Article: Twins Trade Justin Morneau To Pirates

[PseudoSABR]

Here is what we know from the Twins perspective:

 

2 marginal prospects (assuming the Welker reports are true) + ~$2 million (Morneau's remaining salary)> ??? prospect(s)

We actually don't know if there was any other offer. I find it far more prudent for the Neil Huntington to ask the owner for more money than to give away a better prospect. Why the heck would the Pirates include a better prospect when their owner was willing to pay Morneau's contract?

 

If the situation were reversed and the Twins were acquiring a veteran talent for the pennant race, would you want them to include a better prospect so they could save a couple of million at most? Of course not.

[Oxtung]

We actually don't know if there was any other offer.

That's why I put ???. In which case 2 Marginal prospects + $2 million > 2 Marginal Prospects + $0.

 

I find it far more prudent for the Neil Huntington to ask the owner for more money than to give away a better prospect. Why the heck would the Pirates include a better prospect when their owner was willing to pay Morneau's contract?

 

If the situation were reversed and the Twins were acquiring a veteran talent for the pennant race, would you want them to include a better prospect so they could save a couple of million at most? Of course not.

 

I don't know why, but I do know they did it just this week in the Mets deal so it certainly isn't out of the question.

 

So again, there is a little bit of evidence suggesting there might have been more available if the Twins paid Morneau's salary. Do you have any evidence supporting your suppositions?

[Highabove]

As stated earlier, there are plenty of Alex Presley's in the minor league free agent market. The Twins are always an active participant.

 

Today, the Twins acquired St. Paul Saints Pitcher Mark Hamburger for a few thousand dollars. Hamburger, may even have more up side then newly acquired Duke Welker.

Why bother trading for these type of players. They can be picked up for next to nothing.

 

[kab21]

I'm surprised at how many negative posts there are about the Morneau trade (mostly dumping) considering that there were an almost equal number of criticisms of the FO for not doing this exact thing a couple of days ago.

 

I would have just kept Morneau but this trade isn't a travesty. This is his trade value. And I think Presley is a better 4th OF'er option than some give him credit for. He's a bit redundant with Mastro around but he has only played 10 games this season. And CF depth killed the MLB Twins this year.

[Major League Ready]

It's hilarious how people just like to paint TR to be some bumbling idiot. "Well why didnt he ask for a better player?????"

 

Yes clearly a guy with the success and background like Ryan would just happen to forget to ask for the best package possible

 

Part of this is that people tend to draw conclusions with only a portion of the information. For example, why did the Twins hold on to drew Brutera. Remember when we let Joe Benson go and so many people wanted to know why we did not let Butera go? There has likely been interest in Butera from other teams. We don't know these things.

 

Part of it is just the nature of being a fan. We all want the best trades, the best draft, and the best free agents. The desires of being a fan and the thought process that goes with it is often very different than the thought process associated with being in charge of the team. There were advocates of getting Hamilton or Grienke last year. Either move would have been considered incredibly stupid for a tean in the Twin's position by every GM in the major leauges but fans love big aquisitions.

 

Part of it is that very VERY few people have negotiated multi-million dollar deals or had profit and loss responsibility for organizations that produce 9 digit revenues. It's kind of hard to know what you don't know. It's kind of like me telling my builder with 30 years experience how to build a house.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Just curious: have the Twins ever kicked in cash in a deal? I don't recall it ever happening....

[Guest USAFChief]

Part of this is that people tend to draw conclusions with only a portion of the information. For example, why did the Twins hold on to drew Brutera. Remember when we let Joe Benson go and so many people wanted to know why we did not let Butera go? There has likely been interest in Butera from other teams. We don't know these things.

 

Part of it is just the nature of being a fan. We all want the best trades, the best draft, and the best free agents. The desires of being a fan and the thought process that goes with it is often very different than the thought process associated with being in charge of the team. There were advocates of getting Hamilton or Grienke last year. Either move would have been considered incredibly stupid for a tean in the Twin's position by every GM in the major leauges but fans love big aquisitions.

 

Part of it is that very VERY few people have negotiated multi-million dollar deals or had profit and loss responsibility for organizations that produce 9 digit revenues. It's kind of hard to know what you don't know. It's kind of like me telling my builder with 30 years experience how to build a house.

How do we know that?

[OldManWinter]

No Deal. Morneau Still An Important Twin.

[pierre75275]

I think the twins absolutely have ti sign morneau at the end of the season. The fans need somebody to watch. Who is going to be excited about watchin parmalee or colabello play first? Or corria pitch to a under league average era? Or guys like Thomas and pressly or mastro play daily? Nobody wants to watch that

[jay]

No one knows what the negotiations were, the ignorance argument is garbage. What we know is Pirates ownership had to approve going over budget. Which very likely meant the bulk of negotiations had the Pirates Gzm working to avoid that. Which likely means had we been willing to help them avoid that dilemma the compensation MAY have been better.

 

its the most simple, reasonable conclusion. It would've been nice if we had entertained that notion. As it is I think the Twins organization is pretty principled against doing that (their decision, that's fine) and it may have cost us value. I don't understand the insistence on ignoring the most reasonable solution. Notice - i am not, nor implying they are cheap. I don't know their reasons, but it's clear they don't entertain that option even in prudent situations.

 

It's not ignorance. It's just as simple and reasonable to conclude that the Pirates weren't going to give up a better prospect to get a .741 OPS first baseman for a month.

 

Of course the Pirates GM is going to praise ownership for approving the additional salary. As the GM, who needs to build the franchise, why would he want to give up prospects over salary? He wouldn't.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

Having the Twins pay Morneau's salary changes the whole dynamic of the deal. Morneau isn't worth what he's getting paid.

 

if the Twins offered say, Brian Duensing and $2.5 million, what would the return be? Would there even be a deal? Of course not. It wouldn't make sense for the Pirates to give up a top prospect for Brian Duensing and cash. In this case, If I'm the Pirates, I'm not giving up a top prospect and hurting my future for one month of Morneau. The cash and prospect would then become the centerpiece of the deal. Would you want to explain as a GM why you sold a top prospect to the Twins for a washed up 1B and cash? Now that's a PR hit.

 

The Twins are lucky to find any potential trading partners for a player of Morneau's value. He just isn't very good any more.

[howieramone1406390264]

I think the twins absolutely have ti sign morneau at the end of the season. The fans need somebody to watch. Who is going to be excited about watchin parmalee or colabello play first? Or corria pitch to a under league average era? Or guys like Thomas and pressly or mastro play daily? Nobody wants to watch that

 

I don't disagree with you and hope the Twins resign Justin. I don't believe attendance will be a problem. Last time I looked we averaged 31,000 this year, which says a great deal about how loyal Twins fans are and I think about what a great place Target Field is to watch a ball game. I heard the doomsayers predict that Target Field is going to become a parking lot. Well it never happened and never will. Like many fans, I would prefer ownership just pull out the check book and forego the need to rebuild. Barring this, I like to watch the new players.

[notoriousgod71]

We got more for Butera than we did for Morneau.

[TheLeviathan]

It's not ignorance. It's just as simple and reasonable to conclude that the Pirates weren't going to give up a better prospect to get a .741 OPS first baseman for a month.

 

Of course the Pirates GM is going to praise ownership for approving the additional salary. As the GM, who needs to build the franchise, why would he want to give up prospects over salary? He wouldn't.

 

I think the Pirates held out knowing they had all the leverage. Had the Twins helped pay the salary this would have been done sooner and also warrented more value.

 

Money, by all accounts but by posters here, was the factor holding off a deal. Its the only reasonable conclusion that it changed the value of the return. Now how much so is a validissue

[howieramone1406390264]

I think the Pirates held out knowing they had all the leverage. Had the Twins helped pay the salary this would have been done sooner and also warrented more value.

 

Money, by all accounts but by posters here, was the factor holding off a deal. Its the only reasonable conclusion that it changed the value of the return. Now how much so is a validissue

 

Terry Ryan once again positioned us into a win-win situation. No trade, we retain one of our best players for an additional 30 days, trade and we obtain 2 players on the 40 man roster of one of the better organizations in baseball.

 

I don't know how it can be explained much clearer than Seth's posts numbered 224 and 228. Continuing the "Twins are Cheap" mantra is not only lazy, it's silly.

[TheLeviathan]

Terry Ryan once again positioned us into a win-win situation. No trade, we retain one of our best players for an additional 30 days, trade and we obtain 2 players on the 40 man roster of one of the better organizations in baseball.

 

I don't know how it can be explained much clearer than Seth's posts numbered 224 and 228. Continuing the "Twins are Cheap" mantra is not only lazy, it's silly.

 

I won't directly respond but try to say it another way in hope of clarity.

 

The Pirates knew that if the Twins were going to trade him it would be to them. They knew other teams were put off by the money owed and the refusal to pay it. THey held out hoping the Twins would cave on the money. You can argue the value may not have changed much either way and Ryan ultimately got what he could (which contrary to your post was not much). What is clear is that the money was a hurdle - the Pirates were content to wait it out until the end and gve up what they did.

 

The real winner is Justin. Good for him and good that he had a hot august to help drive value.

[PseudoSABR]

I think the Pirates held out knowing they had all the leverage. Had the Twins helped pay the salary this would have been done sooner and also warrented more value.

You're just speculating. This isn't a fact. For all we know, the Pirates GM, having all the leverage, could have offered no more than the same package (Presley and Welker) AND demanded the Twins kick in for the contract. On the day of Morneau's lowest money cost, absorbing his contract perhaps became palatable to ownership and the Pirates actually gave the Twins what they wanted. We just don't really know, so it's hard to draw conclusions.

 

Money, by all accounts but by posters here, was the factor holding off a deal. Its the only reasonable conclusion that it changed the value of the return. Now how much so is a validissue

Money may have been an issue, but it doesn't mean that the Pirates were willing to give anything more of value. Why would the Pirates give up better prospects when they could ask their ownership to go over budget?

 

Why isn't it possible for TR to say, "Hey, we'll pay Morneau's contract, but we want a better player." And for Hunnington to respond, "No, ****ing way," knowing he could get ownership to take the contract as the deadline approached.

 

In the scenario's where the Twins pass up a better prospect requires the Pirates to be the dumb/cheap ones. I just don't buy it.

[Willihammer]

As the GM, who needs to build the franchise, why would he want to give up prospects over salary? He wouldn't.

 

Its all money from the same pot right? Presumably that is 2.2m more he could have spent in free agency this winter.

[Guest USAFChief]

Just as a reminder, let's all try to focus on the issues, and less on other posters please.

 

Thanks.

[PseudoSABR]

Hadn't seen this here yet.

 

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino Terry Ryan would not confirm Duke Welker as the PTBN and said the Pirates will choose the player from an agreed-upon list.

[TheLeviathan]

You're just speculating. This isn't a fact.

 

By all means, present the facts you have for your opinion. You've been asked a few times but thus far your contributions to the discussion are basically to ignore what is factual and focus on the speculative.

 

What is a fact (assuming you don't completely throw out every report by a journalist/beat reporter/accepted rumor site) is that we made money an issue. Not only do I not deny that the value may not have been all that different - I went so far as to call that a "valid issue" and "may not have changed much". I thought I had stated that fairly clearly.

 

But by no account - national media, local media, the local manager, or the deal that was ultimately done - was paying for his contract even on the table. There is ample evidence of this. Would it have mattered? Maybe not - maybe even probably not. But if it's never on the table....isn't that leaving some value out there?

 

I'd kind of like to know why organizationally we don't seem to entertain the idea. There may be a good reason for it for all I know, but it's tough to swallow when ya get a crummy return for a beloved player. (And, I should add, there is a chance that option may increase the return. If even a remote chance)

[DaveW]

If you are going to kick in 2 million in cash in the deal, you prob need to get a prospect who is at least worth a million to make it even close to worth it. I don't see the pirates giving up a top ten prospect just bc the twins kicked in some money.

[Willihammer]

But by no account - national media, local media, the local manager, or the deal that was ultimately done - was paying for his contract even on the table. There is ample evidence of this. Would it have mattered? Maybe not - maybe even probably not. But if it's never on the table....isn't that leaving some value out there?

 

Yes, of course it is.

 

But, why not trade Morneau and 10m cash?

 

Presumably at some point, you could crack into the Pirates top 10 prospects. This gets you around the spending caps and slot bonuses involved with other forms of prospect acquisition. The Pirates, a first place team, might value free agent money more than a last place team flush with cash like the TWins.

[Guest USAFChief]

Hadn't seen this here yet.

 

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino Terry Ryan would not confirm Duke Welker as the PTBN and said the Pirates will choose the player from an agreed-upon list.

The Pirates will choose?

[Otto von Ballpark]

The Twins still had some leverage: they still controlled Morneau and whether he could contribute to the 2013 Pirates.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, I know nothing about him, but Duke Welker is a great name, which is always appreciated on a ballclub.

[ashbury]

The Pirates will choose?

 

The Platinum Option would let the Twins choose without blackout dates, but it cost $2M and Terry turned it down.

[PseudoSABR]

The Pirates will choose?

Here's TR clarifying:

"I do not know who the player is, so I don't know how anybody else could," Ryan said. "You could speculate all you want about that thing. I am not going to acknowledge it."

 

Ryan said the teams agreed to a list of multiple players, but it will be the Pittsburgh Pirates who get to choose which player goes to the Twins. There are no stipulations changing the player's identity based on any outside factors, such as how Morneau performs for his new team.

"We've got a list and we're going to get one of those players," Ryan said. "Doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter how they fare. Doesn't matter what Morneau does. It's going to be (the Pirates') choice, which is OK because we've agreed to the players. I don't care whose choice it is as long as I get one of them."

 

[PseudoSABR]

By all means, present the facts you have for your opinion. You've been asked a few times but thus far your contributions to the discussion are basically to ignore what is factual and focus on the speculative.

In the very post you quote I mention that nearly all us are working without facts, we are speculating. Phrases like "For all we know..." and "We don't really know, so it's hard to draw conclusions" point to that.

 

Everyone continues to ignore how little sense it makes for the Pirates to take money from the Twins and give away a better prospect. I just don't think that option was ever on the table. Though, I imagine if the Twins kicked in money, the same deal would have gotten done quicker.

[TheLeviathan]

In the very post you quote I mention that nearly all us are working without facts

 

Those of us that aren't radically skeptical about most all baseball insiders, rumor sites, and journalists have some facts to work with. It's just, for whatever reason, being dismissed in favor of speculation.

 

The Pirates got cash in another deal and gave up a better prospect. That could be because of the players they dealt for, but it's counter-intuitive that you would receive more in the deal (cash) and not correspondingly give more in return. That's essentially what your position boils down to.

 

But we don't know and, to me the real issue, is that neither do the Twins because they never even entertained the idea by all reports.