That’s it. I’m pretty much done with this front office.

[ashbury]

38 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Look at the dreck we sent to the AFL.

You can't lay all of that on the FO.  You and I went of our own accord.

[Mike Sixel]

I think your anger is misplaced. Regardless of the GM, this team does not sign elite players, other than Donaldson, whom they traded after two years. I'm pretty sure that isn't on the GM. 

That said, the idea it is somehow better to trade prospects for pitching than sign it seems off for a team that refuses to sign great players. Your only chance is to develop them.....

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

We all knew this is what it would take to get Correa the moment Turner received $300m. By the time Boegarts signed for $280m, every reasonable person understood that Correa's contract number would start with a "3".

So why didn't the front office understand what we all knew as casual bystanders? They never made an offer of $300m or more. So why'd they think they had a shot at Correa?

Maybe (probably) ownership was never ever going to let them make an offer that started with a 3.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, Parfigliano said:

Maybe (probably) ownership was never ever going to let them make an offer that started with a 3.

Then they shouldn't have wasted their time. That's my core point here. If they're not going to offer Correa enough money to get him to sign here, then they should have been signing the likes of Willson Contreras a week ago.

[Parfigliano]

5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Then they shouldn't have wasted their time. That's my core point here. If they're not going to offer Correa enough money to get him to sign here, then they should have been signing the likes of Willson Contreras a week ago.

Totally agree.

[Deadfan]

1 hour ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Its not a reasonable contract Brock.  I think if there was an issue in this case is they underestimated Boras and the giants willing to make an outlandish offer.  Our only chance at signing him went out the door when the Yankees signed Judge.   

I am not sure how you can be done with this front office when there are 22 other teams in the same boat as us.  If you aren't a New York, Texas, California team  or the Cubs or to a certain extent the cardinals it is very difficult to compete in free agency.  

My other concern is we did a bunch of trades to try to appease Correa.  Most of the trades I was OK with,  I am still concerned the Mahle trade is going to come back and bite us.  We need him to be a strong #2 to a low end #1 to make that trade pay off.  

I still think this front office has gotten more done than any other previous management team.  We have actually signed some high end players,  so I am happy with that.  

I just have no idea where you are going to spend the money this year.  Give a high AAV to Syndergaard to try to recoup and trade.  With Rodon being a boras agent I think we just need to move on.  Then its a question do we go with our prospects or do we sign Dansby.   

We are in such a better situation than any time in the early 2000's and their draft philosophy looks better as well.   

 

I think we here in MN (and especially ownership) really need to adjust what "reasonable" means in 2022 and beyond. Inflation is real, and its raising prices (and hopefully pay!) for us common folk. Why would Professional athletes also expect a raise? What used to be "ridiculous" contracts are now common place. We either need to adapt, or die. Money doesnt go as far as it used to. this applies to us as well as the superstars. 

[Mike Sixel]

On the other hand, the longer they are in control, and the further we get from the previous regime and their players, the worse the team is ...... So maybe you are right, Brock.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

41 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Then they shouldn't have wasted their time. That's my core point here. If they're not going to offer Correa enough money to get him to sign here, then they should have been signing the likes of Willson Contreras a week ago.

Not sure where you stood on a deadline in that other thread a week or so back Brock, but I mentioned in that thread that a deadline should be set and lots of folks said that we should never do that as we can and should do BOTH (pursuing CC and signing others) at the same time.  I highly doubted that logic as I felt due to the large $ that CC needed, we were hamstrung until he made his decision.  I'm just glad he made it now and did not wait until January.

I do still like this FO and believe we should at least wait until early February before criticizing their off-season moves.

[DocBauer]

Repeating what I said in another thread, I'm mostly upset with myself for believing there was an actual chance. I knew the moment he signed last year he was opting out and was almost certainly gone. But when nobody jumped in with some crazy offer and I saw the Twins at 10yrs and $285M with opt outs giving Correa all the power he could ever want, I really thought there was a chance. I don't think the Twins offer was unreasonable or low-ball in any way.

And THEN I saw what others were signing for and just knew this wasn't going to turn out well.

I'm not upset at the Twins offer. On the contrary, it was a HUGE and fair initial offer. All the terms and AAV were right there with Boegarts and Turner. But I DO AGREE that once things got under way, the offer should have started with a "3". Now, that doesn't mean $350! And yes, we can argue and debate all we want to about how much the Twins could spend if they wanted to, etc, and beat that dead horse. But I see no way they would ever spend $350M on someone. Frankly, I don't know if I can think of anyone other than about 5-6 teams that would or could. 

But I ALSO AGREE with the basic principle that once things looked like they were going to get crazy, time to just pull out, pivot, and get to building your team the best you can. Actually, it's very early in the offseason. It's still something like 2 full months until ST starts. BUT, unlike most years, everyone has decided to make offers and sign early instead of waiting. So it being "early" doesn't offer any excuses.

I actually like most of what the current FO has done from re-building the system from the ground up, to a majority of their draft selections, and even a number of trades and signings. But where they started to lose my trust was last offseason when the market was ripe with opportunity to add and all we came away with was Bundy, Archer, and Smith before Correa dropped in to our laps. And now, this offseason, waiting around while the baseball world passes them by, has me losing additional faith in them.

I haven't lost all faith. I'm not asking them to be removed. But my confidence has been slipping beginning last offseason and continues to slip. 

[Vanimal46]

Falvey and Levine have dug themselves into a hole and I don’t know how they’re going to get out of it. If the goal is to compete and win a weak AL Central division, we’ll have to deplete the farm system further making 2 or more trades for MLB talent. If the Twins are closer to rebuilding, they haven’t shown a reason why they should be the ones to take on rebuild #2. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

Not sure where you stood on a deadline in that other thread a week or so back Brock, but I mentioned in that thread that a deadline should be set and lots of folks said that we should never do that as we can and should do BOTH (pursuing CC and signing others) at the same time.  I highly doubted that logic as I felt due to the large $ that CC needed, we were hamstrung until he made his decision.  I'm just glad he made it now and did not wait until January.

I do still like this FO and believe we should at least wait until early February before criticizing their off-season moves.

I’m pretty sure I didn’t see that deadline topic.

If the Twins made a competitive offer and didn’t land Correa, I’d be less angry with the front office. There are loads of reasons any specific player doesn’t sign with a specific team.

But the Twins weren’t close. They were outbid by $65m. They never offered Correa even $300m, which we all knew damned well he was going to get somewhere.

So they weren’t actually in on Correa. Which means they spent the past ten days wasting a ton of opportunities to improve the 2023 team. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

Falvey and Levine have dug themselves into a hole and I don’t know how they’re going to get out of it. If the goal is to compete and win a weak AL Central division, we’ll have to deplete the farm system further making 2 or more trades for MLB talent. If the Twins are closer to rebuilding, they haven’t shown a reason why they should be the ones to take on rebuild #2. 

This. They drafted two guys in round one that weren't valuable enough to trade for a RP within two years of drafting them. That's hard to do. They've refused to use money on pitching, preferring to trade prospects. Eventually, you run out of prospects.....

[USAFChief]

21 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

On the other hand, the longer they are in control, and the further we get from the previous regime and their players, the worse the team is ...... So maybe you are right, Brock.

The talent in the  organization has slowly but consistently eroded since 2019.

They've been on the wrong side of way too many decisions, in every area. Trades, free agency, drafts. Coaching staffs. 

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I’m pretty sure I didn’t see that deadline topic.

If the Twins made a competitive offer and didn’t land Correa, I’d be less angry with the front office. There are loads of reasons any specific player doesn’t sign with a specific team.

But the Twins weren’t close. They were outbid by $65m. They never offered Correa even $300m, which we all knew damned well he was going to get somewhere.

So they weren’t actually in on Correa. Which means they spent the past ten days wasting a ton of opportunities to improve the 2023 team. 

Sorry, should have provided the link... 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

If they are a 90 loss team without Correa we have much bigger problems than not signing Correa.

Isn't that kind of the point, how long has this FO been here and staring at a 4th bad year in 6 years, and one of the good ones was the short sprint Covid. Hey if there would have been a big enough COVID outbreak and they shut the year down after 60 games they would have been in the playoffs last year as well.

[KirbyDome89]

15 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Isn't that kind of the point, how long has this FO been here and staring at a 4th bad year in 6 years, and one of the good ones was the short sprint Covid. Hey if there would have been a big enough COVID outbreak and they shut the year down after 60 games they would have been in the playoffs last year as well.

The Twins would've been division champs after 60 games last year, which highlights just how much stock we should put into the 2020 season. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

I have been a defender of the Front Office since they started, largely because the on-field product improved markedly and immediately upon their arrival.  That said, the last two years have been disheartening, and the past two offseasons especially so.  My thoughts, in no particular order;

1. Payroll flexibility is only a positive thing if you eventually use it.  If I walk into a mall to buy a gift for my wife, and keep walking out of stores because the value isn't there, my wife is going to be very upset on Christmas morning when I tell her that her gift is and empty box and my resolute ability to avoid overpaying.
2. This offseason can still be won, but will require immediately landing Rodon and Swanson on matching 6yr/$180M.  Given the Twins (apparently) never even offered Correa, whom they loved, $300M...no chance that happens.  The offseason is salvageable if they get one of those contracts done.  If they get neither done, then it is 3 straight complete and total whiffs.
3. If your plan is to be so good at drafting and developing talent that you can fill out your roster with enough excess to still trade for key players to put you over the top, that's fine.  But you have to actually be able to do that, and to date, Falvine have not proven they can do it.  For a long time, they could hide behind youth of draft classes, and unlucky injuries.  But now we're 6 years in.  The grace period is over.
4. Other posters are saying they don't blame the Twins for the Correa situation.  I do.  The Twins can absolutely afford 13/$350M, they consciously chose not to do it.  The Twins have no large incremental outlays on the horizon for at least 3-4 years, by which point the payroll should be closer to $160M to $170M.  Given the difference in tax rates (100ish games at 12.3% CA tax with SF, as opposed to 81 at 9.85% MN tax), the Twins probably didn't need to get to $350M to be money neutral.  According to Forbes (whose data appears to be potentially out of date), Correa would pay $2.4M in CA tax for the 100 or so games he plays in CA.  It's not apples to apples, but for the 81 games he plays in MN, his state tax bill is $1.4M.  Any way you cut it, especially when you consider how much more expensive SF is than TC, it probably costs an extra $1M to $1.5M a year to live in SF.  Given that, 13/$335M should have been enough to get it done.

[chpettit19]

I think the FO has done a lot of really great things. I think they dug the team out of the dark ages and brought it into the new world. They setup an actual analytics department. They upgraded technology and training practices. They changed the style of play to a modern one. They changed the type of player they went after (no more contact oriented pitchers!). They built a nice base for the baseball ops to work from. But I think I've lost my faith in their ability to build a competitive major league team. I'll give them to the end of the offseason, but it's not looking promising.

Is it Falvey and Levine? Is it just Levine? Just Falvey? They seem to have tied themselves to each other in the public sphere, but what's it like behind the scenes? Who's in charge of making the decisions when it comes to actually acquiring players? Who's in charge of assessing the FA market and determining realistic contracts (I know there's crazy amounts of difference on these boards in where FA $ will land, but any major league team that thought they were getting Correa for 40 mil less than Seager should fire whoever is in charge of their contract estimating)? Who's in charge of determining how quickly they make decisions and negotiate? What do their predicted contracts look like for other guys they've passed on? Were they as far off as they seem to be on their more public negotiations?

I think this FO is ok. I don't think they're terrible. I don't think they're great. I think they're ok. But I'm really sick of "ok" being good enough. They did a great job modernizing the Twins organization. There's a risk that moving on from them means you get a worse FO, but I'm struggling to see any reason for faith that they can ever turn this team into a championship contender. They seem to have stuck themselves in a real bad situation with short contracts for aging vets and too many question marks on the viability of the new young core. Not all their fault (hard to predict Kirilloff and Lewis having back to back lost seasons due to the same injury), but they seem to still be really hesitant, and questioning, with their plans. I wouldn't be upset with a change of leadership.

[Riverbrian]

I never expected them to sign Correa so I feel no need to be disappointed or upset. 

Correa was gone in my mind after game 162.

I'm in the same place. What's Next. 

 

[IndianaTwin]

Opening Day isn't until March 30, folks. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

8 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I think the FO has done a lot of really great things. I think they dug the team out of the dark ages and brought it into the new world. They setup an actual analytics department. They upgraded technology and training practices. They changed the style of play to a modern one. They changed the type of player they went after (no more contact oriented pitchers!). They built a nice base for the baseball ops to work from. But I think I've lost my faith in their ability to build a competitive major league team. I'll give them to the end of the offseason, but it's looking promising.

Is it Falvey and Levine? Is it just Levine? Just Falvey? They seem to have tied themselves to each other in the public sphere, but what's it like behind the scenes? Who's in charge of making the decisions when it comes to actually acquiring players? Who's in charge of assessing the FA market and determining realistic contracts (I know there's crazy amounts of difference on these boards in where FA $ will land, but any major league team that thought they were getting Correa for 40 mil less than Seager should fire whoever is in charge of their contract estimating)? Who's in charge of determining how quickly they make decisions and negotiate? What do their predicted contracts look like for other guys they've passed on? Were they as far off as they seem to be on their more public negotiations?

I think this FO is ok. I don't think they're terrible. I don't think they're great. I think they're ok. But I'm really sick of "ok" being good enough. They did a great job modernizing the Twins organization. There's a risk that moving on from them means you get a worse FO, but I'm struggling to see any reason for faith that they can ever turn this team into a championship contender. They seem to have stuck themselves in a real bad situation with short contracts for aging vets and too many question marks on the viability of the new young core. Not all their fault (hard to predict Kirilloff and Lewis having back to back lost seasons due to the same injury), but they seem to still be really hesitant, and questioning, with their plans. I wouldn't be upset with a change of leadership.

I agree with your first paragraph.  The problem is that when Falvine took over after 2016, only 6-10 teams weren't in the dark ages, and over the past 6 years, only 6-10 teams (at most) haven't gotten out of the dark ages.  The improvements they made are commendable, but it's not good enough if it's the same improvements a third to half of the rest of the league were also making.  Until such time as the Twins are going to be actual players in free agency from time to time, the FO is going to have to be distinctly better than 20-25 other FOs.  I don't currently see the evidence that Falvey and Levine meet that standard.

[Cap'n Piranha]

6 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

Opening Day isn't until March 30, folks. 

Opening day could be May 30, if the pool of available talent is dry, it's dry.  There are two impact players left, and only two, that don't require a massive outflux of talent that the current Twins system doesn't really have.

[Original_JB]

Gotta be honest, if you're giving the luxury of hindsight, I never would have agreed to the original deal with all the opt-outs. Best player on the planet or not, the Twins FO/ownership let themselves be played because A. they kicked the can down the road on what to do at SS until Lewis heals up, and B. Got to claim "Look we ARE willing to spend a lot of money (on a short deal)", and "Biggest Twins contract EVER!!! (for one year)". If they weren't able to come to an extension agreement before the end of the season (and really, as a Boras client, has that EVER happened?) they should have been off the Correa train the day he opted out anyway.

[KirbyDome89]

My frustration started to grow in 2021. Obviously watching a terrible team isn't fun, but more than losing games, it was the head scratching decisions - refusing to move off Shoemaker and Happ (honestly committing 2 separate rotation spots to them in the first place) until it was beyond obvious they were toast. Ditto for Colome. The pen itself was a turnstile of washed vets and never has beens. Continuing to play Simmons at SS late in the year and not giving Gordon regular ABs until they had no choice. The Randy Dobnak experiment blew up in their face. It was everything this team was supposed to have moved on from. 

When 2022 became known as the "developmental year," in the offseason I was out. The "pipeline," became a meme, and it was deja vu on the pitching side. 

[Mike Vendsel]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

If they are a 90 loss team without Correa we have much bigger problems than not signing Correa.

Likely closer to a 100 loss team as they stand. 

[nicksaviking]

I'm less disappointed in not getting Correa than I am in how badly they got played by Boras. 

The Twins COULD have beat the Bogaerts deal as evidenced by the contract they offered Correa, but Boras purposefully had Bogaerts sign first so he could use the Twins to get a better deal for Correa. They should have seen through Boras' platitudes about them being real contenders and swimming in the ocean with the big boys. The Twins should have told him they were out on Correa from the onset and that they wanted the second best shortstop instead.

[FrankQuilicy]

I dont fault them for not matching that offer to Correa. 13 years was asinine but... Have you ever met someone you just didn't like and you could mot explain why? After 6+ years i never liked Falvey OR Levine. After careful contemplation i think i now know why. Its because they come across as they are so much smarter than everybody( fans, media, other executives, players). When really all they are, are two boys in a Man's world. This is the first real responsibility they've ever had aside from carrying francona's bags and kissing jon Daniel's butt. No wonder the reds, a's and everybody else licks their chops when they come calling about a trade. Billy Beane outclasses them so bad.  What a joke.

[FrankQuilicy]

32 minutes ago, Original_JB said:

Gotta be honest, if you're giving the luxury of hindsight, I never would have agreed to the original deal with all the opt-outs. Best player on the planet or not, the Twins FO/ownership let themselves be played because A. they kicked the can down the road on what to do at SS until Lewis heals up, and B. Got to claim "Look we ARE willing to spend a lot of money (on a short deal)", and "Biggest Twins contract EVER!!! (for one year)". If they weren't able to come to an extension agreement before the end of the season (and really, as a Boras client, has that EVER happened?) they should have been off the Correa train the day he opted out anyway.

Lewis with one torn ACL was never gonna be the answer at short. Now he definitely isn't.

[DJL44]

Remember how the Twins needed the increased revenue from Target Field to be able to sign free agents?

[FrankQuilicy]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

I have been a defender of the Front Office since they started, largely because the on-field product improved markedly and immediately upon their arrival.  That said, the last two years have been disheartening, and the past two offseasons especially so.  My thoughts, in no particular order;

1. Payroll flexibility is only a positive thing if you eventually use it.  If I walk into a mall to buy a gift for my wife, and keep walking out of stores because the value isn't there, my wife is going to be very upset on Christmas morning when I tell her that her gift is and empty box and my resolute ability to avoid overpaying.
2. This offseason can still be won, but will require immediately landing Rodon and Swanson on matching 6yr/$180M.  Given the Twins (apparently) never even offered Correa, whom they loved, $300M...no chance that happens.  The offseason is salvageable if they get one of those contracts done.  If they get neither done, then it is 3 straight complete and total whiffs.
3. If your plan is to be so good at drafting and developing talent that you can fill out your roster with enough excess to still trade for key players to put you over the top, that's fine.  But you have to actually be able to do that, and to date, Falvine have not proven they can do it.  For a long time, they could hide behind youth of draft classes, and unlucky injuries.  But now we're 6 years in.  The grace period is over.
4. Other posters are saying they don't blame the Twins for the Correa situation.  I do.  The Twins can absolutely afford 13/$350M, they consciously chose not to do it.  The Twins have no large incremental outlays on the horizon for at least 3-4 years, by which point the payroll should be closer to $160M to $170M.  Given the difference in tax rates (100ish games at 12.3% CA tax with SF, as opposed to 81 at 9.85% MN tax), the Twins probably didn't need to get to $350M to be money neutral.  According to Forbes (whose data appears to be potentially out of date), Correa would pay $2.4M in CA tax for the 100 or so games he plays in CA.  It's not apples to apples, but for the 81 games he plays in MN, his state tax bill is $1.4M.  Any way you cut it, especially when you consider how much more expensive SF is than TC, it probably costs an extra $1M to $1.5M a year to live in SF.  Given that, 13/$335M should have been enough to get it done.

I still am not over how they deliberately tried to destroy the 2017 season and then successfully destroyed the entire 2018 season. Paul Molitor deserved way better than that