Game Recap: White Sox 6, Twins 1

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT. 

USAFChief just said it.  You even quoted him!?

The only redeeming feature during the past handful of games has been the give and take of Bremer and Kaat.  Can we keep Kaat as the color guy? Or is he nearing retirement? Ha! The absolute lack of run production in meaningful places during a game has been one of the most distressing aspects of watching the Twins this year. Not to mention pitching, base running, fielding, throwing and run producing rallies. There's no counterpunching. 

Well, these last two series have really shown how wide the gap is between this year’s Twins and this year’s White Sox. They just have substantially better start pitching, a better bullpen, and a better lineup. Time for us to retool or we’re going nowhere against these guys for the next few years.

43 minutes ago, Grasslander said:

The only redeeming feature during the past handful of games has been the give and take of Bremer and Kaat.  Can we keep Kaat as the color guy? 

He lost me when he starting talking about outlawing protective gear and pine tar for hitters while simultaneously advocating for pitchers to "back guys off the plate more often." 

I wonder what Buxton is thinking, and hope he is more anxious to get back with us, than anxious to get away from us. I am embarrassed about this. We just generally don't play well. We need Buxton, and we need to hang in there with him. The white sox have an excellent starting 5, and a great closer, and we are not competitive against them.

We must build an excellent starting 5, build something decent around Rogers, and dig in on Byron Buxton. I expect we move most of the expiring vet contracts one way or the other to get our prospects on the field in Aug/Sept, and we have talent - what we don't have is a white sox pitching staff.

Aren’t RBI’s and BA/RISP related. RBI’s are a counting stat, while BA/RISP is a percentage stat. Having a higher RBI total is definitely indicative of being able to produce with men on base over the course of a lengthy season. In a normal baseball lineup, the manager would ascertain who would be most likely to get on base, and follow them with those who seem most comfortable and productive driving them in. 
 

Yes, it can be argued that a 8,9, or 1 hitter doesn’t get as many opportunities to add to his total. But as a rule there is a reason the guy is batting in those positions. Or at least there used to be! 

Just a terrible team, about had it with Pineda too.  His performance has really fallen off, hopefully is just the injury

Toast. Everyone is toast.

Dr. Evil returned to 2021 from the future and sucked the mojo out of the Twins, there is no hope.

RBI is a function of team performance which is why a lot of people tend to favor other stats. "Clutch" or essentially AVG wRISP hasn't been shown to be sustainably different from a players normal AVG, and a good AVG wRISP does not directly correspond to a high RBI total.

Team A .274/.350/.445, Player Y = .264/.322/.473 wRC+ 118 RISP .233 = 47 RBI

Team B .218/.293/.381, Player Z = .286/.347/.402 wRC+ 112 RISP .382 = 31 RBI

Player Z is one of the best hitters on Team B, but he's not quite as good at the plate overall than Player Y. In his favor, Player Z also has an unsustainable batting average with RISP of .382. Yet, his RBI total is pretty poor at 31.

Player Y is a middle of the pack hitter on Team A and he's hitting marginally better than Player Z. Player Y is especially weak with RISP with his .233 average. Still, he's on pace for close to 100 RBI this year.

RBIs are generally a function of how good the teams overall lineup is, not a function of how good a particular hitter is. Also, a good hitter in the middle of the bad lineup gets no protection. The hitter is unlikely to see good pitches to hit because opposing pitching staffs will just pitch around the good hitter. Walks only produce RBI when the bases are loaded.

Relying on counting stats and reputations for being "clutch" is how a lot of fans (including myself) believe pedestrian players get into the HoF.

Only relevant information to come out of this game: Pineda unlikely to have an trade value at the deadline

6 hours ago, USAFChief said:

RBI are "meaningless."

There’s an extremely wide gap between “RBIs don’t tell us much about how good an individual player is” and “driving in runs doesn’t matter.” The point of the game is to score more than your opponent!

The argument from the RBI haters gets so tedious. Look...the name of the game is score more runs than the other guy. If my guy comes up with RISP and gets the hit that drives in the run....I'm happy. Period. Stats be damned. I don't care how its done...just score more runs. Twins aren't doing that very well.

As for Buxton..I can't imagine in any scenario, him wanting to stay with the Twins. He has had a rather stormy relationship with the organization from the get-go. He will catch the first oxcart out of town, when the time comes. I wish it weren't so, but I believe he wants out. This season isn;t helping the cause for him to stay.

4 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Which pedestrian players are in the HOF?

Jack Morris for one.

10 hours ago, bean5302 said:

RBI is a function of team performance which is why a lot of people tend to favor other stats. "Clutch" or essentially AVG wRISP hasn't been shown to be sustainably different from a players normal AVG, and a good AVG wRISP does not directly correspond to a high RBI total.

Team A .274/.350/.445, Player Y = .264/.322/.473 wRC+ 118 RISP .233 = 47 RBI

Team B .218/.293/.381, Player Z = .286/.347/.402 wRC+ 112 RISP .382 = 31 RBI

Player Z is one of the best hitters on Team B, but he's not quite as good at the plate overall than Player Y. In his favor, Player Z also has an unsustainable batting average with RISP of .382. Yet, his RBI total is pretty poor at 31.

Player Y is a middle of the pack hitter on Team A and he's hitting marginally better than Player Z. Player Y is especially weak with RISP with his .233 average. Still, he's on pace for close to 100 RBI this year.

RBIs are generally a function of how good the teams overall lineup is, not a function of how good a particular hitter is. Also, a good hitter in the middle of the bad lineup gets no protection. The hitter is unlikely to see good pitches to hit because opposing pitching staffs will just pitch around the good hitter. Walks only produce RBI when the bases are loaded.

Relying on counting stats and reputations for being "clutch" is how a lot of fans (including myself) believe pedestrian players get into the HoF.

I am not disagreeing that BA/RISP is not a useful stat, it definitely is a way to define a players ability in those situations. Nor do I believe that some players hit "better" with a RISP. Normally the best ones simply stay to their normal level. Not try to overdue the opportunity. 
 

As an aside I think lost in the discussion is the fact that advanced stats may be good for the organizations running the teams, but detrimental to the normal fans discussion of the game. For example, one can argue that RBI’s are passé, and BA/RISP is the real deal. It’s a good argument. But the next refinement is BA/RISP when? When behind? When ahead by 6? And of course, late and great. I am sure there are stats that quantify everyone of those instances. But by the time you get to the bottom of them, most fans have fallen asleep, or worse than that for MLB, tuned into the. NBA finals, or reruns of Real Housewife’s of almost any city in America! 

The ridiculous banter regarding rbi production is ridiculous.  Just as the new wave of boring analytics is ruining the game.  The game thrived for decades without all of the invented and discovered stats.  Now the game is boring and becoming unwatchable.  Add in a poor team that manages by computer and trends and refuses or is unable to manage in game is sad.