The failure to reel Carlos Correa in has left me thinking....

(Oh, and while I'm like a lot of folks who lump the two top guys together as "FalVine", for purposes of discussion here I mean just the top top-guy.)

I'm willing to wait until ST to see what other moves he makes, but if we get more of the same head scratchers...then I really don't care how he leaves, as long as he goes. 

I'm hoping the duo stay with the Twins for a long time. They are building an organization, one they inherited with a short off-season to get set in their ways. They went thru COVID. They were stuck with a manager they really didn't want.

I like how they have set up the instructional part of the minor leagues.

The only reason for them to depart would be if offered a better job with teams that are more than willing to spend money without counting every nickel and dime.

Give them as much rope as you can and let's see where they go in our generations.

 

I have no idea. They were crushed by injuries last year. But their free agent work and trades have been more bad than good. The longer they are in control, the worse ..... But, and I repeat, they were crushed by injuries last year. I really don't know. I think they've blown the last two free agent periods. They were flush with budget, and had back to back historical classes, and have one year of CC to show for it. 

I chose the next 2-3 years but I don't even blame the front office for making some of their decisions.

But they've stacked bad luck - massive injuries in 2022 leading to a drain of the farm system - on top of bad decisions - not using free agency to fill holes this offseason leading to more trades coming - to kneecap the farm system, and I don't think it's going to get better for awhile. That in itself may sink this front office over the next couple of seasons.

I've maintained for quite a while that given what Falvey was tasked with in rebuilding the organization from the ground up that he'll get plenty of time to do that.  I still think that's true, but I do think it's time that those evaluations of the full process can start to be made.  As such, I voted for him getting fired down the road, but wouldn't be surprised if it came in the next couple of years barring positive developments.

I'm willing to wait to judge the off-season as a whole until ST starts, but the moves this far aren't promising.  

 

I chose Rally Monkey ... with proud uncertainty. 

I really never know how this works. I don't know how things are on the 'inside.' I'm privy to nothing, so I can't say how I would answer in regards to someone's life. I wonder, though, with one Pohlad stepping down, and the next stepping up, if that will have any factor at all. <shrug>

ONE of the free agents who have signed the 20 biggest free agent deals in MLB history has won a World Series while playing on that deal........

Where is the pitching pipeline?

28 minutes ago, dxpavelka said:

ONE of the free agents who have signed the 20 biggest free agent deals in MLB history has won a World Series while playing on that deal........

Wow, I actually find that detail stunning.

28 minutes ago, AceWrigley said:

Wow, I actually find that detail stunning.

Goes to show you that there are no guarantees in life

The attendance numbers will make the decision easy. 

I don't know what all goes on inside this front office.

I don't agree that the state of the franchise was in a state of disrepair in 2017.

I do think that the current front office has been given unprecedented financial support.

I do believe that the support of the community, via attendance and media viewership, will be the final judgment.

I do hope the Twins put a decent product on the field worth watching in 2023 and await the changes in strategy and roster needed to accomplish that goal.

 

1 hour ago, AceWrigley said:

Wow, I actually find that detail stunning.

Why?  Betting on past performance?  Past performance does not equate future results.

50 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Goes to show you that there are no guarantees in life

Cliché:  death and taxes

How many years were there complaints from fans about Terry Ryan before Total System Failure? 

I’m ready to move on from the regime, but I have zero expectation that the Pohlads and DSP are. In fact, what’s happening this offseason is in near alignment from DSP’s tone deaf comments at the beginning of the offseason. Slashing the payroll until fans decide to show up to Target Field. 

4 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

ONE of the free agents who have signed the 20 biggest free agent deals in MLB history has won a World Series while playing on that deal........

How about the next tier down.... Not the Happ level, the level l above that .... Also, if WS is your only success measure, we have a different measure. 

I think attendance will be a key factor. If we start to see Oakland crowds here...then, the end could be near. Yes, the pandemic has had a big effect on that too, but successful teams draw people. I'm not a fan of Falvey and Levine, but I also don't think things will change very much with the Pohlad ownership. They not in baseball to win.  

I'm not thrilled with the Falvey, Levine, Rocco Triumvirate , but I have no idea who I'd recommend for replacements either.

32 minutes ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

I'm not thrilled with the Falvey, Levine, Rocco Triumvirate , but I have no idea who I'd recommend for replacements either.

Raid the Cardinals front office.

13 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

ONE of the free agents who have signed the 20 biggest free agent deals in MLB history has won a World Series while playing on that deal........

Is this a bit misleading? I mean players with huge contracts have won the World Series. and the 20 largest is a moving target right? Signing players to huge contracts doesn't guarantee you anything, but have great players on your team sure does help.

I could say something like every World Series winner since 2017 has had at least one player making over 20 million and at least one making over 15.

 

 

 

Through the years it does seem that GM's and POBO's are very loyal to their teams. There have been a few that have been lured to another organization for more money and car wash coupons but not many. Typically, it is someone in the 2nd chair changing teams for a 1st chair. 

Twins ownership does seem to exhibit stability, loyalty or patience because the people at the top have gotten nice long runs in comparison to other teams who adjust more often.

These two things lead me to guess that we should settle in for the long haul and support our front office instead for wishing horrible things to force a change. 

9 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

These two things lead me to guess that we should settle in for the long haul and support our front office instead for wishing horrible things to force a change. 

We the fan base must be Oliver Twist in this nightmare - "Please sir, may we have more...."  More of the same talent development, drafting, trading, and FA signings.......

23 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

 

Through the years it does seem that GM's and POBO's are very loyal to their teams. There have been a few that have been lured to another organization for more money and car wash coupons but not many. Typically, it is someone in the 2nd chair changing teams for a 1st chair. 

Twins ownership does seem to exhibit stability, loyalty or patience because the people at the top have gotten nice long runs in comparison to other teams who adjust more often.

These two things lead me to guess that we should settle in for the long haul and support our front office instead for wishing horrible things to force a change. 

Not wishing for bad things, but expecting them based on roster decisions

15 minutes ago, sjunisu said:

We the fan base must be Oliver Twist in this nightmare - "Please sir, may we have more...."  More of the same talent development, drafting, trading, and FA signings.......

For More! Do I understand that you have asked for more, after you have eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?

On 12/17/2022 at 9:57 AM, ashbury said:

The failure to reel Carlos Correa in has left me thinking....

... thinking that Falvey must be reconsidering his life choices, by now.

The FO seems to have gone into the off-season believing they had a solid chance to keep Correa, feeling that an offer that was "close" would for once get them the prize.  Then they got blown away by an offer reputedly $65M higher than theirs ,and had no resources in reserve to say "damn the torpedos full speed ahead."

If a franchise with much deeper resources made Derek an offer of a lateral move to join them, would he turn it down, a la Billy Beane with the Red Sox reputedly a few year ago?

Thanks to all who chimed in with their thoughts.  I go along with the idea that loyalty will rule the day and Falvey will stay the course, for as long as he's welcome by his higher-ups.  But for the first time, my thinking of replacing the FO is tempered by the possibility that one or more of them might go ahead and quit before they could be fired.  And also that it might be harder to replace them, with someone even as good, than I can know.

14 hours ago, tony&amp;rodney said:

The attendance numbers will make the decision easy. 

Until a few days ago I had been operating on an assumption that ballpark attendance was a black mark for the franchise. But attendance all around the majors is down a bit. It's important to chose endpoints carefully, so I compared attendance in 2018 to 2022, in order to avoid the bias of that one Bomba Squad season in 2019, and while the Twins' attendance is indeed down, so are enough of the other teams that their rank remains just about exactly the same now as it was.  I feel that attendance needs to be addressed, but it's not like our FO is notably deficient.

12 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Until a few days ago I had been operating on an assumption that ballpark attendance was a black mark for the franchise. But attendance all around the majors is down a bit. It's important to chose endpoints carefully, so I compared attendance in 2018 to 2022, in order to avoid the bias of that one Bomba Squad season in 2019, and while the Twins' attendance is indeed down, so are enough of the other teams that their rank remains just about exactly the same now as it was.  I feel that attendance needs to be addressed, but it's not like our FO is notably deficient.

The issue in my guess is going forward to some extent. If we are to look at the general reaction (particularly among people under 40 years old) to the style of baseball played by the Twins in the last few years, it is not favorable. You and I will watch this play out but poor play and the strike out or home run is not a natural draw. Last offseason I wrote that 2022 provided a unique opportunity for the Twins baseball organization to benefit from the pent-up demand as Covid closures were in the past. This did occur fantastically for entertainment business across the board. The Twins put a slow game forth and the fans didn't show in the numbers one might have expected. Dave St. Peter actually discussed his disappointment with attendance numbers but is apparently blind to the general public and their views of good entertainment. Of course, I do want the Twins to succeed and draw at least two million fans. If those of us who are sicko diehard Twins fans are not enthralled with the product on the field, how can we expect the casual fan to take an interest and pay attention via viewership or attendance at the games? While my general stance has been to leave the acquisition of players to the front office because they are the only ones with the voice, it is difficult to see the mediocrity of their work. We have heard that Joe Pohlad is interested to some degree in baseball which may mean that he will pay more attention to the product on the field, but the Pohlads have been very consistent in their reign. They do pay attention to the attendance and media viewership numbers. That is why I say it will be the financial voice of the population that matters.

15 hours ago, wsnydes said:

I've maintained for quite a while that given what Falvey was tasked with in rebuilding the organization from the ground up that he'll get plenty of time to do that.  I still think that's true, but I do think it's time that those evaluations of the full process can start to be made.  As such, I voted for him getting fired down the road, but wouldn't be surprised if it came in the next couple of years barring positive developments.

I'm willing to wait to judge the off-season as a whole until ST starts, but the moves this far aren't promising.  

 

They also inherited a nice core of players. As far as putting a competitive product on the field, most of the heavy lifting was already done. Aside from 2019 when seemingly everybody was having a career year, this FO hasn't done a great job supplementing that group, or bringing along the next wave as the current core phases out. 

I see the attendance issue popping up in this thread and I don't think that it should lead to Falvey/Levine going away. After his comments about being disappointed ain the attendance and saying the fans support is bad, Dave St. Peter should take the fall.

 

 

3 hours ago, lecroy24fan said:

Dave St. Peter should take the fall.

Maybe, but Mr. St. Peter has zero to do with players. He is nearly immune from dismissal as long as he keeps the money flowing.