That’s it. I’m pretty much done with this front office.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don’t even blame them for not landing Correa… well, not entirely. But it’s one more thing that doesn’t look good for them.

I’m tired of trading for injured pitchers.

I’m tired of the lack of pitching development.

I’m tired of them disliking long contracts more than they like good players.

I’m tired of them not getting “their guy” and instead pivoting, pivoting, and pivoting again.

I simply don’t see many reasons to keep them around anymore. They’re not exceptional at anything and have significant flaws. 

[wabene]

After trading many prospects they are painting themselves into a corner where they have to go free agency or bust. I will wait to watch this unfold for the rest of this off-season. 

[Azviking101]

If it’s a disaster once again this season then yeah, it’ll be beyond time to move on. We’ll see what damage they’ll do this year though  

[Squirrel]

They could have landed Correa by matching the money. I'm not sure the years mattered, although I wouldn't want a 13 yr contract. Then again, that could be rectified, too, in the end.

[Vanimal46]

Preach it. The books have never been cleaner to lock in one long term contract. All of this talk over the years about financial flexibility… It’s only used for 1 + option year contracts for mid tier free agents. 

There’s still time to salvage the offseason, but as things stand on December 14, this is another 90 loss team. 

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don’t even blame them for not landing Correa… well, not entirely. But it’s one more thing that doesn’t look good for them.

I’m tired of trading for injured pitchers.

I’m tired of the lack of pitching development.

I’m tired of them disliking long contracts more than they like good players.

I’m tired of them not getting “their guy” and instead pivoting, pivoting, and pivoting again.

I simply don’t see many reasons to keep them around anymore. They’re not exceptional at anything and have significant flaws. 

With the constant pivoting what they end up doing is going in circles.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Parfigliano said:

With the constant pivoting what they end up doing is going in circles.

Easier to pat each other on the back that way, I suppose.

[Rigby]

But....but they landed Jose De Leon AND Patrick Murphy. How soon we forget......

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, Rigby said:

But....but they landed Jose De Leon AND Patrick Murphy. How soon we forget......

ouch

[Nine of twelve]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don’t even blame them for not landing Correa… well, not entirely. But it’s one more thing that doesn’t look good for them.

I’m tired of trading for injured pitchers.

I’m tired of the lack of pitching development.

I’m tired of them disliking long contracts more than they like good players.

I’m tired of them not getting “their guy” and instead pivoting, pivoting, and pivoting again.

I simply don’t see many reasons to keep them around anymore. They’re not exceptional at anything and have significant flaws. 

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I would like you tell us what you would have done differently during the last couple months had you been Falvey and/or Levine. You even have the benefit of hindsight to guide you. I ask that you do try to put yourself in the mindset that you are handling hundreds of thousands of real dollars, not fantasy league dollars. I'm truly curious to see how you would have handled the last couple months.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, Nine of twelve said:

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I would like you tell us what you would have done differently during the last couple months had you been Falvey and/or Levine. You even have the benefit of hindsight to guide you. I ask that you do try to put yourself in the mindset that you are handling hundreds of thousands of real dollars, not fantasy league dollars. I'm truly curious to see how you would have handled the last couple months.

The moment Turner went for $300m, I would have gone to ownership and said "we either need to offer Correa $325m RIGHT NOW or we need to bow out and pursue other players while they are available".

Yet ~10 days after Turner went off the board, the Twins hadn't (and never did) offer Correa even Turner's contract.

[Nine of twelve]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The moment Turner went for $300m, I would have gone to ownership and said "we either need to offer Correa $325m RIGHT NOW or we need to bow out and pursue other players while they are available".

Yet ~10 days after Turner went off the board, the Twins hadn't (and never did) offer Correa even Turner's contract.

Fair enough. So then which other players would you have pursued who are not available now?

[Nashvilletwin]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

They’re not exceptional at anything and have significant flaws. 

The truth.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

Fair enough. So then which other players would you have pursued who are not available now?

Dunno, depends on availability but I would have at least considered Contreras, Taillon, Haniger, and a few others.

[Nine of twelve]

My last question assumes Correa would have turned down the $325, which I expect would have happened since the Giants beat that offer by $25M.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, Nine of twelve said:

My last question assumes Correa would have turned down the $325, which I expect would have happened since the Giants beat that offer by $25M.

But $325m gets you to the table in real negotiations. The fact that the Twins were off by more than $60m made it a pretty easy decision for Carlos.

[IA Bean Counter]

2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

But $325m gets you to the table in real negotiations. The fact that the Twins were off by more than $60m made it a pretty easy decision for Carlos.

Its not a reasonable contract Brock.  I think if there was an issue in this case is they underestimated Boras and the giants willing to make an outlandish offer.  Our only chance at signing him went out the door when the Yankees signed Judge.   

I am not sure how you can be done with this front office when there are 22 other teams in the same boat as us.  If you aren't a New York, Texas, California team  or the Cubs or to a certain extent the cardinals it is very difficult to compete in free agency.  

My other concern is we did a bunch of trades to try to appease Correa.  Most of the trades I was OK with,  I am still concerned the Mahle trade is going to come back and bite us.  We need him to be a strong #2 to a low end #1 to make that trade pay off.  

I still think this front office has gotten more done than any other previous management team.  We have actually signed some high end players,  so I am happy with that.  

I just have no idea where you are going to spend the money this year.  Give a high AAV to Syndergaard to try to recoup and trade.  With Rodon being a boras agent I think we just need to move on.  Then its a question do we go with our prospects or do we sign Dansby.   

We are in such a better situation than any time in the early 2000's and their draft philosophy looks better as well.   

[Nashvilletwin]

15 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

But $325m gets you to the table in real negotiations. The fact that the Twins were off by more than $60m made it a pretty easy decision for Carlos.

But Brock’s point is that it is not just about Correa. This FO, outside of one year (a really good year where a juiced ball matched their Bomba strategy), haven’t really done much. Please, spare us the comments re the COVID year. And there is not one playoff game win, let alone a series.  That’s failing. Plain and simple - failing.

Sure, they’ve had some wins - the Gray and Ryan trades look good and Nelson Cruz was an inspired pickup (love the Vasquez deal too). And, yes, there were injuries,  But there have been just as many poor trades and bad FAs.  Player development - from the minors and into the majors - has been ok at best.  A small/mid market team like the Twins can’t afford to be just ok in player development. Sano and Kepler have rotted since ‘19. 

It really seems like CC was an all or nothing strategy. Get Swanson and there’s a glimmer. In any event, this FO, and this coaching staff, have not proven they are a good match for a franchise like the Twins.

 

 

[RJA]

Fantastic post.  Everyone, and I mean everyone, knew it would take more than 300 million to land Correa.  If they knew they were not willing to go to 300 million, why in the world wait around while top names sign elsewhere only to sigh and say, we were in the hunt?  This FO think they are the smartest guys in the room.  The difference between how smart they think they are and how smart they really are is profound.  They say they want to build from within and then trade away a bunch of prospects.  Then they pursue Correa knowing they will never pay what is requrired while the quality free agents go off the board.  Now we are back in the Wheeler situation, "pivoting" to someone who is still available to make them look good.   BTW in 10 years, 28 million will be closer to 18-19 million in todays dollars, and payrolls will be much, much higher meaning he would not have been a big drag in those last years.  Sad, truly sad.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Its not a reasonable contract Brock.  I think if there was an issue in this case is they underestimated Boras and the giants willing to make an outlandish offer.  Our only chance at signing him went out the door when the Yankees signed Judge.

We all knew this is what it would take to get Correa the moment Turner received $300m. By the time Boegarts signed for $280m, every reasonable person understood that Correa's contract number would start with a "3".

So why didn't the front office understand what we all knew as casual bystanders? They never made an offer of $300m or more. So why'd they think they had a shot at Correa?

[USAFChief]

Correa is just one data point.

 

Falvine have been on the wrong side of way too many transactions. Too many times over their tenure, particularly the last 3 or 4 years, the Twins end up on the short end of the deal. Trades, drafts, free agents done or not done. 

It's been a slow but persistent lowering of talent since the 2019 team, which they get only a portion of credit for. 

The list of downgrades and/or mistakes is too long for me. To the point where they put themselves in a position of NEEDING to give Christian Vasquez 3/$30--a bigger overpay than Correa. Needing pitching EVERY offseason because they're constantly on 1 or 2 year deals for questionable talent. Trading for obvious injury risks. Never a middle of the order since 2019.  The current minor league system is a wasteland. Look at the dreck we sent to the AFL. Etc etc etc.

Time for new blood. They're a failure.

[IA Bean Counter]

6 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

We all knew this is what it would take to get Correa the moment Turner received $300m. By the time Boegarts signed for $280m, every reasonable person understood that Correa's contract number would start with a "3".

So why didn't the front office understand what we all knew as casual bystanders? They never made an offer of $300m or more. So why'd they think they had a shot at Correa?

I disagree.  No other team was willing to spend that on Correa . . .  other than the Giants.  You only need one team and in this case the Giants increased the bid.  Its why I said all along we wanted the Giants to get Judge,  because I don't think the Yankees are interested in Correa at all for a variety of reasons.   

[Eris]

I do agree with the comments. I think misreading the playoff prospects for the Twins last season and being buyers of ineffective or soon to be injured pitchers rather than sellers at the trade deadline is also on the FO. 

[Dave Overlund]

The part that frustrates me about this front office is that they seem to think that they dictate the market and that their philosophies are proven to be best when that hasn’t been proven out with the results. 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

I disagree.  No other team was willing to spend that on Correa . . .  other than the Giants.  You only need one team and in this case the Giants increased the bid.  Its why I said all along we wanted the Giants to get Judge,  because I don't think the Yankees are interested in Correa at all for a variety of reasons.   

Oh, I don't believe this at all. The Twins supposedly offered $285m. I almost guarantee the Yankees and Cubs - and possibly others - would have matched or beaten that offer.

It wasn't just the Giants and Twins. Other teams were laying in wait and I'm nearly 100% certain at least one of them would have easily beaten $285m.

[IA Bean Counter]

4 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Oh, I don't believe this at all. The Twins supposedly offered $285m. I almost guarantee the Yankees and Cubs - and possibly others - would have matched or beaten that offer.

It wasn't just the Giants and Twins. Other teams were laying in wait and I'm nearly 100% certain at least one of them would have easily beaten $285m.

The Cubs didn't make an offer on Correa at all.  We were the high offer prior to the Giants.  You can say someone would have come out of the weeds but you are just speculating.  No one came out last year for Correa?  Is that correct or not?  Although,  has we offered 300 million last year, we likely would have signed him.  That was the number he was looking for.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

The Cubs didn't make an offer on Correa all.  We were the high offer prior to the Giants.  You can say someone would have come out of the weeds but you are just speculating.  No one came out last year for Correa?  Is that correct or not?  Although,  has we offered 300 million last year, we likely would have signed him.  That was the number he was looking for.  

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. In a world where four shortstops have signed $280m+ in the past 12 months, it was quite clear Correa was going to get more than $300m.

All one has to do is look around and see what the likes of Judge, deGrom, Verlander, et al signed for to see what the market was for Correa.

And that's backed up by the obvious evidence of Correa literally getting $350m from a team.

[IA Bean Counter]

4 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. In a world where four shortstops have signed $280m+ in the past 12 months, it was quite clear Correa was going to get more than $300m.

All one has to do is look around and see what the likes of Judge, deGrom, Verlander, et al signed for to see what the market was for Correa.

And that's backed up by the obvious evidence of Correa literally getting $350m from a team.

You are ignoring that the Yankess, Red Sox and and Dodgers would not touch him due to the 2017 cheating scandal.  You also have that he has a much more glaring injury history with his back than any other team.  We can agree to disagree,  Last year a 300 mil offer went for a shortstop,  which the offer was not given to Correa.  I think if we signed him it would have been in the 300 mil range,  but another suitor came forth that wanted him more.  It is what is.  

[ashbury]

I've been on record, I don't remember when but well before the end of last season, that regime change should be on the table.

I also don't really advocate it, unless ownership has good candidates in mind. There are always young candidates (it's how we got Falvey, and how Levine was portrayed), competent ones, but I'm talking about someone who brings something special to the table. Pitching was the special sauce Falvey could tout, analytics was talked up, and he was a good choice IMO, but you don't find out for real until several years in.

For the reasons you listed in the OP, I don't see much beyond general competence. Competence should not be underestimated - you can do 95% of the day to day things correctly, but one botched contract renewal that lets a key player walk (I think Terry Ryan had one of those, maybe it was a draftee or a foreign prospect signing) can undo a lot of good, and the FalVine regime hasn't suffered one of those that I can recall.

The Correa situation doesn't really change matters.  I give them credit for how the risky 3-year guarantee for 1-year performance worked out with Correa, but he was never going to retire as a Twin.

The competition in FOs has gotten a lot stiffer, and it's probably no longer possible to hoodwink their peers a la Liriano for AJ.

But all in all they haven't shown enough to make me think they're needle-movers themselves.  If I'm Joe Pohlad I'm working with FalVine on good terms, but keeping my eyes open for possible replacements in either role.

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

Preach it. The books have never been cleaner to lock in one long term contract. All of this talk over the years about financial flexibility… It’s only used for 1 + option year contracts for mid tier free agents. 

There’s still time to salvage the offseason, but as things stand on December 14, this is another 90 loss team. 

If they are a 90 loss team without Correa we have much bigger problems than not signing Correa.