Talks with Bronson Arroyo "heating up"

[gunnarthor]

I don't think anyone thought the Twins were going to outbid anyone and that's the problem. You are never going to be able to sign good players if you don't outbid everyone else.

 

You realize a lot of teams outbid the Twins to sign worse players, right? Jackson, Saunders, Blanton, Haren, Marcum, Lannon, Baker, Dempster, McCarthy etc. That's the problem with trying to rebuild through free agency.

[JB_Iowa]

As for timing which pitcher you sign first, its not always something you can control. You start with what you can and add for your other open needs as you can.

 

I don't think you should really evaluate individual pieces of an off-season -- it really needs to be how the total "plan" plays out. Let's just hope that the Twins have a plan and that its a good one.

[JB_Iowa]

Well, Willihammer, I'm not a Pohlad pocket protector. My thought would be that signing Arroyo (although I'd rather overpay for 2 than go 3) would be that it gives some stability that let's you take a flyer or two on some younger pitchers with upside. Pohlad's pockets be d*mned. (I also don't have much faith in saving spots so if they can sign 3 FA pitchers instead of 2, all the better).

[TheLeviathan]

It's a pretty valid concern that a guy who is this old already has lost that much velocity. But like I said, I'd just be thrilled by the expansion of effort this represents.

 

Also, there is some real hypocrisy in the notion that three years for a 37 year old is a good thing but five years to a 29 year old is too risky.

[kab21]

The optimist in me wants to believe that the Arroyo talk is about securing a solid pitcher while a bigger splash is made later in the offseason.

 

The realist in me believes that this offseason will be about acquiring some veteran players that make the team less embarrassing but not actually good (or younger).

 

I really don't have a problem with Arroyo but this is a lot like signing Correia last year. Rather uninspiring but it maintains the mountains of payroll flexibility for the next decade.

[gunnarthor]

Has anyone suggested a 3 year deal? I might have missed it but I think most of us seem to think it'll be in the 2yr/10m range, which would be fine.

[howieramone1406390264]

It's a pretty valid concern that a guy who is this old already has lost that much velocity. But like I said, I'd just be thrilled by the expansion of effort this represents.

 

Also, there is some real hypocrisy in the notion that three years for a 37 year old is a good thing but five years to a 29 year old is too risky.

 

When does a difference of opinion become hypocrisy? Baseball is only a game. Why not have some fun with it, without name calling?

[TheLeviathan]

When does a difference of opinion become hypocrisy? Baseball is only a game. Why not have some fun with it, without name calling?

 

Hypocrisy is an accurate description of maintaining contradictory arguments on a related point. There is no name calling to it, just an accurate descriptor. It's not in good form to decry the contract of, say, Sanchez and then laud a move like this. Especially if you emphasize risks associated with aging.

[Guest USAFChief]

Why on earth did you quote "unrealistic"? In your mind, would signing Sanchez and/or Grienke have made sense for the 2012 Twins?

It would have been 2013, but yes.

[cmathewson]

Sanchez, anyway. Not sure about Grienke.

[Shane Wahl]

What's amazing to me about this thread is that the Twins are considering signing a pitcher who has avg 202ip, 105 ERA+ and 3 WAR per season for the last couple years (while playing in a hitter's park) and people are complaining.

 

Yeah consistency is important. And one might believe that the homers drop in TF.

 

Also, anything that keeps Arroyo from retiring and pursuing his "music" career is good.

[Shane Wahl]

I predict a very Pavanoesque contract coming for Arroyo. There are too many teams looking for a consistent, low-risk guy like Arroyo. I will predict he ends up in San Francisco.

[Shane Wahl]

The two seasons on either side of that bad 2011 season are creepily similar.

[BigTrane]

An innings-eater is not a bad idea for this club, and I agree- IF he's the #2 along with a #1 SP signing. Twins might be able to push JJ's hometown buttons and get a favorable deal- why not take a shot?

 

I don't see Hudson coming to MN, but Hughes & Kazmir seem like reasonable targets/doable deals. E. Santana is dreaming $$$; we'll see if MLB drinks his Kool-Aid or not. If the bottom falls out for him, sign him.

 

What I do not understand is the Twins addiction to a nit-picking/nibbling the zone, pitch-to-contact philosophy when we have a pitcher's park. Does TR know where to drive come game time?

 

We have a different park now, play on grass, and the team's pitching coaching, philosophy & FA acquisitions must reflect this new reality. We have a surplus of OFs with speed & leather in place in or on the way- hello, Byron- and yet we are stuck in a small-ball/Dome-based approach, fooling nobody. Why?

 

For the first time I can remember, Twins have more cash than they know what to do with, and an owner willing to spend. FA signings can't do it all, but get a credible SR and go from there- talented fielders & bats are on the way, and they deserve to be supported with good SP. MN is flyover country for most MLB SP FAs, so we need to pony up to get into the conversation.

 

Why do Twins SPs take off once they leave MN? Apparently we can develop SPs and OFs. Why are the Twins MLB's gift that keeps on giving? This has to end eventually, and if TR doesn't come through this winter, show him the door. Almost time for a housecleaning.

[Otto von Ballpark]

This is the man who also said Correia "left money on the table." Turns out Willingham did too.

 

So what I suspect is going on is the same thing this offseason. Ryan casting a wide lowball net, fishing for players with a unique reason to play in MN for a discount. And when he doesn't find any, the lip service we get is "they want to play for a contender." Well, if that's true, then I guess none of these guys will wind up in Chicago, Seattle, NYM, Houston, etc.

 

This is pretty much my take on it too. (My "Like" button disappeared?)

[Otto von Ballpark]

I predict a very Pavanoesque contract coming for Arroyo. There are too many teams looking for a consistent, low-risk guy like Arroyo. I will predict he ends up in San Francisco.

 

Like, Yankees Pavano-esque? 4 years? I don't see that.

 

More like Twins Pavano-esque (2/16) with a boost for durability/inflation.

[Trevor0333]

Teams can only spend from their draft pool as determined by record on international FA.

[Dman]

If ever there was a time for the Twins to go after the high risk high reward pitcher this is it. As long as they can keep the contract to four years or fewer go after the strike out pitchers. Even if the guy gets hurt the first day on the job you have tons of pitch to contact pitchers in AAA. For once things line up to go after a real pitcher there really are no good excuses here. Swing for the fences Terry don't get caught in double play.

[Riverbrian]

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/231680191.html

 

 

 

This is the man who also said Correia "left money on the table." Turns out Willingham did too.

 

So what I suspect is going on is the same thing this offseason. Ryan casting a wide lowball net, fishing for players with a unique reason to play in MN for a discount. And when he doesn't find any, the lip service we get is "they want to play for a contender." Well, if that's true, then I guess none of these guys will wind up in Chicago, Seattle, NYM, Houston, etc.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I guess... You and I just read it different.

 

You see a lot more in between those lines.

[jay]

I guess... You and I just read it different.

 

You see a lot more in between those lines.

 

That's what is so great about the internet. You can make any sort of conclusion or assumptions you want!

 

Problem is, there's no way to make a solid, evidence-based case otherwise based on the track record (outside of quotes, which so often get manipulated to fit a narrative). I'm afraid even should there be examples soon, it'll be mocked as 'that one time' or some other fault.

[Riverbrian]

That's what is so great about the internet. You can make any sort of conclusion or assumptions you want!

 

Problem is, there's no way to make a solid, evidence-based case otherwise based on the track record (outside of quotes, which so often get manipulated to fit a narrative). I'm afraid even should there be examples soon, it'll be mocked as 'that one time' or some other fault.

 

I agree that quotes are often stretched... pulled... twisted to match the readers particular minds eye.

 

However... On the other side... Quotes are often carefully crafted by those being quoted and often end up being a false or incomplete impression of what is real behind the doors.

 

I rarely trust quotes. I've been quoted... I've had to carefully choose the words I used to protect relationships and strategy and at the same time I've seen the context stripped away from my quotes and end up printed with a perception 10 miles from the truth without the surrounding context.

 

In the end... The quotee... Can't be comprehensive... The quoter can't be comprehensive and nuance is hopelessly gone before it can even start. On top of that... The reader has varied levels of understanding and prejudice or even interest.

 

Yeah... I rarely put trust in quotes. As a way of getting information.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Tim Hudson to the Giants, 2/23, taking out a rumored Arroyo suitor. (The Giants were also rumored, albeit weakly, to be inquiring after Nolasco.)

 

What does that mean for Arroyo's expected contract? Hudson is coming off injury, although not to his arm, but when healthy, he is a bit better/safer than Arroyo, I think.

[Kwak]

Tim Hudson to the Giants, 2/23, taking out a rumored Arroyo suitor. (The Giants were also rumored, albeit weakly, to be inquiring after Nolasco.)

 

What does that mean for Arroyo's expected contract? Hudson is coming off injury, although not to his arm, but when healthy, he is a bit better/safer than Arroyo, I think.

 

Not sure what his compensation means but Hudson pitched for Oakland and SF has won the Series twice in the previous four seasons, so it's reasonable to think they still have a "contending" team.

[Brandon]

Also the Hudson signing doesn't mean the Giants wont still sign Arroyo too.

 

Also I haven't heard any new rumors out there. Does anyone know when we plan to get around to making offers? or Are we going to wait till the dust settles and go with what's left?

[Chance]

Does that bother anyone else; us going after guys hard but a week later and still no rumored offers? I had hopes that they were ready to wow some guys and get them to sign early, but with each passing day I become a little more sceptical.

[clutterheart]

Does that bother anyone else; us going after guys hard but a week later and still no rumored offers? I had hopes that they were ready to wow some guys and get them to sign early, but with each passing day I become a little more sceptical.

 

No need for skepticism. Just because there hasn't been formal offers put out there doesn't mean they are not talking numbers. I would guess we have a lot of agents waiting for first deals to get out there and then the dominoes will start falling.

 

By all accounts the FO is going out and trying for some of the top names in the FA pool. That is way different than last year, and really its all we can ask for, to be in the mix. Hopefully they can land a few.

[Oldgoat_MN]

P.S. To the Moderators/rulers of TD... Please bring back the Like Button.... please!!

 

Like!

[notoriousgod71]

No need for skepticism. Just because there hasn't been formal offers put out there doesn't mean they are not talking numbers. I would guess we have a lot of agents waiting for first deals to get out there and then the dominoes will start falling.

 

By all accounts the FO is going out and trying for some of the top names in the FA pool. That is way different than last year, and really its all we can ask for, to be in the mix. Hopefully they can land a few.

 

Just sign Tanaka. Even if he failed miserably I don't think any fans would be upset. I'm sick of scraping the bottom of the barrel or having an ultimate best case scenario of getting Arroyo or Nolasco.

[Oldgoat_MN]

Does that bother anyone else; us going after guys hard but a week later and still no rumored offers? I had hopes that they were ready to wow some guys and get them to sign early, but with each passing day I become a little more sceptical.

 

Yes. It bothers me. A lot.

 

I know it's early. I know there is plenty of time.

But that is what you do when you are pussy-footing around, trying to get a deal.

 

The Twins need to stand up and actually PAY for a potential top of the rotation pitcher. There are a few out there that might actually have excellent years. The kind of arms that are not a band-aid for 2014, but maybe useful for the Twins' future.

 

They are so proud of players who leave money on the table to sign here. Well, congratulations. That is part of what has gotten us 3 seasons in a row in which our team lost over 95 games.

 

Arroyo would be fine, but only if there was a significant signing along with him.

 

TR is concentrating on the wrong end of the list right now.

I have lost all confidence that he has any intention in signing a pitcher that will be above league average.

 

So much so that I have stopped coming to TD many days. Love the Twins, hate what occurs as a lie of an effort to improve the club.

 

And you don't even have a like button any more.

My world crumbles...

[johnnydakota]

What does the velocity of a fastball have to do about whether a pitcher is any good or not. Greg Maddux was one of the greatest pitchers in the 90's and never threw over 89 mph on a good day and he will be a Hall of Famer on the first ballot. I am not trying to compare Arroyo with Maddux by no means but you don't need to throw hard to win you just have to be smart and know how work the strike zone.

 

While Bronson Arroyo is hands down a better starter then any thing the twins had last year , he is once again what a Ryanite would covet, a soft tossing controll pitcher....While having 1 or 2 in your rotation is ok having 5 makes it to easy for the opposing team, no contrast