"Stepping Back" Isn't an Option

[D.C Twins]

"They did this to themselves though"

Yes..... yes they did....

[JD-TWINS]

8 hours ago, Twinsoholic said:

Perhaps the Twins strategy will be to see where they rank in the Central Division in mid July and then, if competitive for 1st place, the Twins can make trades where they take on one or two or even three big contracts given their presumed surplus of salary room. If that is one approach the Twins are considering, then possibly trading Gray or Maeda could make sense if they receive an overpay (everyone wants pitching). 

WE WANT PITCHING!

Sign Eovaldi - sign Fulmer.

Going 40 - 45 at the All-Star break so we can make some trades because we have flexibility to take on salary that we should have been spending all along from the jump doesn’t make sense. Let’s sign a pitcher now - keep our in-house talent and try to be 47-38 at the break!!!

[tony&rodney]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

 I think the Twins were competitive till SF got desperate.

Quite a few people have mentioned the Giants as "desperate", "foolish", or "irresponsible. I can understand a fan that just didn't want Carlos Correa at shortstop for the Twins. I can't understand the Giant references. They have a fine shortstop (Crawford) who has one year left before his numbered is retired by the Giants. They also have one of top ranked shortstop prospects (Marco Luciano) in the game. The Giants won 107 games in 2021 and were devastated to only win 81 games last season. They always turn a profit and they are the only team in baseball that pays their own way without taxpayer support, as in they built their own stadium. The Giants have the best actuaries in baseball. They are smart and decisive, not desperate. Just saying.

[Mike Sixel]

They weren't desperate. They paid Turner, seager, money. That's the market. 

[Twinsoholic]

JD-Twins,

Eivaldi started 20 games last year and averaged just a fraction over 5 innings per start. He turned down a qualifying offer. How much do you think the Twins should pay him and for how many seasons? Look at what Swanson just signed for with the Cubs. The Twins may be better off waiting to see who is available through a trade or two. Just spending money on free agents guarantees nothing. Does anyone seriously think the numbers Correa put up last year justify the Twins topping what the Giants were willing to pay? The Twins offer itself was a huge overpay. It is great for.Correa and his family ghat the Giants were willing to give him that contract. Let’s check back in September and October over the next several seasons to see if Correa’s on-field performance is as spectacular as his new contract. Maybe it will be, and if that happens, good for him, and perhaps it can help wipe away some of the tarnish from the trashcan seasons. 
 

[tony&rodney]

18 minutes ago, Twinsoholic said:

Let’s check back in September and October

It might be a good idea to consider checking the attendance numbers as well. Fans still matter in baseball.

[Cap'n Piranha]

Completely disagree.  It’s time for a rebuild, and someone other than Falvine should be the architect.  They’ve had 7 off-seasons, 4 of which presented clear need for upgrades combined with clear payroll space, and the sum total of their moves is 4 years of Josh Donaldson (only 2 of which happened), and 1 year of Correa that was handed to them on a platter.  They’re never going to do what it takes to turn this team into a true contender, so I’d rather be done with them now.

[Major League Ready]

5 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

How has signing bad players worked? Like Happ, Shoemaker, et. al.? That doesn't work either.

Do you think anyone on the planet believes signing bad players is a good plan?   I am pretty sure you know this has absolutely no relevance to my point whatsoever.  Would they have been signing these players if they had developed a core that could contend.  They had to sign cheap players because they had needed several mediocre free agents just to fill out the roster.  Do you really want to debate that free agency can play anything more than a supplemental role at an average cost of $10M/WAR?  If you had actually stopped to consider what I said .... They would never even consider these players had they developed an adequate core.

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I am pretty sure you know this has absolutely no relevance to my point whatsoever.  Would they have been signing these players if they had developed a core that could contend.  They had to sign cheap players because they had needed several mediocre free agents just to fill out the roster.  Do you really want to debate that free agency can play anything more than a supplemental role at an average cost of $10M/WAR?  

No. I want them to sign one elite player, not three bad ones. I want them to supplement the team with a great player, not put bad filler on the roster. Or, take a chance on a Bassitt type, because I'd rather take a chance on Bassitt and a rookie, over Haap and Shoemaker type. 

[Major League Ready]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

No. I want them to sign one elite player, not three bad ones. I want them to supplement the team with a great player, not put bad filler on the roster. Or, take a chance on a Bassitt type, because I'd rather take a chance on Bassitt and a rookie, over Haap and Shoemaker type. 

Like when they signed Correa last year or when the Angels signed Ohtani.  It just does not matter with a core like Cleveland has put together.  How did they do it?  They traded away established players and got several ML ready prospects. 

[Mike Sixel]

12 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Like when they signed Correa last year or when the Angels signed Ohtani.  It just does not matter with a core like Cleveland has put together.  How did they do it?  They traded away established players and got several ML ready prospects. 

You keep arguing against the opposite of what I say. Over and over. You keep posting they should sign great players, then when I say that, you argue. I really don't get it. 

[tony&rodney]

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like Major League Ready wants the Twins to have a strong core developed from both within and through trades that brought in solid prospects to develop and then sign a difference maker. I believe MLR once referenced signing Rodon or had a design for the Phillies guy next offseason.

Mike is saying the same thing to some effect. The developed players should be supported by an actual difference maker like Correa as opposed to signing the same train of 3-4 mediocre players for $10 million each.

Polanco or Arraez are pretty good players. A trade for say Edward Cabrera and Max Meyer. Would Sonny Gray and Caleb Thielbar bring in a player like Masyn Wynn? 

Perhaps just as important is whether our management would put the young guys in the lineup and on the mound. It can happen.

Then again, maybe you both mean something totally different. I thought I would try to merge your ideas.

[Original_JB]

14 hours ago, Brandon said:

The team entered the offseason with few holes and a solid floor at most positions.  A C and SS are needed.  We got a solid C.  Not sure why we signed Gallo for 11 million….. but anyways we can find a good floor SS maybe Andrus or god forbid we sign Swanson.  I wonder if we are closing in on a trade with Miami involving Kepler and Lopez as part of the trade …..  anyways back on point.  The key for next season is better health.  We just need a SS and some tweaks for next season.  Yes we lost out on CC and 285 million was a low offer.  10/300 should have been the offer at minimum but the Twins did say from the beginning that they wouldn’t be the highest bidder.  With opt outs and what not may have given Correa protection against inflation running rampant.  I think the Twins were competitive till SF got desperate.  They were likely told Correa was about to sign with the Twins …. I wonder if Minnesota offered 10/305 or 310 if he would have signed a while back….

anyway the point is the Twins have a competitive roster if and it’s a big if they are mostly healthy. So they are not going backwards.  

But then you can't keep signing injured/history of injury/recovering from injury players and say "we just need to be healthy".

[DJL44]

14 hours ago, Twinsoholic said:

JD-Twins,

Eivaldi started 20 games last year and averaged just a fraction over 5 innings per start. 

Sounds like the prototypical Twins starting pitcher. I'm sure he's next. A Jean Segura signing will round out the offseason.

[The Mad King]

Honestly? I thought trading Berrios in 2021 was waving the white flag. If you're not going to keep your own home grown talent then you're just in a cycle of constant rebuilding. Might as well deal Maeda first. There's no guarantee he'll ever be 2020 Kenta again. Gray sands Mahle keep until the deadline. Obviously Joe Ryan will only be here until he hits free agency in a few years...

[Major League Ready]

12 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

You keep arguing against the opposite of what I say. Over and over. You keep posting they should sign great players, then when I say that, you argue. I really don't get it. 

Here are the differences in our positions conceptionally … You view free agency as a crucial element of success.  The angst over this on this site made me wonder just how big a role free agency has played in construction playoff teams with below average revenue.  I have studied almost every 90+ win team since 2000 and I know that free agents outside the parameters you insist are crucial have been far more important to winning than a big name free agent.  I also have learned that the overall impact is rather modest.  Therefore, my desire to sign big free agents is situational while you are extremely invested in signing them no matter the circumstances. 

There were only 4 players that interested me because I knew Correa and turner would get a deal that did not make sense for the twins.  Vazquez and Narvaez and of course they signed Vazquez.  Then, I thought there was a chance Bogaerts would go for a reason sum.  I was wrong.  The last one was Rodon.  Supporting for Rodon would need to be validated as much as possible by medicals.  I know the risks but I would opt for the risk associated with Rodon for 6 years over the virtually inevitable failure for the last several years of any SS for the ages 35-41.   

They got one of the 4 and one of those were redundant.  No way would I give Bogearts $280M and when a player wants to go the Yankees, we are not getting them.  So, the difference is I look at the entire situation and accept we were not getting Rodon away from the Yankees and I don’t want Bogaerts or Correa at those contracts and you get bent out of shape because we did not sign a big name regardless of the circumstances. 
 

BTW ... There was one significant contract in the entire AL central and the White Sox traded away Hendricks in order to afford that contract.  Demonstrating once again the rarity of these contracts in below average revenue teams and the limitations of relying on free agency.

[se7799]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Here are the differences in our positions conceptionally … You view free agency as a crucial element of success.  The angst over this on this site made me wonder just how big a role free agency has played in construction playoff teams with below average revenue.  I have studied almost every 90+ win team since 2000 and I know that free agents outside the parameters you insist are crucial have been far more important to winning than a big name free agent.  I also have learned that the overall impact is rather modest.  Therefore, my desire to sign big free agents is situational while you are extremely invested in signing them no matter the circumstances. 

There were only 4 players that interested me because I knew Correa and turner would get a deal that did not make sense for the twins.  Vazquez and Narvaez and of course they signed Vazquez.  Then, I thought there was a chance Bogaerts would go for a reason sum.  I was wrong.  The last one was Rodon.  Supporting for Rodon would need to be validated as much as possible by medicals.  I know the risks but I would opt for the risk associated with Rodon for 6 years over the virtually inevitable failure for the last several years of any SS for the ages 35-41.   

They got one of the 4 and one of those were redundant.  No way would I give Bogearts $280M and when a player wants to go the Yankees, we are not getting them.  So, the difference is I look at the entire situation and accept we were not getting Rodon away from the Yankees and I don’t want Bogaerts or Correa at those contracts and you get bent out of shape because we did not sign a big name regardless of the circumstances. 
 

BTW ... There was one significant contract in the entire AL central and the White Sox traded away Hendricks in order to afford that contract.  Demonstrating once again the rarity of these contracts in below average revenue teams and the limitations of relying on free agency.

I totally missed Hendricks being traded.  Wow..what did they get in return.  I can't find it.

[Major League Ready]

8 minutes ago, se7799 said:

I totally missed Hendricks being traded.  Wow..what did they get in return.  I can't find it.

I saw this on MLB TV but I can't find an official announcement.  It's might have been a rumor.  All I could find was articles saying the Sox have made him available. Liam Hendricks Trade   My apologies, I may have misinterpreted as I had this on in the background.  We will have to see if this happens.

[se7799]

5 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I saw this on MLB TV but I can't find an official announcement.  It's might have been a rumor.  All I could find was articles saying the Sox have made him available. Liam Hendricks Trade   My apologies, I may have misinterpreted as I had this on in the background.  We will have to see if this happens.

No worries.  Thanks for sharing.

[weitz41]

IDK why but this seems pretty simple to me. Creating fan support requires buzz. Yeah know, like last season. We got who to play SS? Now we've lost out on Correa. Ok, I can live with that. But get a few other guys to excite the fan base! Gallo...on a 1 years deal...Bad enough we've moved on from Sano who we've all rooted for at one point or another. MTB trade rumors says we're interested in Turner and Pollack..An hour later Turner signs with the Red Sox...6 years in and now we're looking at a likely reset? I'm 6 year's into my current employment. If I stop doing my job, I don't make year 7....the FO job is to win games, fill the stands and create buzz. i.e....excitement...Not succeeding, are you?

You do realize you are in the entertainment industry?

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

I agree with you Cody.  No way we can step back.  We have too many prospects ready to contribute to the stable of veterans we have.

I say we try to add a ST if possible (Eovoldi, or a trade e.g. Kep+ for Lopez), add a RP like Fulmer, ride Farmer awaiting Lewis/Lee, and give it another year at minimum.  If it blows up then maybe step back at the deadline or next off season.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

I agree with you Cody.  No way we can step back.  We have too many prospects ready to contribute to the stable of veterans we have.

I say we try to add a ST if possible (Eovoldi, or a trade e.g. Kep+ for Lopez), add a RP like Fulmer, ride Farmer awaiting Lewis/Lee, and give it another year at minimum.  If it blows up then maybe step back at the deadline or next off season.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

I agree with you Cody.  No way we can step back.  We have too many prospects ready to contribute to the stable of veterans we have.

I say we try to add a ST if possible (Eovoldi, or a trade e.g. Kep+ for Lopez), add a RP like Fulmer, ride Farmer awaiting Lewis/Lee, and give it another year at minimum.  If it blows up then maybe step back at the deadline or next off season.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

Sorry for the repeat posts.  It did not look like it was updating so I clicked submit multiple times

[MGM4706]

Be careful. This is kind of a negative article and the monitors of this site have started suspending people who say anything negative about their beloved Twins!

[dxpavelka]

Avoid injuries.  Problem solved.

[Peter]

I think the twins are 1-3 years away. We have great lineup. Once Lewis gets back and lee is on team infield looks great. As well outfield. Definitely need to get another starter this year. Despite last season being most frustrating ever twins played over their heads. Losing all those games to Cleveland made difference not winning division. I don’t think the twins can afford to go into rebuild. There’s to much at stake. Unlike others on here I’ll support the twins no matter what win or lose. Let’s just hope they have competitive team! Realistic I expect 70-78 wins but hopefully 82 wins as that’s winning record and season 

[FanSince1961]

Step back?  How much lower do they want to go?

Cellar?  Subbasement?  I mean really.

[tony&rodney]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:37 AM, Peter said:

I think the twins are 1-3 years away.

This is a mantra.