Article: Ron Gardenhire talks September roster

[Major League Ready]

It seems like you completely ignored the options. You'd give up more because he's due far less salary. Your intent for Morneau was never dependent on his contributions in August, but rather throughout the playoffs. Therefore, August didn't really matter nor provide value that you cared about, but he's now due $2M less.

 

Whether the Twins were going to cover some of that salary at any time isn't really the point at all because you'd assume the Twins willingness to do that hasn't changed. If the Twins were going to cover $2M on Aug 1, you'd owe Justin $2M and give up a prospect. On Aug 31, if the Twins cover that same $2M, he's now due $0 from the acquiring team... so it seems pretty reasonable that you'd give up a better prospect since you don't have to pay that $2M.

 

I was thinking the same thing. The most important part of the acquisitions teams are making right now is the potential impact of that player in the playoffs. It also does not make sense to me that paying Morneau's salary increases his trade value but that the reduction that occurs as the season rolls on is not important. If your boss tells you that you have no budget or a very small budget for additions, 30 days + playoffs and a couple million less in salary might very well make Morneau more attractive than 60 days + playoffs and two million additional salary.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Look, I disagree with your premise in this scenario, but it doesn't matter. Since Morneau cleared waivers the only team in the situation your describing is the Atlanta Braves and they sure aren't going to trade for Morneau.

 

My points have been:

1) Morneau's value isn't likely to increase.

2) There is no benefit to the Twins tohold onto Morneau.

3) Ryan should be willing to eat as much of the contract as he needs to in order to achieve the best deal he can.

4) A Morneau whose salary is $0 is worth more than Drew Butera whose salary was ~$150k.

 

I'm not going to disagree with you on points 1-3. Truth be told, I don't think anyone disagrees with you there (although the casual fan might disagree with you on number 2). Though to pick a nit, Drew was offered arb this year. His salary was closer to 750k than it is 150k...

 

That said, what I don't think you see is that it is very likely that the return being offered is crap. That's our point. The Twins don't need to dump Morneau for salary relief. They need a decent player for him. If the only thing on the table is "future utility infielder" or org filler, I'd pass. No reason to trade him and cover any salary if that's all that's being offered. There has to be a decent prospect on the table to do it.

[Oxtung]

I'm not going to disagree with you on points 1-3. Truth be told, I don't think anyone disagrees with you there (although the casual fan might disagree with you on number 2). Though to pick a nit, Drew was offered arb this year. His salary was closer to 750k than it is 150k...

 

That said, what I don't think you see is that it is very likely that the return being offered is crap. That's our point. The Twins don't need to dump Morneau for salary relief. They need a decent player for him. If the only thing on the table is "future utility infielder" or org filler, I'd pass. No reason to trade him and cover any salary if that's all that's being offered. There has to be a decent prospect on the table to do it.

 

The Twins held Butera for most of the season therefore they would have paid most of his salary. My $150k was just a guess of what was still owed by the dodgers.

 

There are two reasons that i can see that the return for Morneau would be org filler. First the Twins are asking the other team to pay his salary. I would be very irked if this was true. However, if the Twins are picking up his salary and the return is still org filler than his value is less than drew Butera playing in AAA. Does anyone believe that is actually the case? I certainly don't.

[Thegrin]

The Twins should bring up Parmalee once the AAA playoffs are done. Then we could see if a Parmalee/Colabello platoon at 1B would work. Morneau's plate appearances can afford to be reduced if the Twins don't trade him in the last week of August.

[stringer bell]

For one thing, I'd rather see Parmelee at first or in the outfield. Colabello is pretty brutal at either position.

[golfboy1]

The Twins held Butera for most of the season therefore they would have paid most of his salary. My $150k was just a guess of what was still owed by the dodgers.

 

There are two reasons that i can see that the return for Morneau would be org filler. First the Twins are asking the other team to pay his salary. I would be very irked if this was true. However, if the Twins are picking up his salary and the return is still org filler than his value is less than drew Butera playing in AAA. Does anyone believe that is actually the case? I certainly don't.

 

I believe you are overvaluing Morneau. Nobody claimed him off waivers because they didn't want to take the chance they would get stuck with him.

 

Let's say a team told the Twins they would do a trade if the Twins payed 90% of Morneau's salary. If the Twins said no the Twins are still paying 100% of his salary so it seems likely that nobody is offering anything better than a filler prospect.

 

Texas acquired Rios from Chicago for practically nothing AND the White Sox had to throw in money. Texas had a big need for a RF after Cruz was suspended, Rios is better than Morneau & Texas still got him cheap.

 

There are a lot of players besides Morneau available. Rumors have Dunn, Ibanez, Morales ,Lind & plenty of other players available.

 

On the surface, it seems crazy that the Twins could get more for Butera than Morneau but they are separate issues. I can't believe the Twins got anything worthwhile for Butera but just because the Dodgers are stupid doesn't mean everyone else will be.

 

I still hope they trade Morneau but just moving him for a nobody isn't good business... like some have said...saying no is part of being a good negotiator.

 

We are all working off limited info but I'll give TR the benefit of the doubt & assume he would have traded Morneau if the right situation/player had arisen.

[IdahoPilgrim]

However, if the Twins are picking up his salary and the return is still org filler than his value is less than drew Butera playing in AAA. Does anyone believe that is actually the case? I certainly don't.

 

Your argument seems to be:

 

1) Butera commanded a decent prospect in a trade.

2) Morneau is a better value than Butera, especially if the Twins pay most of his remaining salary.

3) Therefore, Morneau should also return a decent prospect as good or better than the one received for Butera.

 

Problem is, logically, 3 does not automatically follow from 1 & 2.

 

There are other factors not included (which teams we are dealing with and their GMs philosophies, what positions they play, etc) which make any connection between the Butera deal and a possible Morneau trade tenuous at best.

 

I know it's frustrating to believe that Morneau doesn't have the value we like him to have, but that seems to be the case. I wanted to get more money for my mother's home when I sold it last year, but the market is what the market is.

[Oxtung]

I believe you are overvaluing Morneau. Nobody claimed him off waivers because they didn't want to take the chance they would get stuck with him.

 

Let's say a team told the Twins they would do a trade if the Twins payed 90% of Morneau's salary. If the Twins said no the Twins are still paying 100% of his salary so it seems likely that nobody is offering anything better than a filler prospect.

 

Texas acquired Rios from Chicago for practically nothing AND the White Sox had to throw in money. Texas had a big need for a RF after Cruz was suspended, Rios is better than Morneau & Texas still got him cheap.

 

There are a lot of players besides Morneau available. Rumors have Dunn, Ibanez, Morales ,Lind & plenty of other players available.

 

On the surface, it seems crazy that the Twins could get more for Butera than Morneau but they are separate issues. I can't believe the Twins got anything worthwhile for Butera but just because the Dodgers are stupid doesn't mean everyone else will be.

 

I still hope they trade Morneau but just moving him for a nobody isn't good business... like some have said...saying no is part of being a good negotiator.

 

We are all working off limited info but I'll give TR the benefit of the doubt & assume he would have traded Morneau if the right situation/player had arisen.

 

Your argument seems to be:

 

1) Butera commanded a decent prospect in a trade.

2) Morneau is a better value than Butera, especially if the Twins pay most of his remaining salary.

3) Therefore, Morneau should also return a decent prospect as good or better than the one received for Butera.

 

Problem is, logically, 3 does not automatically follow from 1 & 2.

 

There are other factors not included (which teams we are dealing with and their GMs philosophies, what positions they play, etc) which make any connection between the Butera deal and a possible Morneau trade tenuous at best.

 

I know it's frustrating to believe that Morneau doesn't have the value we like him to have, but that seems to be the case. I wanted to get more money for my mother's home when I sold it last year, but the market is what the market is.

 

 

You two seem to be arguing the same point so I'll respond to you both the same.

 

You are absolutely right that they are different players and different situations. That said, Morneau is a major league baseball player, even if he isn't a star anymore, where as Butera was signed for nothing other than AAA roster filler with the outside chance of being an injury replacement. And he cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can not believe, no matter how far Morneau has slipped, that he is worth less Butera. Especially if the Twins are picking up his salary. The logic of my mind says that is impossible.

 

That said, even if they are offering a return similar to Liriano's the deal should still be done. There is no advantage to holding on to Morneau. At least with "prospects" there is a chance they will help us out in future seasons.

 

People came saying the Twins should just say no, why? What advantage does that bring the Twins in this particular case?

[LaBombo]

 

I know it's frustrating to believe that Morneau doesn't have the value we like him to have, but that seems to be the case.

No. What's frustrating is that based on the available information, the Twins are limiting Morneau's trade value by refusing to pay his remaining salary.

[Mike Sixel]

The Twins should bring up Parmalee once the AAA playoffs are done. Then we could see if a Parmalee/Colabello platoon at 1B would work. Morneau's plate appearances can afford to be reduced if the Twins don't trade him in the last week of August.

 

Platoon? This is Gardenhire we are talking about....

[S.]

Platoon? Yeah, that movie has one hell of a superstar cast. Wait, what were we talking about? Did someone say Golden Corral?

[drjim]

Platoon? This is Gardenhire we are talking about....

 

3 bench guys doesn't exactly open up the possibility of a platoon even if Joe Maddon or Connie Mack is the manager.

[jokin]

3 bench guys doesn't exactly open up the possibility of a platoon even if Joe Maddon or Connie Mack is the manager.

 

Of course, Maddon would never get caught in the position of only having 3 bench guys and 3 catchers on a roster in the first place, but that's more on Ryan for the failure to bolster the Rotation. In point of fact, Maddon currently has 7 guys on his roster listed as "Outfielders" and that's not counting the Eighth OF, Ben Zobrist, who has spent about 1/3rd of his time in the OF this year, quite an athletic bunch overall, versatile and leaving room for lots of in-game strategic options. By contrast, after the All Star break during the periods of time when Hicks was in Rochester, for a significant stretch of time until the DL guys got back, Gardy and Ryan felt comfortable listing and "officially" carrying only 2 outfielders on the roster. Thus, the opportunity for continued use of the Twins concept of athleticism and versatility with the magic 3-catcher starting alignment.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I can not believe, no matter how far Morneau has slipped, that he is worth less Butera. Especially if the Twins are picking up his salary. The logic of my mind says that is impossible.

 

 

And yet that's seems to be exactly the case.

[Oxtung]

And yet that's seems to be exactly the case.

 

Of course no where has anyone actually presented any evidence that is the case. On the other hand many sources have mentioned money being the issue....

[drjim]

Of course no where has anyone actually presented any evidence that is the case. On the other hand many sources have mentioned money being the issue....

 

Problem we have is that no one knows what caliber of prospect the "money issues" are preventing the Twins from acquiring. There is no evidence other than speculation based upon an unrelated transaction.

[golfboy1]

You two seem to be arguing the same point so I'll respond to you both the same.

 

You are absolutely right that they are different players and different situations. That said, Morneau is a major league baseball player, even if he isn't a star anymore, where as Butera was signed for nothing other than AAA roster filler with the outside chance of being an injury replacement. And he cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can not believe, no matter how far Morneau has slipped, that he is worth less Butera. Especially if the Twins are picking up his salary. The logic of my mind says that is impossible.

 

That said, even if they are offering a return similar to Liriano's the deal should still be done. There is no advantage to holding on to Morneau. At least with "prospects" there is a chance they will help us out in future seasons.

 

People came saying the Twins should just say no, why? What advantage does that bring the Twins in this particular case?

 

The problem is we don't know who or what is being offered so we are left to speculate & make our own guesses.

 

If they could get a return similar to Liriano I hope they would do it. It seems like they can't even get that much based on what is known.

 

#1. Morneau cleared waivers so nobody thought he was worth his salary or was even worried another team might grab him. This seems to indicate he doesn't have great value.

 

#2. Texas got Rios PLUS money for a package that is less than Liriano(IMHO)

 

#3. The Cubs let DeJesus go for nothing just to get rid of his salary & he isn't that bad of a player. Morneau's stats are slightly better but Dejesus is a very good OF & would give a team a PR while Morneau's value is all bat.

 

My "guess" is that very few teams are interested in Morneau...& they want the Twins to pay his salary & send back a very marginal prospect. I understand why Ryan would say no to that.

 

I haven't read every post here but has anyone named who even wants Morneau? I can see Baltimore having some interest but I also read that they didn't actually want Morneau. If they aren't interested..who else is?

[jokin]

The problem is we don't know who or what is being offered so we are left to speculate & make our own guesses.

 

If they could get a return similar to Liriano I hope they would do it. It seems like they can't even get that much based on what is known.

 

#1. Morneau cleared waivers so nobody thought he was worth his salary or was even worried another team might grab him. This seems to indicate he doesn't have great value.

 

#2. Texas got Rios PLUS money for a package that is less than Liriano(IMHO)

 

#3. The Cubs let DeJesus go for nothing just to get rid of his salary & he isn't that bad of a player. Morneau's stats are slightly better but Dejesus is a very good OF & would give a team a PR while Morneau's value is all bat.

 

My "guess" is that very few teams are interested in Morneau...& they want the Twins to pay his salary & send back a very marginal prospect. I understand why Ryan would say no to that.

 

I haven't read every post here but has anyone named who even wants Morneau? I can see Baltimore having some interest but I also read that they didn't actually want Morneau. If they aren't interested..who else is?

 

Take it FWIW, Pittsburgh and the Yankees, were also in the rumor mill. Not holding my breath, but, Morneau's career slash at Yankee stadium might still move the Yankees to pull the trigger:

 

.296/.367/.558/.922

[Oxtung]

Take it FWIW, Pittsburgh and the Yankees, were also in the rumor mill. Not holding my breath, but, Morneau's career slash at Yankee stadium might still move the Yankees to pull the trigger:

 

.296/.367/.558/.922

 

The Yanks signed Mark Reynolds and while he isn't great I have a hard time imagining them signing another corner infielder. I would guess that door is closed at this point.

[LaBombo]

#1. Morneau cleared waivers so nobody thought he was worth his salary or was even worried another team might grab him. This seems to indicate he doesn't have great value.

Nobody is arguing that he has great value. Several people have argued that he may have some trade value if the Twins pay his remaining salary. We're hearing they won't.

#2. Texas got Rios PLUS money for a package that is less than Liriano(IMHO)

Alex Rios is owed $12.5 million next year and a $1 million buyout in 2015. The Sox 'spent' a million they owed Rios anyway, cleared 13.5 million in future salary space, and acquired a shortstop prospect who may well be as good as Escobar, but is two years younger.

#3. The Cubs let DeJesus go for nothing just to get rid of his salary & he isn't that bad of a player. Morneau's stats are slightly better but Dejesus is a very good OF & would give a team a PR while Morneau's value is all bat.

The Cubs likely saved $2.5 million in salary and buyouts and will get a ptbnl who may very well turn out to be much more than "nothing" (as did Sulbaran) for a guy you acknowledge is about as good as Morneau. By the way, since NL teams need a pinch hitter nearly every game, Morneau's all bat value is that much more valuable there.

 

And they did it despite everyone in MLB knowing that they needed to get rid of DDJ, even by dfa'ing if necessary, to clear space for Lake, Bogusevic, and Jackson when he's healthy. DeJesus is at the very most a 4th OF on a contender, while Morneau could start 4 games a week if he platooned at one rumored destination, Pittsburgh.

 

My "guess" is that very few teams are interested in Morneau...& they want the Twins to pay his salary & send back a very marginal prospect. I understand why Ryan would say no to that.

Again, why should it matter to Ryan that teams want him to use the money he budgeted to pay Morneau to... pay Morneau? Because of the hit the franchise's bottom line will take when walk-up ticket sales plummet for 30 days after Morneau leaves?

 

The money is gone. There is no money. And it's extremely likely that soon, in either a few days or a few weeks, there will be no Morneau. All that remains to be seen is whether 30 days of Morneau farewell tour is worth trading for a prospect who may or may not turn out to be a sleeper prospect like Sulbaran.

 

Everyone gets that not seriously pursuing a 'cost-free Justin for some stripe of prospect' trade won't significantly diminish the future of the franchise. But to me, and maybe to others, it looks like the thought process that led them to that decision seems likely to hurt the Twins in the future.

[jay]

Again, why should it matter to Ryan that teams want him to use the money he budgeted to pay Morneau to... pay Morneau? Because of the hit the franchise's bottom line will take when walk-up ticket sales plummet for 30 days after Morneau leaves?

 

This may very well be an understated concern. The vast majority of fans don't get to the levels of engagement that we do here. The casual fan would very well be displeased that the big Canadian got dumped for some low-level scrub.

 

Of course no where has anyone actually presented any evidence that is the case. On the other hand many sources have mentioned money being the issue....

 

This seems to be a recurring counterpoint lately across multiple threads. "But they used the word money somewhere in that article, so that absolutely has to mean TR won't entertain the idea of covering Morneau's salary because he's so cheap!" These insights are warping context and making assumptions just as much as anyone else.

[Mike Sixel]

This may very well be an understated concern. The vast majority of fans don't get to the levels of engagement that we do here. The casual fan would very well be displeased that the big Canadian got dumped for some low-level scrub.

 

 

 

This seems to be a recurring counterpoint lately across multiple threads. "But they used the word money somewhere in that article, so that absolutely has to mean TR won't entertain the idea of covering Morneau's salary because he's so cheap!" These insights are warping context and making assumptions just as much as anyone else.

 

Gardy explicitly stated it was about money and stuff, not sure how that is randomly mentioned in an article. Numerous national writers have mentioned that money is the hold up. Not sure what more you want?

[jay]

Gardy explicitly stated it was about money and stuff, not sure how that is randomly mentioned in an article. Numerous national writers have mentioned that money is the hold up. Not sure what more you want?

 

Exactly my point. Nowhere do they say that TR won't do it, just that it's a "hold up". Of course it's a hold up... not one single team wanted him at full price. Negotiating over money becomes a requirement, not an immediate indictment on TR.

[Mike Sixel]

You expect Ryan to come out and say it? We can only go on the information we have available, information that includes the manager saying money is part of the issue.

[jay]

There's just as many articles out there about a poor prospect return for Justin as well... but those seem to get conveniently ignored by some because other articles have the word "money" in there somewhere.

[jay]

You expect Ryan to come out and say it? We can only go on the information we have available, information that includes the manager saying money is part of the issue.

 

So it's a better sourced argument to clearly make assumptions of things that aren't said? Meanwhile, it has been just as (or more) clearly said that the prospect return is poor.

 

My point is that both sides are using minimal information and making assumptions... either could be right, but let's not try to claim one side is "better sourced" as some have been.

[ThePuck]

You expect Ryan to come out and say it? We can only go on the information we have available, information that includes the manager saying money is part of the issue.

 

Even if he did come out and say it verbatim, it wouldn't matter...

 

example? When he said he'd do everything possible to significantly improve this year's rotation.

[jay]

Even if he did come out and say it verbatim, it wouldn't matter...

 

example? When he said he'd do everything possible to significantly improve this year's rotation.

 

Painfully true validation that these sources we trump up as the god-given truth are generally quite short of that.

[ThePuck]

Painfully true validation that these sources we trump up as the god-given truth are generally quite short of that.

 

I'm not smart enough to understand that post...wanna dumb it down a bit maybe with less sarcasm? Are you saying Gardy, as the manager of the team, is quite short of Ryan saying it?

[jay]

I'm not smart enough to understand that post...wanna dumb it down a bit maybe with less sarcasm? Are you saying Gardy, as the manager of the team, is quite short of Ryan saying it?

 

Not any sarcasm really. Many of us commonly point to an article or quote as clear proof of something when, in reality, it's quite probably not.