The Ghost of Papi Past

[Doctor Gast]

https://www.twinkietown.com/2022/12/22/23503687/mlb-minnesota-twins-david-ortiz-christmas-ghost-papi-mientkiewicz-boston-red-sox-scrooge-thome-cruz

I read this article yesterday and wanted to touch on it a little. Are we still haunted by the ghost of David Ortiz? Yes that was a big mistake that happened a long time ago, but how does it effect us now? One thing that stood out was the past administration mistake of not allowing Ortiz to be Ortiz and not valuing what he brought to the table. I couldn't believe it back then when he was released. His untapped potential was greater than I'd imagined. 

Ok how does that effect us today? That past administration that released Ortiz, had a great system of playing small ball & defense which was very effective. The fear of any following administration to ever make the same mistake has traumatized them. They have overcompensated by abandoning the great system of small ball that was very effective and to the extent of drafting & hoarding Ortiz type players and try to coach everyone into the David Ortiz mold. Thus making the  same mistake in reverse. The true mistake we made wasn't that we released Ortiz, because Twins version of David Ortiz wouldn't have achieved what the true version of David Ortiz had done. Our mistake was not allowing Ortiz to be Ortiz and not valuing his worth.

How do we over come this haunting? We need to overcome our phobia, return to center. Return to the great system of small ball & defense. Next valorize strength of each player and coach them accordingly to maximize their potential not try to fit them into the mold we want them to be. Mainly draft athletic players that should stick at CF, SS & catcher.

[Craig Arko]

I’m waiting for the Ghost of Papi Yet to Come.

[Linus]

How long ago was this?  It’s ironic that TK wanting him to use the whole field made him millions banging the ball off the Green Monster. Oh and the special vitamins.   A bunch of teams passed on him after the Twins released him. Time to get over it. 

[Doctor Gast]

12 hours ago, Linus said:

How long ago was this?  It’s ironic that TK wanting him to use the whole field made him millions banging the ball off the Green Monster. Oh and the special vitamins.   A bunch of teams passed on him after the Twins released him. Time to get over it. 

That's my point. But it goes beyond trying to forget about it, when we keep making the same mistake of over compensating because of this one mistake of releasing Ortiz. I loosely threw out the term "Freudian slip" on a different thread, I decided to look it up. It means "In psychoanalysis, a Freudian slip, also called parapraxis, is an error in speech, memory, or physical action that occurs due to the interference of an unconscious subdued wish or internal train of thought". Wikipedia

The Twins have suffered much embarrassment over this one mistake that totally transformed this organization from a well trained machine mold into a Ortiz mold. Drafting, coaching, signing & hoarding players that fit in that Ortiz mold. Although Gallo's glove doesn't fit the Ortiz mold but his expensive bat does.

The Twins need to realize that their greatest mistake wasn't releasing Ortiz it was trying to fit him to their mold & not valorizing who he was & not developing it. Now they need to throw away that Ortiz mold, get back to small ball & defense, draft more athletic CF,SS & catcher players, trade away redundant Ortiz type players and valorize each player & maximize their potential. Then we can lay this ghost to rest.

[chpettit19]

I don't think the David Ortiz decision has impacted this FO in any way, shape, or form. The "Ortiz mold" is the MLB mold in 2023. Power wins. This isn't about David Ortiz, it's about modern baseball strategy.

I disagree that they're trying to turn every player into Ortiz, though. Didn't do it with Arraez. Or Celestino. Or Miranda. Or Polanco. Or Urshela. Or Gordon. Or Kirilloff. Or Martin. Or Lewis. Or Rosario. Or Wade Jr. Or Astudillo. Or Adrianza. Or Kepler. Or Grossman. Or Mauer. Or Escobar. Or Cave. I do, however, agree that they need more up the middle type athletes. HRs still rule the league, though. Power is still king. We'll see if it balances out a little with the new rules being put in place, though.

[IA Bean Counter]

Papi isn't Papi without going to the Red Sox.  The green monster helped him immensely and find the greatness inside him.  I don't see that happening on almost any other team.   

The organization thought they had a system of finding pull hitters and having them use launch angles to hit home runs when they came in. It worked in 2019.   Since then it hasn't worked as well.   They are becoming more balanced overall in my opinion.  However then we go out and pick up the most strike prone pull happy hitter there is.   I still think there is value there.   

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think the David Ortiz decision has impacted this FO in any way, shape, or form. The "Ortiz mold" is the MLB mold in 2023. Power wins. This isn't about David Ortiz, it's about modern baseball strategy.

I disagree that they're trying to turn every player into Ortiz, though. Didn't do it with Arraez. Or Celestino. Or Miranda. Or Polanco. Or Urshela. Or Gordon. Or Kirilloff. Or Martin. Or Lewis. Or Rosario. Or Wade Jr. Or Astudillo. Or Adrianza. Or Kepler. Or Grossman. Or Mauer. Or Escobar. Or Cave. I do, however, agree that they need more up the middle type athletes. HRs still rule the league, though. Power is still king. We'll see if it balances out a little with the new rules being put in place, though.

Agreed that these players didn't yield to the pull & lift every pitch, they were able to go their own way. Buxton had a tough time in the beginning because he couldn't adjust to the way they were coaching him. Until he decided to forget everything he was coached & did it his own way. Then his hitting began to take off. 

The Twins were the 1st on this HR bandwagon and in '19 it really paid off. But since the pitchers have adjusted & the dead ball has hurt these type of sluggers. In '19 Sano was in a groove but that same swing now has become a rut that he couldn't get out of. I see Jeffers in that same rut. Simmons was hitting great until he had some down time where his swing had changed & he looked ridiculous. So if those who don't listen to what they are coached are doing well and those who do, aren't. So why do we continue to stress it?

HRs still rules mainly if you're lucky enough to receive juiced balls. Which it seems we haven't lately.

[Craig Arko]

As I recall, Kennys Vargas was going to be the next Papi here, then Sano was going to be. It turned out the 2019 juiced ball was the actual heir apparent.

[chpettit19]

20 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Agreed that these players didn't yield to the pull & lift every pitch, they were able to go their own way. Buxton had a tough time in the beginning because he couldn't adjust to the way they were coaching him. Until he decided to forget everything he was coached & did it his own way. Then his hitting began to take off. 

The Twins were the 1st on this HR bandwagon and in '19 it really paid off. But since the pitchers have adjusted & the dead ball has hurt these type of sluggers. In '19 Sano was in a groove but that same swing now has become a rut that he couldn't get out of. I see Jeffers in that same rut. Simmons was hitting great until he had some down time where his swing had changed & he looked ridiculous.

HRs still rules mainly if you're lucky enough to receive juiced balls. Which it seems we haven't lately.

That's 18 players that "were able to go their own way." I think that's a pretty good sample size to say the Twins aren't forcing everyone to be "pull and lift every pitch" hitters. The Twins were actually attempting to get Buxton to hit the ball on the ground and use his speed more when he was struggling. That was before the new FO took over. Buxton's first successful season was the season after the new FO took over and the development process changed from "everyone needs to be small ball slap hitters" to "take what they do best and try to add on top of it." Buxton is actually an example of a success under this FO by not forcing a player to be what they wanted them to be.

The Twins were absolutely not first on the HR bandwagon. This FO leaned into it harder than the previous one. Significantly more, actually. But they didn't lead the charge here. And aren't leading it now. Simmons is your example of them ruining a player? I mean if that's your best example I think it speaks for itself. He's never been a good hitter. His very best season ever was 2018 when he was barely above league average. He's always been a terrible hitter. Sano K'd more in 2019 than he did in 2021 or 2022. 2019 was tied for his 2nd lowest max exit velo (not counting his lost 2022 season) season of his career. He hit the ball harder on average in 2020 than he did 2019. His hardhit% was better in 2020, and only slightly worse in 2021. I don't think he's a good example of what you're trying to get at either.

Of the top 10 HR hitting teams in baseball last year, 8 of them were top 10 scoring offenses. Not sure that really supports the "lucky enough to receive juiced balls" hypothesis. 

 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think the David Ortiz decision has impacted this FO in any way, shape, or form. The "Ortiz mold" is the MLB mold in 2023. Power wins. This isn't about David Ortiz, it's about modern baseball strategy.

I disagree that they're trying to turn every player into Ortiz, though. Didn't do it with Arraez. Or Celestino. Or Miranda. Or Polanco. Or Urshela. Or Gordon. Or Kirilloff. Or Martin. Or Lewis. Or Rosario. Or Wade Jr. Or Astudillo. Or Adrianza. Or Kepler. Or Grossman. Or Mauer. Or Escobar. Or Cave. I do, however, agree that they need more up the middle type athletes. HRs still rule the league, though. Power is still king. We'll see if it balances out a little with the new rules being put in place, though.

Agreed. 1000000%.

[Eris]

Big Papi had a career 17.3 K%. On the 2022 Twins only Miranda (18.8), Urshela (17.4), Kepler (14.8), and Arraez (7.1%) have a K% less than 20. 
 

As a comparison, Joe Mauer had a career K% of 13.0. 
 

If there is a learning from releasing Big Papi it seems that it should be we need players with power who do not strike out a lot. 
 

all data is from Fangraphs. 

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Buxton's first successful season was the season after the new FO took over and the development process changed from "everyone needs to be small ball slap hitters" to "take what they do best and try to add on top of it." Buxton is actually an example of a success under this FO by not forcing a player to be what they wanted them to be.

The "everybody needs to be small slap hitter" coaching philosophy died when TK left, although it was practiced by the core that was left behind.

A Buxton quotation from TD Parker Hageman Let's Talk About Byron Buxton Swing" in May 20 '19. 

This spring, as Buxton strolled into camp with a new swing, he proudly proclaimed -- channeling his inner Frank Sinatra -- that he did it his way.

“It’s my swing, my thought process, my thinking, everything with my swing now is me,” he told Dan Hayes of The Athletic. “I didn’t go to no hitting coach, I didn’t go work out with nobody, I worked out by myself, I hit by myself and that’s where it’s going to stay.”

So this FO can't take credit for Buxton's success

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

The "everybody needs to be small slap hitter" coaching philosophy died when TK left, although it was practiced by the core that was left behind.

A Buxton quotation from TD Parker Hageman Let's Talk About Byron Buxton Swing" in May 20 '19. 

This spring, as Buxton strolled into camp with a new swing, he proudly proclaimed -- channeling his inner Frank Sinatra -- that he did it his way.

“It’s my swing, my thought process, my thinking, everything with my swing now is me,” he told Dan Hayes of The Athletic. “I didn’t go to no hitting coach, I didn’t go work out with nobody, I worked out by myself, I hit by myself and that’s where it’s going to stay.”

So this FO can't take credit for Buxton's success

I'm not "giving them credit" for his success. I'm simply pointing out that the entire premise of the Twins needing to get over Ortiz and not force everyone into a cookie cutter Ortiz approach is wrong. You literally just disproved your own stance of them forcing hitters to be a certain way. Not to mention the 18 other guys you agreed they didn't make do things with that 1 approach. My point from my very first post on here was that this FO couldn't care less about Ortiz, and are developing players in a far from cookie cutter way.

[Parfigliano]

6 hours ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Papi isn't Papi without going to the Red Sox.  The green monster helped him immensely and find the greatness inside him.  I don't see that happening on almost any other team.   

The organization thought they had a system of finding pull hitters and having them use launch angles to hit home runs when they came in. It worked in 2019.   Since then it hasn't worked as well.   They are becoming more balanced overall in my opinion.  However then we go out and pick up the most strike prone pull happy hitter there is.   I still think there is value there.   

Horse hockey.   

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

The "everybody needs to be small slap hitter" coaching philosophy died when TK left, although it was practiced by the core that was left behind.

A Buxton quotation from TD Parker Hageman Let's Talk About Byron Buxton Swing" in May 20 '19. 

This spring, as Buxton strolled into camp with a new swing, he proudly proclaimed -- channeling his inner Frank Sinatra -- that he did it his way.

“It’s my swing, my thought process, my thinking, everything with my swing now is me,” he told Dan Hayes of The Athletic. “I didn’t go to no hitting coach, I didn’t go work out with nobody, I worked out by myself, I hit by myself and that’s where it’s going to stay.”

So this FO can't take credit for Buxton's success

Maybe Buxton plays 100 games.  Thats the Twins success?  

Not.

[Doctor Gast]

On 12/28/2022 at 2:00 PM, chpettit19 said:

I'm not "giving them credit" for his success. I'm simply pointing out that the entire premise of the Twins needing to get over Ortiz and not force everyone into a cookie cutter Ortiz approach is wrong. You literally just disproved your own stance of them forcing hitters to be a certain way. Not to mention the 18 other guys you agreed they didn't make do things with that 1 approach. My point from my very first post on here was that this FO couldn't care less about Ortiz, and are developing players in a far from cookie cutter way.

I'm sorry chpettit if I had used the word "forced", my intention was more "stressed" in the way of the hitting philosophy of trying to hit a HR every pitch. They stress that not forced it on anybody. But my point is by stressing this approach those who embraced this coaching were subject to a lot of SOs & FOs because pitchers had adjusted by feeding them high FBs & breaking outside pitches. I don't want this kind of philosophy where those who don't listen to the coaching do better & those who listen which find themselves in a slump.

I don't want a coach stress a certain philosophy, I want a coach that communicates with each hitter & works with each hitter to find their own swing & become a better hitter. Much like Rowson did.

 https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/10/02/minnesota-twins-james-rowson-mlb-playoffs

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'm sorry chpettit if I had used the word "forced", my intention was more "stressed" in the way of the hitting philosophy of trying to hit a HR every pitch. They stress that not forced it on anybody. But my point is by stressing this approach those who embraced this coaching were subject to a lot of SOs & FOs because pitchers had adjusted by feeding them high FBs & breaking outside pitches. I don't want this kind of philosophy where those who don't listen to the coaching do better & those who listen which find themselves in a slump.

I don't want a coach stress a certain philosophy, I want a coach that communicates with each hitter & works with each hitter to find their own swing & become a better hitter. Much like Rowson did.

 https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/10/02/minnesota-twins-james-rowson-mlb-playoffs

Forced vs Stressed isn't what I'm getting at. I'm suggesting they aren't "stressing" that to everyone and having some guys listen and some guys not. I'm saying your impression of what the coaching looks like is wrong. If you think the 19 guys we've mentioned to this point have simply ignored coaching and are doing better because of it you're wrong. That isn't what's happening.

https://theathletic.com/3333711/2022/05/26/david-popkins-twins-hitting-coach/

First 2 paragraphs of this article (in case you don't have an Athletic account):

"When they hired him last November, the Twins wanted hitting coach David Popkins to provide new ideas in what they believe to be an ever-changing landscape.

Following a historically slow start to the 2022 season, Twins hitters appear to like the message they’re hearing from Popkins, 32. Whether it’s the new practice techniques he implemented, how he breaks down analytical information and scouting reports or the individually tailored plans he provided, Popkins has made a strong first impression on Twins hitters."

The bold was added by me. But what I'm saying is that the idea that the Twins are trying to coach every hitter to be pull and lift the ball hitters and it's leading to SOs & FOs is incorrect. That is not what is happening.

[Trov]

I do not think the FO is trying to change how players play.  I do not think they are trying to just get slow big hitting guys.  They did have a stretch of drafting bat first limited defense guys, but they also drafted big time athletes as well.  They had a few of the Walner, Sabato, Larnach, Rooker, but they also drafted athletic SS types that are not huge power guys.  

Buck finally took off when he went up there looking to drive every ball over the fence.  It was prior when he was being coached to hit ball on ground and use speed that he struggled.  I think in part the FO is looking for power guys, because we really do not have any clear big power guys.  Not every one will make it, so you need to draft many. 

[Doctor Gast]

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Forced vs Stressed isn't what I'm getting at. I'm suggesting they aren't "stressing" that to everyone and having some guys listen and some guys not. I'm saying your impression of what the coaching looks like is wrong. If you think the 19 guys we've mentioned to this point have simply ignored coaching and are doing better because of it you're wrong. That isn't what's happening.

https://theathletic.com/3333711/2022/05/26/david-popkins-twins-hitting-coach/

First 2 paragraphs of this article (in case you don't have an Athletic account):

"When they hired him last November, the Twins wanted hitting coach David Popkins to provide new ideas in what they believe to be an ever-changing landscape.

Following a historically slow start to the 2022 season, Twins hitters appear to like the message they’re hearing from Popkins, 32. Whether it’s the new practice techniques he implemented, how he breaks down analytical information and scouting reports or the individually tailored plans he provided, Popkins has made a strong first impression on Twins hitters."

The bold was added by me. But what I'm saying is that the idea that the Twins are trying to coach every hitter to be pull and lift the ball hitters and it's leading to SOs & FOs is incorrect. That is not what is happening.

All I hear from this organization since '19, is moonshots, moonshots, moonshots and they go out & gets the LAD coach that led their division in HRs. He wasn't able to help Sano, Jeffers or Sanchez with their SO problem, they got worse. You have to excuse me if I don't take much stock in "the individually tailored plans he provided", if that plan is to help each hitter become a better hitters or hit more HRs (the article never really stated which).

But I thank you for that reference & I ended up subscribing.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

All I hear from this organization since '19, is moonshots, moonshots, moonshots and they go out & gets the LAD coach that led their division in HRs. He wasn't able to help Sano, Jeffers or Sanchez with their SO problem, they got worse. You have to excuse me if I don't take much stock in "the individually tailored plans he provided", if that plan is to help each hitter become a better hitters or hit more HRs (the article never really stated which).

But I thank you for that reference & I ended subscribing.

It's possible sano want fixable. It's possible it takes more than one injured year to fix Jeffers. Or maybe it just requires health.....

[wsnydes]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

All I hear from this organization since '19, is moonshots, moonshots, moonshots and they go out & gets the LAD coach that led their division in HRs. He wasn't able to help Sano, Jeffers or Sanchez with their SO problem, they got worse. You have to excuse me if I don't take much stock in "the individually tailored plans he provided", if that plan is to help each hitter become a better hitters or hit more HRs (the article never really stated which).

But I thank you for that reference & I ended up subscribing.

Without really trying to disagree with you, at some point success has to be on the individual player.  They are the one in the box.  They are the ones trying to determine what a pitcher is trying to do to them.  They need to read the pitch and then decide to swing or not.

And in the case of Sano, with the amount of pitches he didn't make contact with INSIDE the zone, there's something else going on there that's likely beyond coaching and engrained in his approach and/or ability.

And then there's also the fact that some players will respond better or worse to a given coach's message.  

Personally, I think the overall brutality of the offensive output is a much larger indicator of coaching than any individual performance does.

[chpettit19]

4 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

All I hear from this organization since '19, is moonshots, moonshots, moonshots and they go out & gets the LAD coach that led their division in HRs. He wasn't able to help Sano, Jeffers or Sanchez with their SO problem, they got worse. You have to excuse me if I don't take much stock in "the individually tailored plans he provided", if that plan is to help each hitter become a better hitters or hit more HRs (the article never really stated which).

But I thank you for that reference & I ended up subscribing.

The Athletic is great, I think you'll find that subscription well worth the money.

Rowson was the Twins hitting coach from 2017-2019, Marlins bench coach and hitting instructor from 2020 through 2022. The K% and league ranks of his offenses are as folllows:
2017- 21.4% 15th in baseball
2018- 21.6% 9th in baseball
2019- 20.9% 4th in baseball
2020- 24.8% 22nd in baseball
2021- 26.2% 29th in baseball
2022- 24.0% 26th in baseball

As a comparison the Twins were at 22.1% and 12th in baseball in K% in 2022 under Popkins (were 19th and 14th in 2020 and 2021 before Popkins arrived). I don't say that to show that Popkins is the answer, or better than Rowson, or anything like that. Just pointing out that the guy you think had individualized plans that allowed for the offense to improve it's SO problem went to Florida and watched his team strikeout more than just about anybody in baseball (the Marlins were actually tied for 29th in baseball in K% over the 3 years he was there). We'll see what Detroit does this year.

I think you're drawing conclusions that can't be drawn. Rowson wasn't able to help anyone on the Marlins with their strikeout problems. He didn't help Sano with his strikeout problem (Sano struck out 35.3% of the time in 2022 small sample, he was at 35.8, 38.5, and 36.2% under Rowson). I just think you're making connections that can't be made. Hitting coaches aren't magicians. They can't make bad hitters suddenly good.

[Doctor Gast]

13 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

The Athletic is great, I think you'll find that subscription well worth the money.

Rowson was the Twins hitting coach from 2017-2019, Marlins bench coach and hitting instructor from 2020 through 2022. The K% and league ranks of his offenses are as folllows:
2017- 21.4% 15th in baseball
2018- 21.6% 9th in baseball
2019- 20.9% 4th in baseball
2020- 24.8% 22nd in baseball
2021- 26.2% 29th in baseball
2022- 24.0% 26th in baseball

As a comparison the Twins were at 22.1% and 12th in baseball in K% in 2022 under Popkins (were 19th and 14th in 2020 and 2021 before Popkins arrived). I don't say that to show that Popkins is the answer, or better than Rowson, or anything like that. Just pointing out that the guy you think had individualized plans that allowed for the offense to improve it's SO problem went to Florida and watched his team strikeout more than just about anybody in baseball (the Marlins were actually tied for 29th in baseball in K% over the 3 years he was there). We'll see what Detroit does this year.

I think you're drawing conclusions that can't be drawn. Rowson wasn't able to help anyone on the Marlins with their strikeout problems. He didn't help Sano with his strikeout problem (Sano struck out 35.3% of the time in 2022 small sample, he was at 35.8, 38.5, and 36.2% under Rowson). I just think you're making connections that can't be made. Hitting coaches aren't magicians. They can't make bad hitters suddenly good.

Thank you for that data. As the data shows when Rowson became batting coach in '17 MN ranked at 15th, improved to 9th in '18 & to 4th in '19. Rowson's ambition isn't to be a hitting coach it's to be manager. He applied for the job that Baldelli got. At MIA he was bench manager & I believe offense coordinator, no where have I heard that he was a batter instructor. His main focus was managing not coaching. While batting coach his forte was his individual personal daily communication which his players, as his positions at MIA, no way he could do that. So he no direct effect on MIA's result. I think some owners & FO believe things happen by osmosis just by association.

Yes, it'll be interesting how things shake out in DET, even though he's only assistant. We are of two camps. You believe coaches have no effects on the players where I believe they do. I do agree with you that coaches can't do miracles with players that don't want or care to change.

[chpettit19]

10 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Thank you for that data. As the data shows when Rowson became batting coach in '17 MN ranked at 15th, improved to 9th in '18 & to 4th in '19. Rowson's ambition isn't to be a hitting coach it's to be manager. He applied for the job that Baldelli got. At MIA he was bench manager & I believe offense coordinator, no where have I heard that he was a batter instructor. His main focus was managing not coaching. While batting coach his forte was his individual personal daily communication which his players, as his positions at MIA, no way he could do that. So he no direct effect on MIA's result. I think some owners & FO believe things happen by osmosis just by association.

Yes, it'll be interesting how things shake out in DET, even though he's only assistant. We are of two camps. You believe coaches have no effects on the players where I believe they do. I do agree with you that coaches can't do miracles with players that don't want or care to change.

Now you're just trying to cushion yourself from the Rowson stuff. He had no direct effect on Miami's results?! No wonder they didn't want him back. Fine, offensive coordinator. He was tasked with implementing hitting philosophies throughout the organization. Did his philosophy not include striking out less than all but 1 team in major league baseball during his tenure? He took a demotion going to Detroit. "Only an assistant?" So when they fail as well it isn't really his fault? Come on. That's not a great sales pitch for him being some great hitter whisperer who single handedly saved the Twins offense.

I never said coaches have no effects on players. They absolutely do. What I'm saying is your expectations are unrealistic. You say Popkins/the Twins aren't good because they didn't fix Sano's SO problem, and claim Rowson is very good despite the fact that Sano struck out more during all 3 seasons with Rowson than he did in his 1 very short year with Popkins. My point is that Mike Trout isn't Mike Trout because he "wanted and cared to change." John Ryan Murphy wasn't John Ryan Murphy because he "didn't want or care to change." Mike Trout is more talented than John Ryan Murphy. That had nothing to do with coaching. I'm saying your balance of coaching vs talent is way off. Not to mention that getting players to "want or care to change" is a gigantic part of being a good coach. If you can't convince players what you're saying will help you're not a good coach.

[SkyBlueWaters]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:53 AM, Doctor Gast said:

... valorize strength of each player and coach them accordingly to maximize their potential not try to fit them into the mold we want them to be. 

First, nice post. Thoughtful and well done.

Second, this is speculative and probably lots will disagree, but there have been situations in my life where I had strengths and weaknesses and was forced to work on the weaknesses. It was difficult, but ultimately the work put in made me better overall, when I could return to what came easier for me. 

Is it possible that, because David Ortiz was made to try to hit to all fields, he was a better hitter when allowed to return to his strength?

[Rosterman]

Easy decision. Matt LeCroy or David Ortiz!

[Doctor Gast]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Now you're just trying to cushion yourself from the Rowson stuff. He had no direct effect on Miami's results?! No wonder they didn't want him back. Fine, offensive coordinator. He was tasked with implementing hitting philosophies throughout the organization. Did his philosophy not include striking out less than all but 1 team in major league baseball during his tenure? He took a demotion going to Detroit. "Only an assistant?" So when they fail as well it isn't really his fault? Come on. That's not a great sales pitch for him being some great hitter whisperer who single handedly saved the Twins offense.

I never said coaches have no effects on players. They absolutely do. What I'm saying is your expectations are unrealistic. You say Popkins/the Twins aren't good because they didn't fix Sano's SO problem, and claim Rowson is very good despite the fact that Sano struck out more during all 3 seasons with Rowson than he did in his 1 very short year with Popkins. My point is that Mike Trout isn't Mike Trout because he "wanted and cared to change." John Ryan Murphy wasn't John Ryan Murphy because he "didn't want or care to change." Mike Trout is more talented than John Ryan Murphy. That had nothing to do with coaching. I'm saying your balance of coaching vs talent is way off. Not to mention that getting players to "want or care to change" is a gigantic part of being a good coach. If you can't convince players what you're saying will help you're not a good coach.

Rowson is a terrific hitting coach. He's not a very good manager or offensive coordinator, that's why he was fired. As I said before he's not someone who's to implement some hitting philosophy, his forte is one to one relationship coaching. A few articles & players have credited Rowson to the Twins hitting success in his tenure here. 

Yes there are players that slip up to MLB that shouldn't have, there are player who think they don't need to change (I've taught and I've done everything I could to motivated students to understand that what I was teaching was vital to their success in life but some chose not to maximize their efforts) and there's very little you can do with them. But I'm not talking about them.

Sano SO a lot while with Rowson but he also had a lot of success but I'm not crediting Rowson for this. Pitchers adjusted to Sano and took away that success. I don't know for sure why Sano couldn't adjust. IDK what's Popkins hitting philosophy or style, it's hard when everything is so under wraps, I'm just assuming by the little I pick up from what I see this FO stresses.

[chpettit19]

15 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Rowson is a terrific hitting coach. He's not a very good manager or offensive coordinator, that's why he was fired. As I said before he's not someone who's to implement some hitting philosophy, his forte is one to one relationship coaching. A few articles & players have credited Rowson to the Twins hitting success in his tenure here. 

Yes there are players that slip up to MLB that shouldn't have, there are player who think they don't need to change (I've taught and I've done everything I could to motivated students to understand that what I was teaching was vital to their success in life but some chose not to maximize their efforts) and there's very little you can do with them. But I'm not talking about them.

Sano SO a lot while with Rowson but he also had a lot of success but I'm not crediting Rowson for this. Pitchers adjusted to Sano and took away that success. I don't know for sure why Sano couldn't adjust. IDK what's Popkins hitting philosophy or style, it's hard when everything is so under wraps, I'm just assuming by the little I pick up from what I see this FO stresses.

I agree, Rowson is a good hitting coach. I haven't seen enough of Popkins to have a feeling on him. I don't know why you're so confident Rowson isn't "someone who's to implement some hitting philosophy." I'd guess that's based mostly on the Marlin's results not matching what you think they should. He wasn't a manager in Miami. He was the bench coach. But, either way, he had every opportunity to go work with the hitters 1 on 1 if he, and they, wanted. Charlie Manuel got all sorts of credit for those Phillies teams with Rollins, Utley, etc. hitting success even though he was the manager. All those guys give him credit for teaching them about hitting. The idea that Rowson simply couldn't impact the hitting results of that team because he was "bench coach and offensive coordinator" isn't accurate.

You also don't know a ton about Rowson's hitting philosophy. I think it's pretty accepted that he had a general philosophy of being aggressive in the zone when you get your pitch. But beyond that I don't think there's a lot you know about Rowson that you don't know about Popkins. The entire league stresses power. It's the most sought after offensive tool in baseball. We've agreed that there's at least 20 hitters the Twins have had in recent seasons, or currently, that aren't simply HR type hitters. FYI the Twins were tied for 10th in Oppo% in 2022. They went the other way more often than 20 other teams, and more than league average. They weren't as pull happy as they may have seemed.

[mnfireman]

Ortiz was uncoachable, lazy and selfish in his time with the Twins. He figured it out after he left here and took the game and the preparation a little more serious (the vitamin injections didn't hurt ?). 

Also I can't find any articles where it states Kelly and the Twins forced him to "slap" the ball. They may have asked him to "cut down" a little with two strikes or with a runner in scoring position late in a close game, but they never, that I can find, asked him to become a slap hitter.

Papi built his persona by creating the ultimate illusion of making yourself out to be the victim in order to become the good guy

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/05/16/david-ortiz-still-doesnt-like-tom-kelly

[Longdistancetwins]

47 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

 

Papi built his persona by creating the ultimate illusion of making yourself out to be the victim in order to become the good guy

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/05/16/david-ortiz-still-doesnt-like-tom-kelly

Very insightful article all Twins fans should read.  Thanks!  I guess Ortiz did use the next five years to sound a little less self-absorbed in his Hall of Fame induction speech.