Twins Front Office Doubles Down On Process for 2023

[D.C Twins]

This read like an article directly commissioned by the Twins Organization which is disappointing to me coming from TD. 

Overconfidence, micromanaging and stubbornness have brought many leaders down over the course of history. 

Flavine are destined to join this group, but will hardly be noteworthy members

[D.C Twins]

In a related story...

"The Twins fans double down on their process of finding something else to do outside during Twins home games."

[DocBauer]

Look, again, I don't apologize for the FO when they make mistakes,  IMO. Even when they have and still do good things, and have done good things, from the top down, I'm more than willing to call them out. But this vitriol about brining everyone back is a bit nuts. And I'm NOT saying I.'m 100% on board with this or surprised or happy. I'm just saying there needs to be a little perspective here.

#1] NOBODY can predict injuries. The firing of Sanchez came with that caveat as Falvey was very clear that the organization was looking for a different approach to training and recovery to insure they were doing things in the best possible way. You CAN'T predict a bounced ball breaking Jeffer's thumb, for example. And to be fair to the fired Sanchez, when you can't even speak to your team during a lockout in regard to their training, you're kinda on a certain hook you can't control. Right or wrong, in a different organization to begin the season, Mahle has stated his arm/shoulder/velocity issue might have been throwing too hard and too long and just got tired. BS? Maybe. I don't doubt the lockout messed with at least some players, if not a bunch. And that's not necessarily a trainers fault. But when you see a pattern of soft tissue injuries, coming off a weird offseason, but some repeat issues, it's GOOD the FO wants to take an overview look at everything they've been doing. Would you want less?

2] I am surprised Maki was retained as the pitching coach. I thought they might make a major search for the "right guy". And it's been speculated the Twins simply "settled" on Mak because he's a "team guy" and the players like him. With a whole offseason to hire whoever the hell they want to, they decided on Maki because he was convenient? Need I remind anyone that Maki was the BP coach, which is basically another assistant pitching coach, before being given his current role, and the Mets current pitching coach was the FORMER Twins BP coach in Hefner. So is it possible the Twins just kept it too damn simple in a promotion of someone, reportedly, sharp and on board with the structure put in place by Johnson, and could have done better? Maybe. But maybe they just have a really sharp guy getting his 1st best shot to prove how good he can be.

3] Watkins can be better as a 3B coach. But when was the last time ANYONE said they had a great 3B coach? I agree he just blew a few plays. But he also read the defense and opportunities to score and was right many times. I agree he needs to get better, but his coaching ability has to be considered along with his ability to be the 3B coach. (More on that later).

4] Are Popkins and Hernandez applauded for OB and driving runners in from 3B and derived for not being able to advance or drive runners in from 2B? There are seriously strange issues with the Twins 2022 offensive production. Is that the coaches or the players?

Look, I'm no expert on this staff. I expected some changes. But I've also seen this FO's choices for so many coaches being plundered by other teams to have at least have some belief they know what they're doing. We've been plundered Rowson, Johnson, Shelton, and Sawyer just in the last couple of seasons. So I'm willing to give a little leway as to their decision to keep what they have, even if I'm a bit unsure. I think we also have to remember that this current staff has 1yr together, or less than that on the pitching side. 

I DO BELIEVE that Rocco has the ultimate responsibility to make his coaches actually COACH, and change up the daily instruction needed to have a competent team on the field defensively and base running, but I don't know that the coaches kept aren't quite competent.

 My biggest concern is Tingler. He might be smart as hell. But is he the voice in the ear that Baldelli needs to hear? Rocco is NOT a great manager.  He's OK with some smart ideas. What he needs, IMO, is an older, more experienced voice to guide him. And I am disappointed that Tingler was kept more than anyone else. I think bench coach is being ignored. 

[USAFChief]

6 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

 

Most of the arguments here are based on opinions or unprovable situations.  

 

6 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

 

There is a good chance that if Wes Johnson did not quit, this team would have made the playoffs and the view on the Twins would look much different now.

Ahem...

[Cris E]

Some points:

Part of the lack of fundamentals is due to having a gaggle of youngsters running around that should have been in the minors this year. If we didn't suffer that incredible number of injuries, many of these kids would have spent the summer in St Paul or even further down.  Now if you want to complain about why no one is St Paul or Cedar Rapids is watching their Tom Emanski tapes I'll be right there with you, but complaining about Gilberto Celestino or Ronny Henriquez not being ready is disregarding their real timelines. 

Rule changes next year are going to make infielders play their own positions without a lot of buddies running over to help them. (Probably - you never know if we'll try to line up our middle infielders at the center line and have them dash over to a shift at the last second. Let's hope not.)  That means guys with poor mobility, like say Polanco if he's still got the bum wheel, might be at a disadvantage. I don't think this will matter much since it'll only be a return to the way the game was played 5-10 years ago. But you never know.  Also we should expect more base stealing, at least from other teams even if we don't increase our own running. But we should increase our attempts since they were laughably low and there are a couple fast guys on this roster who might be good at it, and we really never put that pressure on other teams to even consider defending against it.  

The 40 man roster construction is kind of muddled right now. There are good looking players at most positions, but several key ones are broken (Buxton, Polanco) or not ready yet (Miranda, Wallner) or both (Lewis). I kind of don't think they expected to be very good this year, what with committing to such a young staff in addition to apparently planning on going with Lewis at SS. But Correa showing up forced them to take a swing at things while he was around, so they picked up a bunch of controlable parts that would still be useful in 2023. I think next year is when they expected all those first and second year guys like Jeffers and Arraez and Ryan to be done learning and start winning. Leading the Central for three months was gravy.

So what do they have? Correa not staying is a big hole, not a big surprise. I think Lewis can probably handle the job, but he's been hurt a lot so even if he was expected to be ready in March I'd still want a 80 game SS on hand.  Buxton will always need a caddy, but I like that job for Gordon. It'll give him something to do for 30-40 games (or more) as a base for the rest of his utility appearances. I like his speed and attitude so I want him out there 100 games as long as his bat doesn't regress too much.  We need a defensive catcher to pair with Jeffers. He hasn't thrown anyone out since high school and the league rules are going to encourage more running next year. If Polanco can come back healthy I like him, but if he can't we should trade him and park Arraez at 2B. Urshela at 3b and Miranda at 1B should be locks. The outfield is going to depend on who is healthy. They should dump a couple lefty hitters to fill needs and get one right handed bat, but other than that there are a lot of parts to sort. They have a lot of good #2-#4 pitchers, but they do need an ace. Sonny Grey has always had a rep as a guy who misses starts, so it's not him. If they can't find one now it's the sort of thing that can be done at the trade deadline. The pen could use a guy like Fulmer and one or two more anonymous flame throwers. Maeda still thinks he's a starter but he doesn't have the health for the role and would be great in Duran's setup role, where he can go multiple innings. Duran gets the fancy closer hat. Pagan might be worth salvaging or he might be trade bait. Relievers are volatile and someone might think they can fix his 96 with movement (and it could even be the Twins.)

They could be good next year, or they could be injured again. They might walk away with the Central again or other teams could play the whole season and not concede everything before Father's Day. A new good front of rotation starter, some luck with  the missing wounded (Mahle, Paddock, Maeda and Alcala just for openers) and some health up and down the lineup and they could be pretty good.  The only thing I will say is that Falvey and Co do like to mix things up, so I expect some unexpected new faces in camp next spring. 

 

 

 

[Mark G]

Funny, but the one name I thought would be here throughout, I haven't seen at all (or did I miss it).  Ultimately, this all begins and ends with Jim Pohlad.  This is his team, not Falvine's or Rocco's.  If he wanted changes, there would be changes.  As I have said elsewhere, even if the decision is to delegate decision making to someone else, the decisions are his, and the buck stops with him.  It doesn't do much good to complain about the branches if we don't care about the tree.  

[tony&rodney]

6 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

This read like an article directly commissioned by the Twins Organization which is disappointing to me coming from TD. 

Overconfidence, micromanaging and stubbornness have brought many leaders down over the course of history. 

Flavine are destined to join this group, but will hardly be noteworthy members

Sadly, I thought the same thing. 

[bighat]

The Twins generated some enthusiasm last offseason for two reasons: 

1. Their poor 2021 could be seen as a fluke - after all, they'd made the playoffs the two years prior and had played fun baseball. 

2. They signed the biggest, most exciting free agent in the game. 

The results? An awful year, even when the team was winning most of us felt like the other shoe was about to drop. And that shoe did drop, and it dropped hard. Bad hitting, bad pitching, bad baserunning, bad fielding....just bad baseball. 

Twins fans will be much more skeptical of the team going into 2023. 

It's pretty scary that in Donaldson and Correa, the Twins have signed 2 of the biggest free agents in baseball over the past 3 seasons. Perhaps THE two biggest free agents available in the years they were signed, in fact. The results have been luke warm and the very best, and at worst it's been extremely disappointing.....and both are already gone! 

If you're a big name, and you look at what Donaldon & Correa did in MN, are you going to want to take a chance in Minneapolis? And if the Twins aren't going to land any big free agents in the near future, what chance does this team have? 

[DuluthRoots]

To me, the failure of the "suits" was most evident in the Baltimore trade at the deadline. Four pitching prospects traded for one All Star reliever. We were supposed to make a run, which never happened.  We faded.

Baltimore meanwhile made a run of sorts, and finished above .500 without Perez, and brought in a bolus of young talent late in the year.

I don't blame the trade. I just think it points out flawed thinking.  They lost sight of the long term goal.

(And I thought so at the time. This is not hindsight.)

[Richie the Rally Goat]

For those upset that coaches heads didn’t roll this fall, I have one suggestion. It’s a big ask, not everyone can afford it, but if you can, I can guarantee you won’t regret it.

 

Go to spring training in March 2023

 

I conspicuously notice the people that I see at spring training, most years, aren’t upset that these coaches didn’t get fired.

I’ve watched Tommy Watkins work with these players, fairly up close and personal for a few instances, a couple days per year. I’ve missed a couple spring trainings over the last decade, but generally I go. It great! I learn more about baseball in those brief moments, than I ever learned anywhere else, including when I played highschool ball. They do coach fundamentals. Really well!

this is two things, one: a pitch to go to spring training, becausd it’s my favorite three or four days of the year.

two: it’s an empathy/reality check. Players for the MN Twins get coached by Baldelli and team for a few years, but have been coached by dozens, maybe hundreds of coaches over a decade or more, before they get to the bigs. The Selig ball, where giving it a sharp and discerning stare could knock it out of the park, drove coaching decisions since McGuire, Sosa and Bonds captured the greatest stage in 1998. 
 

Baldelli and team can’t undo a decade in one or two spring trainings. 
 

we’ve been reading about the minor league affiliates putting more base running tactics into games.

While my sample size is small and only my (fairly ignorant) perception, I think the coaching staff is doing the right things. I’m not sure about the FO, but the coaches I feel good about.

[roger]

15 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

That is exactly what I am talking about. "Winning is he only thing"...is that really the measure of a good process. I agree that is true in war, but is it true in the entertainment sport of baseball. I really don't know. I'm just trying to determine the definition of success in a baseball team. Is it totally winning and only winning. If so, there can only be 1 successful major league team each year and the other 29 teams are failures/losers every year.  That may be true for some of us, including me. If so, why do we (I)  put our selves through this year after year. Why waste or precious and limited time on earth losing every year. That is the basis of my question. Do I really want to do this year after year and if so, why?

Great comment tarheel.

In a mid-market, we need to have some reason to be involved in the team.  Some excitement that gets us to the sofa to watch on tv and sometimes down to Target Field.  To me that means that during say a ten year period each of those years brings us some reason to watch.  That may be having exciting young prospects during a brief rebuild, be that a couple years or longer.  There also needs to be several years that they compete for the playoffs with maybe three or four years getting into the playoffs.  And yes, there needs to be at least one year where they compete for and play in the World Series.  

Unfortunately, this past year didn't fit into that plan.  Maybe we could have called it a rebuild, but the FO didn't manage it that way.  If they had, they would have traded for prospects rather than help at the deadline.  On the other hand, I don't know how any year with the number of injuries fits into this plan.

[TwinsDr2021]

18 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Maybe they are turning down the job of pitching coach because they can earn more at other jobs and get to be home every night.

Sure, but wouldn't you think you could find somebody to take a 200K plus job in the majors to be a pitching coach?

[TwinsChupacabra]

365 days from now, we will be having the same discussions.  The Twins will again be a below average team playing in a terrible division again.  The injuries will be an excuse again.  The pitching will be uninspiring. The in-game decision making from Rocco will again be rock bottom.  We missed the playoffs again.   And Pohlad announces they are keeping the management in place.  Groundhog Day.

Some TD fans will complain that some of us are negative for some reason.  

[tarheeltwinsfan]

On 10/15/2022 at 1:45 PM, TwinsDr2021 said:

Sure, but wouldn't you think you could find somebody to take a 200K plus job in the majors to be a pitching coach?

I'll take that job. 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

I'll take that job. 

Me too.

 

"Throw strikes. ... But don't give 'em anything to hit. ... Questions?"

 

 

[Linus]

41 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Me too.

 

"Throw strikes. ... But don't give 'em anything to hit. ... Questions?"

 

 

Jim Bouton had a great take on this in his book Ball Four. If anyone on these boards hasn’t read it they have to. 
 

He developed a reputation as a kook because he had the audacity to question the usual BS. If he gave up a hit the pitching coach would ask him why he gave him something to hit. If he walked a guy the coach would tell him to throw strikes. Hilarious book. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Me too.

 

"Throw strikes. ... But don't give 'em anything to hit. ... Questions?"

 

 

I was friends with Herm Starette, former pitching coach for the Braves, Phillies, Brewers, Giants, Orioles and bull pen coach for the Red Sox.  I wish he were still alive, so I could ask him if it really is that simple. He was a really good guy. I miss talking with him.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

On 10/14/2022 at 10:58 PM, USAFChief said:

 

Ahem...

Thanks for recognizing that I too am allowed an opinion...

However you will notice that there is no vitriol, only wondering why this issue has not been discussed more.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

On 10/14/2022 at 5:15 PM, mikelink45 said:

Okay - I like Gladden - so you do not.  I question Rocco - you do not.  The training staff is a scape goat - maybe they are guilty.  Nothing can be proved, but at the end of the season if you read the TD posts a lot of very strong Twin followers are ready for the Vikings or some other alternatives and the attendance was down.  Fun to exchange these notes, but in the long run, neither of us will change our minds.

Please do not misquote me.  I have not defended Rocco, nor am I drinking the Rocco Kool-Aid.  As seems to be the way today, you are either FIRE Rocco, or a Rocco defender.  Middle ground is not allowed anymore.

I am not attempting to change yours, or anybody's, mind.  I just find it interesting that most of the arguments to fire, well anybody, are cherry-picked.  Rarely is the body of work looked at as a whole, nor is the future looked at with objectivity.

Being a Twins fan is extremely difficult.  You have to accept that money, not winning, is the primary purpose.  If they happen to win along the way, well great.

I am sorry, but attendance was up.  That is factual. 

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Please do not misquote me.  I have not defended Rocco, nor am I drinking the Rocco Kool-Aid.  As seems to be the way today, you are either FIRE Rocco, or a Rocco defender.  Middle ground is not allowed anymore.

I am not attempting to change yours, or anybody's, mind.  I just find it interesting that most of the arguments to fire, well anybody, are cherry-picked.  Rarely is the body of work looked at as a whole, nor is the future looked at with objectivity.

Being a Twins fan is extremely difficult.  You have to accept that money, not winning, is the primary purpose.  If they happen to win along the way, well great.

I am sorry, but attendance was up.  That is factual. 

But how was it at the end?  That is more of a predictor for next year.