Article: Joe Benson claimed off waivers by Rangers

[Nick Nelson]

I'd say anyone with a pulse has "a path to starting in the major leagues" on a team coming off 190+ losses over the past two seasons. Besides which, letting players with potential leave your organization unnecessarily is never a good idea.

I've never been sold on his "potential" considering his total lack of strike zone judgment, and with his epic struggles above Double-A -- along with the microfracture knee surgery which few players successfully come back from -- there's less reason than ever to think he'll be an MLB asset. If it was going to happen, it would need to be in an organization that wasn't already loaded with quality outfield prospects.

[TheLeviathan]

I think it's odd how much of a pass guys like Worley get for injuries and yet Benson, with some serious injuries, doesn't get any kind of pass at all. He may never recover from those, but part of his struggles the last few years could certainly be injury related.

 

I just don't get why, in the position this club is currently in, why you risk dropping him in place of some other talent that would've clearly passed through. (Looking at you Butera)

[twinsnorth49]

I think it's odd how much of a pass guys like Worley get for injuries and yet Benson, with some serious injuries, doesn't get any kind of pass at all. He may never recover from those, but part of his struggles the last few years could certainly be injury related.

 

 

 

I just don't get why, in the position this club is currently in, why you risk dropping him in place of some other talent that would've clearly passed through. (Looking at you Butera)

 

This is pretty much the heart if it and I think Chief stated something similar earlier, have your opinions on Benson all you like but it still makes little sense for a player like Benson to be exposed considering some of the dreck on this 40 man.

[Shane Wahl]

This is pretty much the heart if it and I think Chief stated something similar earlier, have your opinions on Benson all you like but it still makes little sense for a player like Benson to be exposed considering some of the dreck on this 40 man.

 

I know. I am baffled by the response here. As in completely befuddled. Uber-perplexed. I could go on and on.

[jokin]

I think it's odd how much of a pass guys like Worley get for injuries and yet Benson, with some serious injuries, doesn't get any kind of pass at all. He may never recover from those, but part of his struggles the last few years could certainly be injury related.

 

I just don't get why, in the position this club is currently in, why you risk dropping him in place of some other talent that would've clearly passed through. (Looking at you Butera)

 

I think putting "talent" in quotes would be appropriate punctuation at this point. I say this as a fellow puzzled observer of a team that apparently has been going public with the notion that it's an intriguiing notion and worth gambling the #4 overall pick in the draft next month on a HS catcher that shows potential "talent" to be, in the worst-case scenario, a "Drew Butera-floor" prospect.

[cmathewson]

I've never been sold on his "potential" considering his total lack of strike zone judgment, and with his epic struggles above Double-A -- along with the microfracture knee surgery which few players successfully come back from -- there's less reason than ever to think he'll be an MLB asset. If it was going to happen, it would need to be in an organization that wasn't already loaded with quality outfield prospects.

 

This. He was a bad draft pick. Should have played football. Worked his tail off to learn to hit this well, which is not good enough for major league pitching. He's Mastroianni with more power and less strike zone judgement. These guys are floating around the waver wire all the time. And his injuries are starting to pile up, making him worse prospects than Clete Thomas or Antoan Richardson.

[Guest USAFChief]

I've never been sold on his "potential" considering his total lack of strike zone judgment, and with his epic struggles above Double-A -- along with the microfracture knee surgery which few players successfully come back from -- there's less reason than ever to think he'll be an MLB asset. If it was going to happen, it would need to be in an organization that wasn't already loaded with quality outfield prospects.

 

His "total lack of strike zone judgement?" C'mon Nick, you're better than this.

 

OBP and strike zone judgement has been a strength of his throughout his minor league career. He has had major issues making contact, sure. Major issues. But he has always managed to walk a decent amount, and his contact issues didn't stem from swinging at a lot of pitches out of the zone.

 

Now, it may well be that his injuries have piled up to the point where he's never going to fully recover. It may be he's topped out, he's gone as far as his talent will allow. He may indeed never end up being even a good 4th outfielder in the majors. All that is possible, maybe even probable.

 

But we're talking about a guy who was a high draft pick, is very gifted athletically, has displayed both power and OB skills, and was the Twins minor league player of the year not that long ago. By all accounts he's a good defensive outfielder. He put up an .883 OPS in AA as recently as 2011--how many guys do that? He didn't need to be exposed to other teams until the coming offseason.

 

Whether or not this organization is "loaded with OF prospects," it's just not good business to lose guys like that when you don't have to. And the Twins most certainly did not have to.

[cmathewson]

His "total lack of strike zone judgement?" C'mon Nick, you're better than this.

 

OBP and strike zone judgement has been a strength of his throughout his minor league career. He has had major issues making contact, sure. Major issues. But he has always managed to walk a decent amount, and his contact issues didn't stem from swinging at a lot of pitches out of the zone.

 

Now, it may well be that his injuries have piled up to the point where he's never going to fully recover. It may be he's topped out, he's gone as far as his talent will allow. He may indeed never end up being even a good 4th outfielder in the majors. All that is possible, maybe even probable.

 

But we're talking about a guy who was a high draft pick, is very gifted athletically, has displayed both power and OB skills, and was the Twins minor league player of the year not that long ago. By all accounts he's a good defensive outfielder. He put up an .883 OPS in AA as recently as 2011--how many guys do that? He didn't need to be exposed to other teams until the coming offseason.

 

Whether or not this organization is "loaded with OF prospects," it's just not good business to lose guys like that when you don't have to. And the Twins most certainly did not have to.

 

This all seems right. Except that he was in open defiance against the organization, as witnessed by our fellow poster Thrylos as recently as last week. You can't have guys on the team who seem utterly incapable of handling their current adversity and drag the other guys down in the process. Maybe you're a bit more tolerant of a guy who has a chance to start. But not for a fourth outfielder.

[Nick Nelson]

I think it's odd how much of a pass guys like Worley get for injuries and yet Benson, with some serious injuries, doesn't get any kind of pass at all. He may never recover from those, but part of his struggles the last few years could certainly be injury related.

That very well may be true, but it's not necessarily something that goes away, especially within the time frame that the Twins need to make a decision on him. Seriously, take a look at the history of guys who have had microfracture knee surgery, it's not pretty. Grady Sizemore is a high-profile example.

 

OBP and strike zone judgement has been a strength of his throughout his minor league career. He has had major issues making contact, sure. Major issues. But he has always managed to walk a decent amount, and his contact issues didn't stem from swinging at a lot of pitches out of the zone.

You seem fixated on the player he was prior to 2012. There's no evidence that player still exists. Benson has shown no ability to hit above Triple-A, and has only continued to deteriorate in Rochester. He was striking out in one out of every three trips to the dish. Brutal.

 

The Twins had to be at the point where they were considering sending him down to New Britain, again. At that point, knowing he's out of options the next spring, is it really that big a deal to just cut him loose and wish him the best?

 

I get that nobody likes Butera, but at some point we all just need to accept that the people running the team place a value on his presence, and it just is what it is. I am so bored with every single thread of discussion turning into a Butera bash fest. The guy can't even be stashed away in the minors without constantly becoming the focus of blame for every single one of the organization's ills.

[jokin]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get that nobody likes Butera, but at some point we all just need to accept that the people running the team place a value on his presence, and it just is what it is. I am so bored with every single thread of discussion turning into a Butera bash fest. The guy can't even be stashed away in the minors without constantly becoming the focus of blame for every single one of the organization's ills.

 

Please show where every single one of the organization's ills has been blamed on Butera. That huff-and-puff hyperbolic-strawman just won't fly. Butera isn't the blame for anything on-field- except for his own talent limitations as a player. His presence on the Twins roster is merely but one more symptom of the overall sclerotic Twins philosophy that has left them openly mocking statistically significant demonstrable baseball sabre-outcomes- seemingly oblivious to their own actual dreadful outcomes by following their own approach. And it resultantly has left the club mired down with the Astros and Royals of the baseball world, scrambling with incremental and inexpensive stabs at becoming a power team, but in reality, riding on a wave of "hope" that the six-year plan for its decent prospects will somehow come to fruition before the decade is out- "hope"fully while there still are some willing ticket buyers left.

 

The Twins are seemingly light-years behind the current cutting-edge thinkers, leaders, movers and shakers in the League- and they can no longer go back in time and credibly fall back on the tired old excuses about payroll, mid-sized media market revenues and sub-standard stadium. The latest scoop from John claiming that the Twins are interested in a HS-Drew Butera-floor type for the extraordinarily valuable #4 pick is just the latest example of their calcified hard-headedness in the face of new realities. The jig is up- time for fresh faces and a 21st Century approach, already.

[big dog]

Benson has been hurt the last few years which certainly impacted his numbers. Also with the complete lack of CF in the high minors' date=' all he'd have to do is put together a few good weeks and they'd have an excuse to send Hicks down. So I really don't think he was as far away from the majors as some are saying.[/quote']

 

Agreed, but that's been the story for a while now. He's had plenty of chances, including during spring training this year. Sorry to lose him, would rather have given up Butera, but I just don't think it's going to matter.

[Guest USAFChief]

 

 

You seem fixated on the player he was prior to 2012. .

I think I'm fixated on the player he might still be, even though I agree there's only a very small chance of it, and the fact it wasn't necessary to lose that small chance.

 

If I only had room in my wallet for the lottery ticket I bought or a scrap of blank paper, I'd keep the lottery ticket.

 

BTW, I don't think I've mentioned Butera anywhere in this thread.

[IdahoPilgrim]

All that glitters is not gold.

 

'Nuf said.

[Oldgoat_MN]

I have been watching Benson for a few years and expected good things from him. I wish him the best.

 

However, he was blocked by himself. He had the inside track to be on the Twins MLB roster for 2013. He would be sharing starting time with Mastro in CF. This is what we all thought going into ST.

 

There is no one to blame. He wasn't going to get a chance after his poor play in Spring Training and in AAA Rochester. He is better off elsewhere.

 

Also, I noticed the Rangers assigned him to a AA team.

[Mike Sixel]

I do agree, he's better off moving on. He really, really, seems to need some kind of mental practice like yoga or buddhism or something that helps him remember that not every failure is crippling. I hope he finds it.

 

I don't think they treated him unfairly at all. I do think I'd rather they DFAd Hermsen or someone else, but again, I think worrying about men 30-40, on this roster, is a lot of teeth gnashing over probably not much loss....

[Shane Wahl]

I am not sure why I am back here reading this. Yes, we'll see how Benson does indeed. And yes he was treated unfairly last year. Instead of allowing him to struggle through his problems at AAA they demoted him to AAA where he had already proved himself and he was then injured at AA. Then you have a manager at AAA who refuses to bat prospects at the top of the order in Rochester, preferring filler for "ticket sales."

 

Also, aren't top 10-12 prospects allowed to have one bad less-than-full season (which is all you can say for 2012-2013 in Benson's case)?

 

Letting CF talent walk away for nothing when there are other options on the 40-man roster with little value whatsoever is bad decision-making.

 

Let me give you a hypothetical. Say Benson would have improved some, displaying good power but still not returning to his 2011 numbers. But it is a sign of improvement. Now consider the Twins seeking to trade Justin Morneau at the deadline to some team for that team's 10th prospect. Say the other team would prefer to give their 15th prospect, but the Twins don't like that idea. Wouldn't a Joe Benson be ideal for that kind of package deal as an add-in? Can you say the same for Wilkin Ramirez, Drew Butera, etc.?

[Nick Nelson]

Let me give you a hypothetical. Say Benson would have improved some, displaying good power but still not returning to his 2011 numbers. But it is a sign of improvement. Now consider the Twins seeking to trade Justin Morneau at the deadline to some team for that team's 10th prospect. Say the other team would prefer to give their 15th prospect, but the Twins don't like that idea. Wouldn't a Joe Benson be ideal for that kind of package deal as an add-in? Can you say the same for Wilkin Ramirez, Drew Butera, etc.?

Considering that 20 teams just passed on the opportunity to add Benson for free, I doubt many would find him an appealing trade chip. How much was he really going to improve his numbers in two months, especially considering that he's demonstrated no ability whatsoever to hit high-level pitching? Again, for all this talk but his "talent" Benson has hit .199 with a 98/24 K/BB ratio between Triple-A and the majors, and he's about to be 26 and out of options in an organization with a loaded OF pipeline. He wouldn't have been my first choice to jettison but I'm truly baffled by all the fuss this is raising.

 

FWIW, Jim Mandelaro, who covers the Red Wings for the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, is fully on board with the decision.

[twinsnorth49]

He wouldn't have been my first choice to jettison but I'm truly baffled by all the fuss this is raising.

 

This right here, why was he the first choice for Ryan? Even at 26 and out of options he didn't have to be, nor probably should have been their first choice.

 

That's the baffling part and I'm not even much of a Benson fan.

[3up3down]

you guys should really watch more games, benson had some of the worst at bats in run producing situations that i have ever seen & he is supposed to be a 5 tool player...then he would carry it over to his defense, i watched him drop balls in his glove , jog to balls in the gap that he probably could have made...i am amazed the mgr put up with it as long as he did...benson may go on to be a big leaguer but rochester & the twins are better off without him..if he is still the same with the rangers i predict he will be designated in 2-3 weeks.

[gunnarthor]

This right here, why was he the first choice for Ryan? Even at 26 and out of options he didn't have to be, nor probably should have been their first choice.

 

Ryan has more information about this than any of it. When it comes to most baseball personal decisions I think, "I'd like to do X." But if the team does "Y" and I can see, with the limited information I have access to, why it makes sense, I'm not likely to say more than, 'oh well.'

 

For example, someone with limited information might hope that the Twins would draft a college pitcher at #2 last year over some prep HS bat. Twins had more information than all of us and chose the HS bat. But, they had information we didn't and it made some sense so .... 'oh well.' Had they drafted Joey Gallo #2 overall and saved 4m dollars, well, that wouldn't have made any sense.

[ashbury]

you guys should really watch more games

 

I'm told that the reply tool edits out if I say the word "****". It should also be tuned to edit out this phrase.

 

/ edit - if you see Kay, tell her it looks like my information was correct

[LaBombo]

I get that nobody likes Butera, but at some point we all just need to accept that the people running the team place a value on his presence, and it just is what it is. I am so bored with every single thread of discussion turning into a Butera bash fest. The guy can't even be stashed away in the minors without constantly becoming the focus of blame for every single one of the organization's ills.

Bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? Butera is extremely relevant to this thread, since he represents two important things.

 

The first is that he's a disposable and easily replaced player who could have been cut from the 40 instead of Benson without much concern.

 

The second is that he's a poster child for an ongoing and often unsuccessful struggle by the organization to differentiate between players with value or potential, however small, and fungible assets like backup catchers who bat .167/.210/.239.

 

Gleeman may not represent any sort of gold standard to you and many others, but he's hardly an obstinate crackpot who routinely or randomly beats the anti-Butera drum. Yet Butera was at the top of Gleeman's list of a handful of disposable filler players who would have made more sense to drop than Benson, even without the Twins' current dearth of healthy center fielders.

 

And as for your feelings toward the supposed constant overuse of Butera as a prime example of organizational deadwood, it looks like you've got a good handle on how other people feel about the oft-played universal trump card that our opinions are wrong or meaningless because we're not Terry Ryan or a doctor.

[jokin]

Bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? Butera is extremely relevant to this thread, since he represents two important things.

 

And as for your feelings toward the supposed constant overuse of Butera as a prime example of organizational deadwood, it looks like you've got a good handle on how other people feel about the oft-played universal trump card that our opinions are wrong or meaningless because we're not Terry Ryan or a doctor.

 

 

Extraordinarily well-stated.

 

But why use cogent examples and factually-based analysis when, especially since you're not a doctor or baseball GM,.......

bombastic hyperbole and reductio ad absurdum in place of logical points suffices for such on TD?

[LaBombo]

Extraordinarily well-stated.

 

But why use cogent examples and factually-based analysis when, especially since you're not a doctor or baseball GM,.......

bombastic hyperbole and reductio ad absurdum in place of logical points suffices for such on TD?

Thanks, but my post probably won't change any minds, so it looks like my next-best option is medical school. Do they let you do that on the internet? If I really hurry, maybe my opinions (regarding the medical staff, at least) may return to relevance by the time the Twins do. 2018 seems optimistic for both.

[jokin]

Thanks, but my post probably won't change any minds, so it looks like my next-best option is medical school. Do they let you do that on the internet? If I really hurry, maybe my opinions (regarding the medical staff, at least) may return to relevance by the time the Twins do. 2018 seems optimistic for both.

 

Dang it. The Twins apologists have already "convinced" me to realistically change my time-frame expectations of competitiveness to 2018. Time for more expectation-back-re-calibration you say?

[diehardtwinsfan]

Thanks, but my post probably won't change any minds, so it looks like my next-best option is medical school. Do they let you do that on the internet? If I really hurry, maybe my opinions (regarding the medical staff, at least) may return to relevance by the time the Twins do. 2018 seems optimistic for both.

 

I think this post also puts you in as the lead candidate for the next opening on the Twin's medical staff.

[Nick Nelson]

The first is that he's a disposable and easily replaced player who could have been cut from the 40 instead of Benson without much concern.

 

The second is that he's a poster child for an ongoing and often unsuccessful struggle by the organization to differentiate between players with value or potential, however small, and fungible assets like backup catchers who bat .167/.210/.239.

As opposed to center fielders who hit .187/.261/.297... in Triple-A.

 

I understand that we all think Butera is disposable, fungible and easily replaced. You're misinterpreting if you think I'm disagreeing with that standpoint or defending the guy.

 

The Twins, clearly, do not feel the same way. As they might not have one single quality defensive catcher in the entire organization outside of Mauer, they feel it's important to dedicate one of their 40 roster spots to keeping Butera around. From what I've heard, it seems likely he would be claimed fairly quickly if he went on waivers so there's a good chance they are not alone in valuing him to some extent.

 

I may not agree but I've come to accept it. I wish others would do the same. Anti-Butera opinions are not wrong or meaningless, they just don't need to be regurgitated ad nauseum every single time the Twins make a 40-man roster decision. Especially when the guy who was dropped had far less chance of making any kind of impact for the big-league club.

[jokin]

As opposed to center fielders who hit .187/.261/.297... in Triple-A.

 

I understand that we all think Butera is disposable, fungible and easily replaced. You're misinterpreting if you think I'm disagreeing with that standpoint or defending the guy.

 

The Twins, clearly, do not feel the same way. As they might not have one single quality defensive catcher in the entire organization outside of Mauer, they feel it's important to dedicate one of their 40 roster spots to keeping Butera around. From what I've heard, it seems likely he would be claimed fairly quickly if he went on waivers so there's a good chance they are not alone in valuing him to some extent.

 

I may not agree but I've come to accept it. I wish others would do the same. Anti-Butera opinions are not wrong or meaningless, they just don't need to be regurgitated ad nauseum every single time the Twins make a 40-man roster decision. Especially when the guy who was dropped had far less chance of making any kind of impact for the big-league club.

 

At least you backed off of the previous bombast that characterized and claimed every critic of Butera was actually blaming him for all of the Twins woes. This would have made a better substitute first post in response to the topic.

[LaBombo]

Dang it. The Twins apologist have already "convinced" me to realistically change my time-frame expectations of competitiveness to 2018. Time for more expectation-back-re-calibration you say?

So hard to keep track of that moving target. For what it's worth, if there were some sort of actual link between the Twins' timetable to relevance and my quest for a doctorate, well, it would be bad news based on my initial efforts...

 

Tried some practice MCAT questions, but after some disappointing results my mind wandered a bit and I ended up clicking on an infomercial banner about deer antler spray.

 

All is not lost, however. Turns out that attractive women will totally dig you if you spray it on them, or yourself, or something. So all I need is the deer antler stuff and an interview with a female Twins HR person, and a front office job will be mine. And with it, TD opinion relevance will be mine at last!

 

Will update after some trial runs with magical product.

[launchingthrees]

 

I may not agree but I've come to accept it. I wish others would do the same. Anti-Butera opinions are not wrong or meaningless, they just don't need to be regurgitated ad nauseum every single time the Twins make a 40-man roster decision. Especially when the guy who was dropped had far less chance of making any kind of impact for the big-league club.

 

Butera is historically awful, and has an upside of replacement level player. Using the word impact in the same sentence as Drew Butera is a travesty. I'd prefer the Twins are mocked for keeping Butera on the 40 man in every single post on every single forum.