Joe Mauer position change

[nicksaviking]

Mauer to 1B--to deflect the negative press when Morneau leaves. Curious we didn't hear the "we need a third catcher refrain". Every time Joe gets an oowie the "move Mauer" birds start to chirp. They quiet down when he's back at catcher and things are "Jake".

 

You make it sound like moving Mauer to 1B will be received positively and will offset letting Morneau walk. That won't happen, and a full-time or even half-time move to 1B may actually give Mauer an unintended black eye. If it is percieved that Morneau had to be cast out because Mauer stole his position, how do you think the average Morneau-loving fan will react? Probably not the best.

 

I didn't hear the quote myself but from the original poster, Gardy mentioned a position change, not necissarily 1B. Perhaps the team is well aware of the kind of poisonous fruit planting that seed might produce.

[Shane Wahl]

The WAR argument here cracks me up. How is this (positional issues) STILL not understood????

[jsimssd72]

I love how everyone only talks about the offensive production from C to to 1b and and blah blah blah.. What about the Defensive end of this. Joe is our best D catcher, and one of the best in the game, and at 1b our D would decline with him there, that is why you wait. Joe has allowed about the same amount of SB as Doumit in around double the games. Teams just don't run against Joe. They also have the same amount of passed balls in those games and tell me if you want to throw an offspeed pitch that may bounce in a critial situation who do you want behind the plate blocking it? Then you add his O at that position which should allow the team to fill other postions that are much easier to find O he is invaluable there. The only issue the Twins dont take advantage of having a top O Catcher by having even average O players at the other postions.

[glunn]

My post doesn't mention his contract.

 

Let's be careful here. I can feel a squabble brewing and my banning finger is twitching a little bit.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I agree that he has more value as a catcher, but I disagree with the idea that a certain position should produce a certain way. If a team hits 150 homers and scores say 750 runs, why should it matter who hits the homeruns and scores/drives in the runs?

 

It's not about what a certain position SHOULD produce at. It's about what it does. Catching is rigorous on a player. Catchers as a whole tend to produce much worse than the league. Defense is also a premium there. Mauer does all of that well and can OPS around .900. At first, he's merely good. At catch, he's an HOF. It's a lot easier to find a 1B that will put up good offensive numbers than it is finding a catcher who will put up those numbers. That's just how it is. His contract is tied to catching, and that's where he should be as much as possible.

 

I agree in a lost season that we should save the life on his legs, but I would avoid moving him as long as possible.

[Guest USAFChief]

The WAR argument here cracks me up. How is this (positional issues) STILL not understood????

I agree.

 

That people still pay any attention to WAR--when even the two sites shilling it can't agree on how to calculate it--is hilarious.

[Alex]

I agree.

 

That people still pay any attention to WAR--when even the two sites shilling it can't agree on how to calculate it--is hilarious.

 

Even if you don't trust in the concept of WAR or it's accuracy, its existence has nothing to do with the added value a hitter like Mauer brings when he is able to play catcher.

 

Just look at next year IF Mauer does move to first base and it means we don't sign another first baseman. Let's use current stats. It means that his .880 OPS (this season) goes to first base. This nets us about +.130 OPS at 1st base, which is a gain. However, Doumit or Hermann start to play more catcher, which means that spot on the field is then filled by a player with a sub .700 OPS (-.180). Net loss is about -.50 OPS.

[Mike Sixel]

As a hitter, Mauer would be the 4th best offensive 1B in all of baseball......I'd take that right now. If someone came to the Twins, and said, here, take the 4th best hitting 1B in all of baseball, the Twins would say yes.

 

Does he lose some value in a position change? Probably, but I don't think it is as big a drop as people are arguing.

 

Unless, of course, people really think it is LIKELY Mauer will stay healthy and productive as a catcher, few (some) have.

 

1. I think he'd hit better not catching

2. Even if he hits the same, he's still one of the best 1B on the planet

3. The drop off from Mauer to the next catcher in MN is probably a big deal, I agree with this.

4. Mauer is useless if hurt, or needing a lot of rest. He is signed for quite some time. I'd prefer 1B, the position where he is less likely to get hurt.

 

For me, I'd have Mauer catch 60 or so games, at most at this point.

[Kwak]

I want Mauer to catch. There, now you have the start of the torrent. If you ask the average fan, I'm confident they would prefer Mauer at catcher too.

 

Oh, and then there's the plethora of good hitters in the minors would need a place to play--and some of them are trained at 1B.

[Shane Wahl]

A .320/.410/.450 Mauer catching is more valuable than the exact same stats as a first baseman, given the same amount of PAs. This is just not to be disputed. Yet, it . . . is???

 

Anyway, clearly there would be more PAs with Joe playing much more first base, and I would expect that his performance might improve, so that the stat lines wouldn't be the same. It's a tradeoff. I think the Twins should return to something like 2012 in terms of where Mauer plays and how often. Herrmann and Pinto should be capable of filling in (Doumit trade this offseason please).

[Beezer07]

I agree.

 

That people still pay any attention to WAR--when even the two sites shilling it can't agree on how to calculate it--is hilarious.

 

Why do I get the feeling that this is merely a convenient argument that has nothing to do with why you really don't like considering WAR. And either way, just pick one site and go with it. Shane's point is it is crazy that there still exists the inability to realize that two players who have equal offensive statistics, one at catcher and one at 1B, are nowhere near the same level of value to a major league team.

[Tibs]

Mauer has more value as a catcher because he is a good defensive player and even better hitter. I would rather see him at catcher, but he would still be one of the best first baseman in the league.

[terencemann]

I agree.

 

That people still pay any attention to WAR--when even the two sites shilling it can't agree on how to calculate it--is hilarious.

Because it's getting better over time and both Fangraphs and BBREF would probably tell you that the other site's WAR is actually a pretty good estimate of the player's over-all value?

 

It's probably a lot easier to pick up an average offensive first baseman on the cheap (the Rays have been doing it for years - not to make another "be like the Rays" post) than it is to pick up a catcher of equal value. I like what the Twins did by acquiring Doumit to play a lot of games behind the dish and also fill in at other positions and I hope they can figure out how to do something similar in the future. Positional flexibility is actually a pretty progressive idea and a pretty good idea, imho. Playing ~100 games at catcher isn't going to kill Mauer. This wasn't a very common injury and he gives them a ton of flexibility elsewhere by holding down catcher for 3/4 of the season.

[launchingthrees]

The WAR argument here cracks me up. How is this (positional issues) STILL not understood????

 

It's a combination of sad and cute but in reality it means many 0 sum games are beatable. vs the general public.

[jay]

Anyone trying to argue that offensive contributions don't vary significantly across the positions is simply ignoring indisputable, hard numbers. Those variations result in expected levels of offensive contribution at each of the positions. A run counts the same on the scoreboard, but it's an awful lot harder to find a catcher (or MI) that can help you score runs than it is a first baseman (or corner OF).

 

That the concept of 'replacement level' is a tenet of sabermetrics is apparently enough for some folks to try to discredit and invalidate it... and that's ridiculous, particularly on a forum of what I'd like to consider as no less than moderately knowledgeable baseball fans.

[raindog]

I think a position change would be wise. But does it have to be 1B? Moving to 3B would be a long-shot at this point in his career, but how about corner outfield? He's an awesome athlete that could probably play plus defense in the outfield. Then the Twins could sign a big bopper, (Abreu!), to play 1B.

 

Still, I'd be just fine if he's the first baseman of the future. His bat plays anywhere, and why are we even talking about his contract anymore?

[Guest USAFChief]

It's a combination of sad and cute but in reality it means many 0 sum games are beatable. vs the general public.

I'll wager (if you're old enough) a few years ago you formed baseball judgements solely on Win Shares too.

 

How'd I do on that zero sum game?

[Shane Wahl]

I don't think anyone is actually making baseball judgments solely on WAR. I don't even look up the stat all that often. But the attitude towards it from some reminds me of old people in the early 90s and the internet.

[Kobs]

I've never bought into the "Mauer's hits count for more as a catcher" thing

 

You've never bought into a nonsensical reframing of an issue that you formulated yourself? Interesting.

[Kobs]

Mauer should, assuming that the Twins do not have great options at both corner outfield positions, 1B, and DH, be playing catcher just enough to be ready to catch every game in a playoff series. The Twins should ramp up his time behind the plate as they approach the end of the season if in contention, as well.

[Beezer07]

Mauer should, assuming that the Twins do not have great options at both corner outfield positions, 1B, and DH, be playing catcher just enough to be ready to catch every game in a playoff series. The Twins should ramp up his time behind the plate as they approach the end of the season if in contention, as well.

 

This is actually not a terrible idea at all. Although it assumes that the Twins can compete for a playoff spot with Mauer catching only, say, 25% of the time. I think part of my concern is that moving Mauer from behind the plate to 1B on a regular basis might "cost" the Twins 3-ish wins per season, which could be the difference between playoffs and not playoffs.

[VandyTwinsFan]

Good debating. Really masterful. I wouldn't mind discussing the possibility of Mauer at 3rd. I imagine 1st was the easiest place to move Joe with Morneau being hurt and Joe not really having experience in other places. 3rd has more nuances than 1st, but one could hope that over an off-season Joe could be an equal to Plouffe defensively and progress from there. I'd like to entertain the idea of platooning plouffe with mauer. Plouffe plays on days against lefties and the occasional righty who doesn't have a sweet slider to make him look stupid (or any other pitch down and away). Plus, having an athletic 6'5" guy standing at third sounds pretty sweet. Certainly more intimidating than our old buddy Carroll. Thoughts?

Also, I realize Sano is on his way. But let's not assume he'll immediately succeed or be here next year for a second.

[drjim]

Two things that probably need to be repeated.

 

Mauer as a 1B is probably an elite defender. That will make him more valuable at tha position.

 

Also, if Mauer becomes a full time 1B he will almost certainly get 10 or so additional games worth of plate appearances. This also doesn't take into account he will have more quality at bats as a 1B as opposed to a C because he won't be as dealing with the fatigue or battering a catcher suffers from.

 

Simply put he will put up better numbers with additional at bats while providing elite defense at his new position. The difference in plate appearances over the balance of his career would also be substantial.

 

It seems a no brainer at this point.

[stringer bell]

Two things that probably need to be repeated.

 

Mauer as a 1B is probably an elite defender. That will make him more valuable at tha position.

 

Also, if Mauer becomes a full time 1B he will almost certainly get 10 or so additional games worth of plate appearances. This also doesn't take into account he will have more quality at bats as a 1B as opposed to a C because he won't be as dealing with the fatigue or battering a catcher suffers from.

 

Simply put he will put up better numbers with additional at bats while providing elite defense at his new position. The difference in plate appearances over the balance of his career would also be substantial.

 

It seems a no brainer at this point.

Especially since Morneau is a free agent at the end of this year, this does seem like a pretty sound decision. It still has to get the official okey-dokey from the player. If Mauer is willing to become a first baseman more than a catcher, it should be a done deal. Of course, there are the nuances. Should Mauer catch occasionally, in an emergency or never or someplace in between?

 

I like the idea of holding the door open to him catching in playoff games or with a season in the balance. The pity of it is that Mauer remains pretty doggone good behind the dish. He certainly has been better this year than in the preceding years and it isn't that long ago that he won a Gold Glove (FWIW).

[Guest USAFChief]

Mauer should, assuming that the Twins do not have great options at both corner outfield positions, 1B, and DH, be playing catcher just enough to be ready to catch every game in a playoff series. The Twins should ramp up his time behind the plate as they approach the end of the season if in contention, as well.

So the proof that Mauer is so much more valuable as a catcher lies in playing him there less?

[Shane Wahl]

Shooting for 2012 numbers in terms of games behind home plate should not be out of the question for next season.

 

Sidenote: Is there some purposeful obstinacy going in here?

[Alex]

So the proof that Mauer is so much more valuable as a catcher lies in playing him there less?

 

You are really mixing the arguments and points here. The more games Mauer is able to play catcher the more valuable he is. There's a balance between what the right number is that will keep him healthy and effective. This really only matters if the Twins are competitive. It's when they are competitive that there is reason to play him at catcher. For now, there's really no point to putting wear and tear on his legs.

[Jim H]

While this debate is sort of fun, the big question is the concussion issue. If it getting hit in the facemask a couple of times a game brings back the concussions or doctors believe that will be the case, Mauer has to be moved. Otherwise, moving Mauer to another position will likely be nuanced. He will gradually play more at (I suppose) 1B/DH depending on health, available quality replacement at C, who the other 1B/DH's may be, just what the lineup needs to be on a certain day, etc.

 

I suppose if Pinto turns into a quality catcher with an above average bat, moving Mauer, takes place faster. If that doesn't happen and Morneau is still around, Mauer will play less there. The same is basically true at DH or RF. Maybe one of the young guys(Sano or others) has a big league bat but not a big league glove. So they play DH a lot and Mauer plays more at catcher.

 

As others have said, it comes down to maximizing Mauer's value, but guys surrounding him figure into this as well. I do think the Front Office will spend a lot of time trying to figure this out during the off season. If all the young guys(Sano, Arica, Buxton, Pinto and Rosario) will have impact bats and BE ABLE TO STAY AT THEIR PRIMARY POSITIONS, well you have one future on what to do with Mauer. If that can't or doesn't happen, well now you probably have to do something else with Mauer.

[Alex]

Interesting segment on FoxN in the pregame about the masks catchers wear and Hermann observed that many of the catchers getting concussions wear the same, light weight mask.

[Major League Ready]

Again, you're arguing how much his hits count. Everyone else is arguing that his value as a hitter is higher (and much, much higher) as a catcher than as a 1B or DH. And again, there isn't any disputing this, as it's based on math. If you don't agree with WAR, or the math behind it, that's fine. But a good-hitting catcher is worth way more to a team than a good-hitting first baseman. Why? because you can find a decent 1B a lot of other places, while most other catchers are complete garbage on offense.

 

Isn't that why it is called a "premium position"? I don't understand the dabe on this one. I don't know how anyone can argue he is not more valuable as a catcher. On the other hand, a couple people made the point that the worst case scenario for this team would be if we lost his production all together and ate that big contract. I like the idea of Joe playing 60-80 games at catcher if the concussion risk is deemed to be reasonable.