Walters

[drjim]

Don't ruin a perfectly good point by mentioning Slama.

[Badsmerf]

don't ruin a perfectly good point by mentioning slama.

free slama!!!!

 

FrEe SlAmA

 

Take that stupid all-cap filter. Don't like reading all-caps? Try reading alternating caps!

[jay]

Here is the problem. Gibson needs innings in the MLB to adjust. These two getting 4 starts, are 4 starts they are taking away from Gibson's development. I believe it is a poor choice by management to do this since it is unlikely Gibson will be pitching an entire season anyway.

 

That's a fair point. I agree that Gibby will probably need some time to adjust, but I don't personally see a few weeks as a career changer for him or our current season. I know a lot of folks hate the money angle, but when you have a few guys that aren't completely underdeserving of a chance and we're talking about the possibility of a few millions of dollars down the road... it makes the argument to call him up that much harder.

 

With you on Slama though, brother. Might be too late.

[Mike Sixel]

Ya, with another 20MM coming off the books this year, and $25MM more in revenue, worrying about super 2 is really key to the success of this team in the next 4 years.....sorry, it just isn't relevant. It's not.

[jay]

Ya, with another 20MM coming off the books this year, and $25MM more in revenue, worrying about super 2 is really key to the success of this team in the next 4 years.....sorry, it just isn't relevant. It's not.

 

I knew you'd jump on that one! No one saying it's the key to success, but we want a long-term contender. Best way to do that is to manage your roster in a smart, economic fashion... even when that means you have to wait a whole, painful, non-season changing 3 weeks to see a prospect that hasn't proven anything.

[chopper0080]

In my opinion, managing and developing players is all about agthering info. What moves can you make to gather the most information possible, and how can you use that information to give the player the best opportunity to succeed.

 

Again, IMO, the Twins should know what they have in PJ Walters which is a fringe major league/AAA pitcher who can be successful in spurts but has not demonstrated the ability to do so over an extended period of time. Same arguement could be made for Deduno though I feel he has more potential because of his ability to gets swings and misses. However, the Twins have no idea what Gibson can do at the major league level. What information are you gathering by bringing up BOTH Walters and Deduno rather than Gibson? The answer is very little.

 

If you need an example of why it is important to bring up Gibson as quickly as possible, see Liam Hendriks. Hendriks has looked great against minor league talent but has really struggled at the major league level. While that is unfortuante, at least the Twins have gathered that information and will not count on Hendriks contributing at the major league level until he has worked some things out. This exemplifies why it is important to get Gibson ASAP. You have to know what you can count on heading into next season.

[ThePuck]

I knew you'd jump on that one! No one saying it's the key to success, but we want a long-term contender. Best way to do that is to manage your roster in a smart, economic fashion...

 

Especially important when you keep lowering your payroll...

[IdahoPilgrim]

Gibson is not a Major League player so I don't believe he is included in the playrs union as of yet. If he were, there certainly would be grounds to file a grevience. I don't think there has been a team in such dire need of a starting pitcher that continues to reject the most obvious and rational candidate to this extreme.

 

I don't know if he is covered either, but I seriously doubt he would have a grievance either way. The only question is - are the Twins moves permitted within the terms of the CBA and the Rules of baseball. If the answer is yes then, whatever the motivation and regardless if it is the smartest move or not, there is nothing that is actionable.

[Nick Nelson]

Walters has a great curve and has had some nice moments but he doesn't have a major-league fastball. Excruciatingly tough to succeed with that going against you. I'm sure the appeal for the Twins is that he's pitched into the seventh six times in his past seven starts.

 

Really does look like we're going to have to wait for the Super 2 deadline to pass to see Gibson. Oh well.

[John Bonnes]

OK, I'll be the contrary one.

 

I don't believe this has much to do with Gibson's Super-2 status. It might be one aspect on that side of the equation, but it's a small thing. The big things, frankly, are that he hasn't been able to put two solid starts in a row and that they feel they can better control his innings limit (and thus his health) by keeping him in AAA.

 

For those that feel this is purely financial, I'll ask the obvious question (which Terry Ryan himself has asked): if that's so important for Gibson, which isn't is important for Hicks and Arcia?

- Hicks and Arcia are both much younger than Gibson

- Both are perceived to be as valuable in the future as Gibson (and probably with less risk)

- In both cases their promotion effects when they turn into free agents, which is a much bigger deal than when a player reaches Super-2.

 

So, if this is such a driving force for the organization, why are they sticking it to Gibson and not Hicks and Arcia?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think there's a few reasons. They are all fairly simple, regardless of whether or not people like them.

 

1) He hasn't flat out dominated and given his talent can still improve in AAA. I get that Gibson has performed similarly, but he also has more room to grow.

2) Walters is out of options and while they've performed similarly, no "decision" needs to be made on Gibson this year.

3) Innings limit.

4) Money.

5) Draft order.

 

I'd guess it's a bit of all of them personally. I highly doubt that just one reason is the reason here.

[Physics Guy]

I hate to link to something Souhan wrote, but for the most part he is just relaying info rather than posting opinion.

 

Ryan says Gibson close, but not quite ready | StarTribune.com

 

I know many of you don't believe what he says, but he is pretty clearly saying it has nothing to do with Super 2 status. I find it rather humorous that many people were very critical of the Twins for starting Hicks' clock early and now many are complaining that we are doing the opposite with Gibson. Ryan really can't win either way. I guess that's why he is paid the big bucks.

[Oxtung]

Chalk me up to agreeing with John. The money excuse doesn't seem likely to me given Hicks and Arcia.

[Mike Sixel]

I said something to the effect of "if youre team generally acts a certain way, is it unreasonable for fans to think that's what is happening"......I never said it was actually about that.

 

Oh, and explain to me this......how does keeping him in AAA help him develop more than having him here? How many good starts in a row does he need before he comes up? What the measure? Parmalee and Hendriks dominated AAA, how'd that turn out?

 

And we think Deduno and Hernandez and Walters are ready? Why does Gibson have to be a finished product before he comes up, if neither Hicks or Arcia had to be finished products? I mean, if we are going to search for cross-player consistency, why the difference?

 

I have no idea what Ryan is thinking, clearly. I can only go by his general behavior. I think Hicks is mostly up because he had no other options, none. I think Gibson is not up because he has other options, so he can keep him down for whatever reason.

[spideyo]

I think if they thought Gibson would guarantee wins, he'd be up here yesterday. But he hasn't been consistent, and we have no idea how he'll react to the pressures at the MLB level. It simply isn't worth it.

 

Heck, if Deduno totally sucks tonight, we could just send him right back to make room for Walters.

[jokin]

Again I'm not sure Porcello is a good example to prove your point. And Gausman and Bundy have always been more highly regarded so the comparison isn't great.

 

That aside, this is disgusting. I didn't have high expectations for the season but doing something to potentially save a couple mil down the line is beyond words.

 

You're right. Gibson was actually far more ready to pitch in the majors coming out of the draft than Porcello (some clubs would have had Gibson signed and playing in 2009 and starting in the majors in 2010) and less ready than the other two elite pitchers. But the point remains the same, when your first round pick is handled this poorly

 

(from the delay in his signing, to the delay in his TJ surgery, to the delay in his promotion, blind to the facts that he's now more than a year and a half beyond TJ and is likely a better SP, right now, than almost anyone on the current staff)

 

it really is disgusting.

[launchingthrees]

90+ losses & firing of Gardy are on the horizons if this is true!!!!

 

Both of these are likely to happen regardless of this decision.

[jokin]

I said something to the effect of "if youre team generally acts a certain way, is it unreasonable for fans to think that's what is happening"......I never said it was actually about that.

 

Oh, and explain to me this......how does keeping him in AAA help him develop more than having him here? How many good starts in a row does he need before he comes up? What the measure? Parmalee and Hendriks dominated AAA, how'd that turn out?

 

And we think Deduno and Hernandez and Walters are ready? Why does Gibson have to be a finished product before he comes up, if neither Hicks or Arcia had to be finished products? I mean, if we are going to search for cross-player consistency, why the difference?

 

I have no idea what Ryan is thinking, clearly. I can only go by his general behavior. I think Hicks is mostly up because he had no other options, none. I think Gibson is not up because he has other options, so he can keep him down for whatever reason.

 

"Other options" indeed, for "whatever reasons"? seems obvious to me. Always playing for tomorrow by saving an extra buck today. 6 years in the minors, 6 cost-controlled years in the majors seem to be the guiding priority (with few exceptions when there no "other options"-option kicks in, there's that phrase again!) over actually putting the best team on the field.

[TheLeviathan]

Chalk me up to agreeing with John. The money excuse doesn't seem likely to me given Hicks and Arcia.

 

Well, I would suggest another key difference. This is a club that has all but an allergy to giving pitchers money. Perhaps they're stringing out Gibson because even now they don't anticipate paying him when he's 31/32 years old and pitching well.

 

I realize how pessimistic that is, but look at the track record too.

[launchingthrees]

I find it rather humorous that many people were very critical of the Twins for starting Hicks' clock early and now many are complaining that we are doing the opposite with Gibson. Ryan really can't win either way. I guess that's why he is paid the big bucks.

 

Yeah because a 23 year old player without a plate appearance at AAA is the same as a 25 year old player with quite a bit of AAA experience.

[drjim]

You're right. Gibson was actually far more ready to pitch in the majors coming out of the draft than Porcello (some clubs would have had Gibson signed and playing in 2009 and starting in the majors in 2010) and less ready than the other two elite pitchers. But the point remains the same, when your first round pick is handled this poorly

 

(from the delay in his signing, to the delay in his TJ surgery, to the delay in his promotion, blind to the facts that he's now more than a year and a half beyond TJ and is likely a better SP, right now, than almost anyone on the current staff)

 

it really is disgusting.

 

Aside from not getting called up right now I don't think Gibson has been handled all that poorly. Keep in mind he was injured when he was drafted. The next season he started to move pretty quick and then got hurt right when he was on the cusp of reaching the majors.

[jokin]

I had forgotten that he was injured with respect to the draft time-frame- but the Twins were still willing to pay at slot for a virtually major-league ready college pitcher and then slow-played his 2011 TJ surgery and recovery and are obviously bungling this promotion. I stand by the assertion that given the alternatives, Gibson would already be in the rotation on most every other major league team right now.

[Oxtung]

I said something to the effect of "if youre team generally acts a certain way, is it unreasonable for fans to think that's what is happening"......I never said it was actually about that.

 

Oh, and explain to me this......how does keeping him in AAA help him develop more than having him here? How many good starts in a row does he need before he comes up? What the measure? Parmalee and Hendriks dominated AAA, how'd that turn out?

 

And we think Deduno and Hernandez and Walters are ready? Why does Gibson have to be a finished product before he comes up, if neither Hicks or Arcia had to be finished products? I mean, if we are going to search for cross-player consistency, why the difference?

 

I have no idea what Ryan is thinking, clearly. I can only go by his general behavior. I think Hicks is mostly up because he had no other options, none. I think Gibson is not up because he has other options, so he can keep him down for whatever reason.

 

I believe the Twins want their starters to consistently go 6+ innings and the more the better. They don't seem to care if that comes with an ERA of 3 or 5 as long as you can pitch deep into a game. Their retoric surrounding pitchers always is about "giving us innings" and "going deep into games" and "saving the bullpen". I would guess the Twins don't feel that Gibson can consistently do that.

 

The other problem I really have with this discussion, and really any when it comes to how fast to move a minor league player, is all that we look at are some stats, maybe we get to see a game or three. We then form opinions on incredibly incomplete information. Just because a guy has a low ERA or a high OPS doesn't mean there aren't things he needs to be working on before advancing to the next level. If a prospect can make adjustments and be successful at a lower level that bodes well for when that prospect does advance. If you can correct mistakes before they are exposed that will increase the amount of success a prospect will have. Ultimately that is what we are hoping for. Successful prospects.

[drjim]

I had forgotten that he was injured with respect to the draft time-frame- but the Twins were still willing to pay at slot for a virtually major-league ready college pitcher and then slow-played his 2011 TJ surgery and recovery and are obviously bungling this promotion. I stand by the assertion that given the alternatives, Gibson would already be in the rotation on most every other major league team right now.

 

They actually went above slot by around $600k for Gibson. He was considered advanced but not major league ready necessarily (aside from the injury). And I don't know what slow playing Tommy John with a prospect means.

 

As far as being in the rotation for other teams, that would depend on specific situations. The bigger point is he should be in the Twins rotation right now.

[Guest USAFChief]

It seems to me you can believe one of two things about Gibson:

 

1. He's one of the best 8 starters available to the Twins right now (Deduno and Walters will be starter numbers 7 and 8 on the season). Therefore, the reason he's not pitching for the Twins right now has to do with controlling money and/or service time, rather than ability.

 

2. He's not one of the best 8 starters currently available to the Twins, which is why he's not pitching in the majors. If you believe that, then I hope you're not one of the people claiming that signing good FAs this past winter would have "blocked" talent. I also hope you're not one of the people claiming Gibson will be leading a talented Twins staff as soon as 2014.

 

I don't see how it can be both. Either he's worse than the dreck that's populated the 2013 rotation, or the Twins are playing funny games with him.

[Joe A. Preusser]

Come on guys, except for his 1st round pedigree, what has Gibson done that Walters hasn't at this point? I want to see Gibson up to stay with the Twins so bad I can taste it, but let's not disrespect Walters in the process. Money and service time likely have nothing to do with it. Walters was just their choice right now, due to performance or rotation schedule I have no idea, but don't jump on the conspiracy bandwagon.

[Oxtung]

It seems to me you can believe one of two things about Gibson:

 

1. He's one of the best 8 starters available to the Twins right now (Deduno and Walters will be starter numbers 7 and 8 on the season). Therefore, the reason he's not pitching for the Twins right now has to do with controlling money and/or service time, rather than ability.

 

2. He's not one of the best 8 starters currently available to the Twins, which is why he's not pitching in the majors. If you believe that, then I hope you're not one of the people claiming that signing good FAs this past winter would have "blocked" talent. I also hope you're not one of the people claiming Gibson will be leading a talented Twins staff as soon as 2014.

 

I don't see how it can be both. Either he's worse than the dreck that's populated the 2013 rotation, or the Twins are playing funny games with him.

 

Or what the Twins look for in pitchers isn't what you look for. Just because you have a fundamental difference in opinion in pitchers from the Twins, and this applies to most people on this board including me, doesn't mean the Twins are "playing games" with their pitchers. It could just mean they believe other pitchers are more likely at this point to be successful at the MLB level.

[Guest USAFChief]

Or what the Twins look for in pitchers isn't what you look for. Just because you have a fundamental difference in opinion in pitchers from the Twins, and this applies to most people on this board including me, doesn't mean the Twins are "playing games" with their pitchers. It could just mean they believe other pitchers are more likely at this point to be successful at the MLB level.

So they believe he's not one of the best 8 starters in the majors or AAA, right now.

 

It's one or the other.

[jokin]

I believe the Twins want their starters to consistently go 6+ innings and the more the better. They don't seem to care if that comes with an ERA of 3 or 5 as long as you can pitch deep into a game. Their retoric surrounding pitchers always is about "giving us innings" and "going deep into games" and "saving the bullpen". I would guess the Twins don't feel that Gibson can consistently do that.

 

The other problem I really have with this discussion, and really any when it comes to how fast to move a minor league player, is all that we look at are some stats, maybe we get to see a game or three. We then form opinions on incredibly incomplete information. Just because a guy has a low ERA or a high OPS doesn't mean there aren't things he needs to be working on before advancing to the next level. If a prospect can make adjustments and be successful at a lower level that bodes well for when that prospect does advance. If you can correct mistakes before they are exposed that will increase the amount of success a prospect will have. Ultimately that is what we are hoping for. Successful prospects.

 

Uhh, he just saved the bullpen in Roc. with a recent 9 inning game, followed in the start after next with a near-no-hit 9 inning game. Another poor excuse by the Twins if they are indeed following this line of rhetoric.

[jokin]

Or what the Twins look for in pitchers isn't what you look for. Just because you have a fundamental difference in opinion in pitchers from the Twins, and this applies to most people on this board including me, doesn't mean the Twins are "playing games" with their pitchers. It could just mean they believe other pitchers are more likely at this point to be successful at the MLB level.

 

I'd love to hear their rationale for the basis of that belief. I'd even tend to give it credence if it didn't involve the other obvious financial stumbling block that's out there--- You know, I know it, the Chief knows, the Twins know it.