Joe Mauer position change

[jokin]

Good debating. Really masterful. I wouldn't mind discussing the possibility of Mauer at 3rd. I imagine 1st was the easiest place to move Joe with Morneau being hurt and Joe not really having experience in other places. 3rd has more nuances than 1st, but one could hope that over an off-season Joe could be an equal to Plouffe defensively and progress from there. I'd like to entertain the idea of platooning plouffe with mauer. Plouffe plays on days against lefties and the occasional righty who doesn't have a sweet slider to make him look stupid (or any other pitch down and away). Plus, having an athletic 6'5" guy standing at third sounds pretty sweet. Certainly more intimidating than our old buddy Carroll. Thoughts?

Also, I realize Sano is on his way. But let's not assume he'll immediately succeed or be here next year for a second.

 

Two things that probably need to be repeated.

 

Mauer as a 1B is probably an elite defender. That will make him more valuable at tha position.

 

Also, if Mauer becomes a full time 1B he will almost certainly get 10 or so additional games worth of plate appearances. This also doesn't take into account he will have more quality at bats as a 1B as opposed to a C because he won't be as dealing with the fatigue or battering a catcher suffers from.

 

Simply put he will put up better numbers with additional at bats while providing elite defense at his new position. The difference in plate appearances over the balance of his career would also be substantial.

 

It seems a no brainer at this point.

 

I hope the Twins start using MORE of their brain-power and thinking out more thoroughly the potential scenarios for Mauer, starting in 2014, through to maximizing the return on his contract to 2018. The 1B option is the easy way out, and he may very well end up there, sooner or later.

 

But....

 

Mauer can get those same extra games and health-preserving plate appearances at Third, and he is more than athletic enough to become a very good, if not elite defender at the position. An elite defender at 1st is far less important at that position than having someone there that can consistently give you a shot at 35 HRs coupled with a high ISO (think Encarnacion). And playing 1B is often the only defensive option for sluggers. I'm definitely not a fan of another slightly higher-for-average Mark Grace at 1B if there are decent high-slugging options instead.

 

Vandy's proposal is what I've advocated for, for quite some time now and exactly what he proposes needs strong consideration by the Twins for 2014, at least as an interim move until the arrival of Sano. Has it fully sunk in how really good Plouffe is against lefties? This year, through tonight's game, his slash is All Star-like:

 

.308/.389/.500/.889.

 

Yes, it's a small sample, but those numbers are reflective of his career numbers, here is his career slash against lefties:

 

.277/.349/.512/.861.

 

Plouffe's value as a lefty-hitting specialist could be more properly exploited by more deeply talented or more creative teams than the Twins

 

Abreu would be the dream signing for First, but there are other cheap, short-term FA options at 1B for 2014, or it could be manned in-house.

[jay]

Here's a new article about Posey and the possibility of position change. Yes, 3B is mentioned.

Y! SPORTS

[Anorthagen]

As long as Mauer stays healthy and has a typically or above Mauer year he can play where ever. And if he doesn't play catcher I wouldn't mind Herrman playing there as long as he can keep his bat rolling.

[idowhatiwant]

I see it a little different. Sure having an offensive threat catching is nice, but Mauer doesn't call a good game IMO. He is reluctant the past several years to call for a strike out pitch in the dirt. Notice that Deduno mentioned how nice it was to have a catcher that encouraged him to throw his breaking ball in the dirt when he got to 2 strikes on hitters. That was a shot at Mauer and Doumit IMO. So having more K's seems worth moving Mauer to me.

[Beezer07]

I see it a little different. Sure having an offensive threat catching is nice, but Mauer doesn't call a good game IMO. He is reluctant the past several years to call for a strike out pitch in the dirt. Notice that Deduno mentioned how nice it was to have a catcher that encouraged him to throw his breaking ball in the dirt when he got to 2 strikes on hitters. That was a shot at Mauer and Doumit IMO. So having more K's seems worth moving Mauer to me.

 

I think Mauer calls a good game, and does the best with what he has. And it'd probably be best for Deduno if he didn't take shots at his catchers...at least until he does something worthwhile in the majors. Plus, can't he just throw the breaking ball in the dirt anyway?

[Jdosen]

Mauer is an elite hitter and his bat would play anywhere significantly above average, but I think it would be wise to keep him as high up on the defensive spectrum as possible. If I were in charge, I would try to use him at C about 75 times a year, 15-20 times at DH, and the rest at 3B or RF, where his outstanding arm and athleticism wouldn't go to waste. I think it would be a mistake to just move him to 1B while he is still this young. That should be for when he is 34+.

[Benchwarmerjim]

I not arguing for against Mauer moving to first permanently, but a name that comes to mind is John Olerud. Olerud hit more homeruns than Mauer ever would , but he hit for a good average and hit tons of doubles.

[Major League Ready]

The more I think about it, Abreu seems like a great move for this team. Let Joe play 60 or so games at first with Abreu at DH. We don't have anyone close. I would love to think Parmalee could take it to the next level but that seems like very wishful thinking.

 

Bring Pinto up when we are sure he is ready and fit him into the mix. If Vargas or Hicks come on bigtime, great, we have trade assets.

[Alex]

Here's a new article about Posey and the possibility of position change. Yes, 3B is mentioned.

Y! SPORTS

 

And so is positional value!

[mnfireman]

Lets take a look at our Minnesota Twins. They do not chase big name free agents, they develop prospects. Morneau is league average at 1B right now (check the stats). Herrmann and Doumit are above league average (smaller sample sizes, but nonetheless). Pinto is on the horizon. Colabello is old, Parmalee is AAAA (again check the stats) and there is no one in the higher minor leagues. Do they sign Morneau (if he'll take a pay cut and a 1 or 2 year contract) and hope for a return to better days or start a multi-player, multi-position rotation between Mauer, Pinto, Herrmann, Colabello, Doumit & Parmalee. Throw Willingham in at DH once in awhile and it probably looks like this:

C - Mauer, Pinto, Herrmann & Doumit

1B - Mauer, Colabello & Parmalee

RF - Arcia, Herrmann, Doumit & Ramirez

DH - Mauer, Doumit & Willingham

 

Doumit being the most position flexible could be traded to avoid the four catcher rotation.

This also assumes Hicks is ready in second go-round in CF. Then next September we see Sano, Rosario, Buxton & Romero.

[orangevening]

I think Mauer calls a good game, and does the best with what he has. And it'd probably be best for Deduno if he didn't take shots at his catchers...at least until he does something worthwhile in the majors. Plus, can't he just throw the breaking ball in the dirt anyway?

 

Where can we find Mauer (or Domit or Hermann) catching era (or advanced stats)? I think that would show even more how valuable Mauer is catching (or not).

 

Didn't we have this debate 2 years ago (the infamous bilateral leg weakness year)?

[jorgenswest]

I think Doumit will be a Twin next year. The Twins value him as a catcher. Other teams might value him as a bench bat. There won't be a match.

 

Assuming he is a Twin, Joe needs to catch. Gardenhire already has caught Doumit way too often this year. Without Joe as an option, Doumit might catch even more next year. Our pitching staff needs better.

 

Doumit is valuable in a bench role... pinch hit, DH, emergency catcher.

[jokin]

Lets take a look at our Minnesota Twins. They do not chase big name free agents, they develop prospects. Morneau is league average at 1B right now (check the stats). Herrmann and Doumit are above league average (smaller sample sizes, but nonetheless). Pinto is on the horizon. Colabello is old, Parmalee is AAAA (again check the stats) and there is no one in the higher minor leagues. Do they sign Morneau (if he'll take a pay cut and a 1 or 2 year contract) and hope for a return to better days or start a multi-player, multi-position rotation between Mauer, Pinto, Herrmann, Colabello, Doumit & Parmalee. Throw Willingham in at DH once in awhile and it probably looks like this:

C - Mauer, Pinto, Herrmann & Doumit

1B - Mauer, Colabello & Parmalee

RF - Arcia, Herrmann, Doumit & Ramirez

DH - Mauer, Doumit & Willingham

 

Doumit being the most position flexible could be traded to avoid the four catcher rotation.

This also assumes Hicks is ready in second go-round in CF. Then next September we see Sano, Rosario, Buxton & Romero.

 

Loney, Morales, Morse, Reynolds, Hart are all available. some will be cheaper than others, someb will be one-year bargain bin types, but none of these would break the bank. Ryan won't trade Doumit, he and Gardy are enamored with him, and they wouldn't get nearly enough in return to pull the trigger, anyway (unless the Dodgers are feeling charitable again?).

 

I'm not anxious for the 4 catcher alignment any time soon, I get enough acid-reflux from the 3-catcher scheme.

[Shane Wahl]

It's really troubling to consider that two of Morneau, Willingham, and Doumit are going to be around next year. Three is, of course, mindblowing. I would choose ZERO. Let Mauer catch 75, and split the rest (hopefully 75ish) between 1st and DH.

 

There is no room for Willingham AND Arcia. There certainly isn't room for those two and Doumit.

 

I would rather see an OF of Herrmann-Hicks-Parmelee with hopefully a healthy Mastroianni for platooning, and a Mauer-Colabello situation at 1B (with Parmelee and Romero being considered as well). I say let the youth (plus Colabello) get some time before Sano, Rosario, and Buxton join them instead of having all of these aging, depleting, decaying veterans who aren't going to be around after next year. The parts AROUND Sano, Rosario, and Buxton have to be figured out. Arcia and Dozier are the only non-Mauer players to secure something, and the one is a bit scary in the OF and the other is occupying Rosario's spot at the moment.

[Mike Sixel]

Shane is correct, 100% on that post above. Doumit has negative value, not sure why you'd keep him on the roster frankly.

 

Someone actually typed Morneua is league average for 1B and told us to "look it up"? He is not league average. He's actually closer to zero war than he is to the median 1B on Frangraphs. He is delivering .9 WAR this year, after deliver .3 WAR (again, one of the worst 1B in the game) in 2012. Not sure what "average" means, if it means worse than the median, way worse than the average WAR, and closer to exactly replacement than to median. In exchange for $13MM per year.....

[Winston Smith]

Easy they owe Mauer $115 mill after this year. You do whatever is the best way to keep him playing, wherever that may be. First and dh are the most likely. Catching is the least likely. One more foul tip to the mask and we have another Morneau like fall and a lot of money goes out the window along with your best player.

[jokin]

Easy they owe Mauer $115 mill after this year. You do whatever is the best way to keep him playing, wherever that may be. First and dh are the most likely. Catching is the least likely. One more foul tip to the mask and we have another Morneau like fall and a lot of money goes out the window along with your best player.

 

Unfortunately, you can't hope to recoup the annual $23M and $155M net to Mauer by having him playing the majority of his games at 1B and DH. He has to play the majority of his games at a premium position for any likelihood of getting proper return on that contract.

 

To put that into real-time perspective: Allen Craig is the closest comp at the plate that I can find to Mauer while playing as a First Baseman. He's currently valued at only slightly more than half of Mauer's WAR.

[Willihammer]

Where can we find Mauer (or Domit or Hermann) catching era (or advanced stats)? I think that would show even more how valuable Mauer is catching (or not).

 

Didn't we have this debate 2 years ago (the infamous bilateral leg weakness year)?

 

CERA is available on ESPN's site: 2013 Regular Season MLB Baseball C Fielding Statistics - Major League Baseball - ESPN

[Willihammer]

Unfortunately, you can't hope to recoup the annual $23M and $155M net to Mauer by having him playing the majority of his games at 1B and DH. He has to play the majority of his games at a premium position for any likelihood of getting proper return on that contract.

 

To put that into real-time perspective: Allen Craig is the closest comp at the plate that I can find to Mauer while playing as a First Baseman. He's currently valued at only slightly more than half of Mauer's WAR.

 

I'm not a Pohlad Pocket Protector but if I was concerned about getting the highest dollar value out of that contract, Mauer would have moved to 1B after the 2nd knee surgery. A slight overpay for sustained PT is miles better than an AROD type revolving DL situation.

[SpitefulRabbit617]

Anyone have the numbers in the past few seasons on how many of his dings have been at 1b?

[Winston Smith]

It's not his value as a catcher but his value playing or being on the dl long term. One more foul ball and he could be toast or at least a shell of himself. His value at 1b may not be what it is catching but his value sitting at home is zero.

[Benchwarmerjim]

Anyone have the numbers in the past few seasons on how many of his dings have been at 1b?

 

4 HRs in 55 games played at 1B (roughly 1 HR every 14 games)

91 HRs in 897 games played at C (roughly 1 HR every 10 games)