evaluate them. No manager or F.O. could have won this year with the amount of players on the IL that never made it back, or took way longer than expected to return after injuries.