Rotten at the Core: 2022 Twins Were Let Down by Their Own Nucleus

[Mike Sixel]

34 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I think you misunderstood my point, or I didn't make it well. A team like the Twins absolutely has to build and succeed through drafting and building a core. The issue is that this core - the players who are currently in this organization - are either a) not likely to be reliable due to injury concerns or b) not anywhere close to elite.

Where is this farm system ranked at this point? 20th? 25th? Which pitchers project to be top-of-the-rotation starters? Which internally-ranked arms project to throw 150-200 quality innings per year? How about position players? Who projects to be a 30-40 HR hitter? Who can seriously contend for a batting title? Who looks like they've got Gold Glove range? Who can steal 25-30 bases in a season?

The answer to all of these questions is this: no one. While there have been some promising seasons and some compelling minor league storylines, this team can't hold a candle to the talent that is acquired and developed by the big boys of baseball. And not even to the dregs who have used the last few years to rebuild.

So what are we even doing here? Why are we even asking this FO to stay? They've been touted as a supremely intelligent group with the ability to build a sustainable pitching pipeline PLUS augment that staff with veteran reclamation projects that can rebound and anchor the rotation and pen. None of this has happened, and there are no signs to indicate that it ever will.

It's sad and it's frustrating, but this team is going to have to take a few steps back into the cellar before it can take confident steps towards a title. And it's going to have to involve a new FO and new voices in the dugout. And the longer we wait, the harder its going to get to keep fans on board. In fact, that may already be too late.

Arraez is seriously contending for a batting title this year. Lewis or Martin will/can steal 20 bases if they want to do that. Wallner could hit 30 home runs in a year. That's without me even thinking for a second about anyone else.

The farm system ranking reflects that the following top players aren't in the farm anymore: Miranda, Arraez, Ryan, Duran, Jax, Larncach, Jeffers, Kiriloff (even Gordon), Ober. Then there is Varland, that the systems rate lower than a likely 4/5. 

The last two years are a real downer. But anyone that thinks a team can contend when they play half the year w/o their top 5 outfielders, one of whom is their best player, is likely to be disappointed.

Fans only care about winning. Whether it is this front office or not. Eventually they'll start winning, then the fans will be back.

[LastOnePicked]

52 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

anyone that thinks a team can contend when they play half the year w/o their top 5 outfielders, one of whom is their best player, is likely to be disappointed

Solid response, Mike. But what indications do you have that this was a fluke? Entirely possible that the same thing happens again in 2023. Kirilloff has a very uphill battle to return to MLB. Larnach has been totally sidelined by injuries for two seasons in a row. Buxton will, as always, spend significant time on the IL.

If your healthy "newly graduated" core consists of Miranda, Jax, Gordon, Ryan and Duran, you're probably not going to go toe-to-toe with the likes of the Astros or Yankees. With the exception of Duran, none of the players you list are close to elite. Even the older core players with one or more nearly-elite skills like Arraez - and I love Arraez - are fading away at the end here. So you kind of reinforced my point - you're relying on a LOT of question marks and unproven commodities.

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Eventually they'll start winning, then the fans will be back.

My last point: time doesn't make this happen. If it did, the Twins would have already won an AL title in the last 30 years. Winning is not an accident - it's an iron will, bolstered by good decisions, married to a good plan and peppered with just a pinch of luck.

[Nick Nelson]

1 hour ago, LastOnePicked said:

I think you misunderstood my point, or I didn't make it well. A team like the Twins absolutely has to build and succeed through drafting and building a core. The issue is that this core - the players who are currently in this organization - are either a) not likely to be reliable due to injury concerns or b) not anywhere close to elite.

I guess that where we seem to differ is that for me, B relates very strongly to A, and A is largely out of their control.

Maybe you disagree, but when they've been healthy, I see franchise cornerstone ability in guys like Lewis and Kirilloff. Buxton, Arraez, and Polanco have all been All-Stars in the past few years. Guys like Ober, Winder, Varland, SWR, Canterino ... they look like quality arms to me, but we just haven't been able to see them in extended form yet. Obviously their system took a huge hit this year due to their top position player prospect (Martin) and pitching prospect (Balazovic) oddly tanking and I'm not sure what to make of that, but I'm not ready to write either one off.

I'd say the front office is behind schedule on the pitching side but I guess I'm a little more forgiving than most given the timing of the pandemic, which threw every developing pitcher's workload progression out of whack, and the fact that they've shown some results with guys like Duran, Jax, Ryan. I can't stress enough how bad of shape this system was in pitching-wise when the new regime came aboard. 

[rv78]

3 hours ago, Nick Nelson said:

I can only speak for myself but I don't see this "constant stream," here or elsewhere. I mostly see criticism of the front office as this lost season plays out, which is warranted. Mostly I'm trying to add some counterbalance and perspective. I liked most of the moves they made, when they made them, so I'm not gonna sit here and whine about them in hindsight.

If you were expecting more from Correa or Gray, you probably weren't being realistic. Frankly if you were expecting much from the pitching staff, you probably weren't being realistic. Building a great staff out of an essentially empty cupboard is a lot to ask. If the Twins were going to be good, it was gonna need to be driven largely by the 5 guys I wrote about. They came up short and need to be shouldering this season as much as anyone. That's something I don't see people talking enough about. There is 10X more complaining about the Twins signing Dylan Bundy, which had a VASTLY smaller effect on the team's failure than 5 core "everyday" players doing NOTHING in the second half.

You were the one who said those 2 moves paid off handsomely. I just beg to differ. While I wasn't overly disappointed in Correa the value he brought to the team wasn't worth $35M. And I already touched on why Gray, at less than 120 innings for the season wasn't worth his weight in $$ either. If my expectations for those 2 players were unrealistic then your expectations of Buxton, Polanco, Kepler, Arraez and Jeffers were also. They gave us pretty much exactly what they have in the past. If you are to expect career years from them let's do the same for Gray and Correa.

[LastOnePicked]

4 minutes ago, Nick Nelson said:

I can't stress enough how bad of shape this system was in pitching-wise when the new regime came aboard. 

I'll make this last point, and then I'm going to quit while I'm either ahead or behind. Plus, my real-life to-do list is stacking up while I'm talking Twins.

But ... imagine you've been stuck eating regularly at a bad restaurant. Like really bad. Stale food. Weak menu. Just awful to be stuck in. But then you get out of that restaurant and start making another place your regular spot. This place is a bit better, sure, but to you it seems great because of what you've been stuck in for years. That's why it's good to have friends join you, because they might have to tell you that, sad to say, this new favorite restaurant of yours really isn't even that good by comparison to what else is out there.

National baseball writers have been trying to tell us the truth - this FO is nothing special when it comes to drafting and developing pitchers. "Better than what came before" matters a lot less than "Good enough to get us to the top." It's been over six years, and every team has had to deal with the same pandemic. This is still not a great place to eat. Sorry.

[KirbyDome89]

8 hours ago, umterp23 said:

So one stint to a the IL for Jeffers due to wild pitch in pregame bullpen warmup that led to a fracture in his throwing hand and you question durability.  Farther from the truth on that weak statement.  Plus you failed to mention that was his hottest streak of hitting during that stretch leading up to the team doctors finally figuring out he had a broken bone in his hand for 2 weeks since the original injury occurrence.  Sanchez showed flashes but he is basically a veteran Jeffers that has multiple years in the bigs.  Not a big time hitter, had maybe 2 really decent years early in his career.  Yankees were pleased to get rid of him so let's not kid ourselves on Sanchez.  Leon as a rental was awful.  Hamilton has 1 hit and isn't big league material.  Depth at catcher has to be addressed, as the minor league options are not impressive for developing in house.

My biggest concern is the Trainers/Team doctors as a let down for this season.  Seems like some failed diagnosis multiple times this year with a bunch of guys.  

We're trying so hard to pin blame anywhere other than where it most obviously belongs. Team doctors operate the same as general physicians or specialists you and I see. To the best of their abilities they'll provide a diagnosis, recommend treatment options, and/or a referral. What anyone chooses to do with that information is up to them, i.e. the team doctors can tell the player and organization what they believe the issue is, they can provide multiple treatment routes, and they can be open and honest about which they recommend and why, but ultimately, the decision about playing time and the route moving forward is up to the player and those in charge. If Tyler Mahle for example, says he feels alright, and wants to pitch, and the FO is ok with taking that risk, he's going to pitch. Doctors are conservative out of necessity. If we're blaming the team medical staff for the injury issues, we're talking about an all time awful group of physicians, like lose your license to practice type of bad. 

[KirbyDome89]

2 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

So what are we even doing here? Why are we even asking this FO to stay? They've been touted as a supremely intelligent group with the ability to build a sustainable pitching pipeline PLUS augment that staff with veteran reclamation projects that can rebound and anchor the rotation and pen. None of this has happened, and there are no signs to indicate that it ever will.

Chefs kiss. 

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, KBJ1 said:

 

Hosmer would be a great fit if we can somehow acquire him. The Padres paid his salary and sent along prospects to move him. Yet 276/ 16 hr at the deadline with excellent fielding skills would have been a godsend. We had zero 1B all year and it showed. Obviously can't count on Kiriloff or Sano.

 

 

Which mythical player was hitting .276 with 16 homeruns while displaying excellent fielding skills at the deadline? Cuz Eric Hosmer currently has 8 homeruns on the season. He was hitting .272 at the deadline, and hit .225 with Boston before getting injured and replaced.

[Mike Sixel]

36 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

Solid response, Mike. But what indications do you have that this was a fluke? Entirely possible that the same thing happens again in 2023. Kirilloff has a very uphill battle to return to MLB. Larnach has been totally sidelined by injuries for two seasons in a row. Buxton will, as always, spend significant time on the IL.

If your healthy "newly graduated" core consists of Miranda, Jax, Gordon, Ryan and Duran, you're probably not going to go toe-to-toe with the likes of the Astros or Yankees. With the exception of Duran, none of the players you list are close to elite. Even the older core players with one or more nearly-elite skills like Arraez - and I love Arraez - are fading away at the end here. So you kind of reinforced my point - you're relying on a LOT of question marks and unproven commodities.

My last point: time doesn't make this happen. If it did, the Twins would have already won an AL title in the last 30 years. Winning is not an accident - it's an iron will, bolstered by good decisions, married to a good plan and peppered with just a pinch of luck.

Other than AK and Buxton, none of those were likely to be hurt this year. I have no idea if they'll be healthy or not, but they lost Buxton, Larnarch, Kiriloff, Kepler (played hurt too much), Lewis all at the same time. 

No one said that core was good enough to go head to head, I said that's why the ranking is down. All of those were top 5 for the team at the beginning of the year, that's going to hurt the ranking. 

I'm not sure what an AL title has to do with winning during the year at all. Fans come if the team is good and entertaining. The ones that matter to how many don't care about AL titles. 

[jmlease1]

35 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I'll make this last point, and then I'm going to quit while I'm either ahead or behind. Plus, my real-life to-do list is stacking up while I'm talking Twins.

But ... imagine you've been stuck eating regularly at a bad restaurant. Like really bad. Stale food. Weak menu. Just awful to be stuck in. But then you get out of that restaurant and start making another place your regular spot. This place is a bit better, sure, but to you it seems great because of what you've been stuck in for years. That's why it's good to have friends join you, because they might have to tell you that, sad to say, this new favorite restaurant of yours really isn't even that good by comparison to what else is out there.

National baseball writers have been trying to tell us the truth - this FO is nothing special when it comes to drafting and developing pitchers. "Better than what came before" matters a lot less than "Good enough to get us to the top." It's been over six years, and every team has had to deal with the same pandemic. This is still not a great place to eat. Sorry.

I feel like statements akin to this one ignore the 2019 & 2020 seasons for the Twins (maybe because they didn't win in the playoffs). because I recall the 2019 season being a freakin' delight. the Bomba Squad was sending them flying, the bullpen was very very good and the starters were actually pretty good with Berrios & Odorizzi leading the way. 2020 was also pretty fun in the shortened season with an ace-level performance from Maeda. It's sorta like those seasons never happened for some people?

yeah, last year sucked and this year has ended in disappointment. But it hasn't been all garbage and misery!

[LastOnePicked]

18 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

I feel like statements akin to this one ignore the 2019 & 2020 seasons for the Twins (maybe because they didn't win in the playoffs). because I recall the 2019 season being a freakin' delight. the Bomba Squad was sending them flying, the bullpen was very very good and the starters were actually pretty good with Berrios & Odorizzi leading the way. 2020 was also pretty fun in the shortened season with an ace-level performance from Maeda. It's sorta like those seasons never happened for some people?

yeah, last year sucked and this year has ended in disappointment. But it hasn't been all garbage and misery!

Sure, but at the REALLY good restaurants, they serve World Series appearances. Sometimes even fresh MLB titles. You really gotta try it someday, my friend. ?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I just want to comment on the idea that Falvey inherited no pitching. It's just not true. 

They inherited Gibson and Berrios, a mediocre but reliable pitcher approaching free agency and an exciting young rookie.

Ok so the big league rotation was light on talent, but it wasn't completely barren. Throw in Erv Santana.

If anything, it was the bullpen and the pitchers in the minors who we were optimistic about.

In the bullpen they inherited Ryan Pressly, Taylor Rogers, and Brandon Kintzler. That's not nothing. Plus a swath of other guys who had some nominal value like Duffey, Tonkin, etc. There were younger guys like Brusdar Graterol and Fernando Romero on their way up. Some posters liked Randy Rosario and Felix Jorge. Way down deeper in the sytem, teams plucked Luis Gil, Huascar Ynoa, and Tyler Wells from us. 

Tyler Jay and Kohl Stewart had value. Stephen Gonsalves was not expected to be a star, but was also not to be traded away, either. Too valuable. Part of the future.

All of these pitchers I listed made it to the big leagues, so they can tell their grandkids and so on. I am not trying to disparage them, at all.  

Now, like the previous poster, I have things piling up to do.  

 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, LastOnePicked said:

Sure, but at the REALLY good restaurants, they serve World Series appearances. Sometimes even fresh MLB titles. You really gotta try it someday, my friend. ?

If we can't be happy unless they win a WS, good luck to us all. That's just not my measuring stick, good on you if it is.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I just want to comment on the idea that Falvey inherited no pitching. It's just not true. 

They inherited Gibson and Berrios, a mediocre but reliable pitcher approaching free agency and an exciting young rookie.

Ok so the big league rotation was light on talent, but it wasn't completely barren. Throw in Erv Santana.

If anything, it was the bullpen and the pitchers in the minors who we were optimistic about.

In the bullpen they inherited Ryan Pressly, Taylor Rogers, and Brandon Kintzler. That's not nothing. Plus a swath of other guys who had some nominal value like Duffey, Tonkin, etc. There were younger guys like Brusdar Graterol and Fernando Romero on their way up. Some posters liked Randy Rosario and Felix Jorge. Way down deeper in the sytem, teams plucked Luis Gil, Huascar Ynoa, and Tyler Wells from us. 

Tyler Jay and Kohl Stewart had value. Stephen Gonsalves was not expected to be a star, but was also not to be traded away, either. Too valuable. Part of the future.

All of these pitchers I listed made it to the big leagues, so they can tell their grandkids and so on. I am not trying to disparage them, at all.  

Now, like the previous poster, I have things piling up to do.  

 

Which minor league pitcher was good at all, or went somewhere else and was good? NONE OF THEM. Not one starter other than Wells. That was it. Gibson was awful his last year here. That left Berrios. That's it. People complain they haven't got any young starters other than Ryan (and Varland and Ober)....but who of those other than Wells is a good starter at all? None of them.

I can't believe anyone is arguing they inherited anything other than a cluster, given teams need 8 starters a year.

[TwinsChupacabra]

This seems like another excuse article.  Can't really blame the F. O.  Can't really blame the manager.  Poor guys... What are they to do when some of their players didn't play better than expected?

Like stated in many posts, several players performed within a range that was expected.  They just don't have a bunch of all-stars.  When you don't have the studs, or at least a bunch of players having career years, the importance of management really shows up.

When your team doesn't hit 200 homers, you have to do the little things correctly to win.  When you have a Rocco, this will never happen.  And the front office has to be blamed too.  They were the ones that hired him and now have double-downed on him after another dismal season.

When you can't win a playoff game when the entire team is playing great as in 2019, you certainly are not going to win when they are not.  Or at least not with management. 

Seeing more empty seats in the future. 

[DocBauer]

Nick, I agree in principle with just about everything you've stated with a few important caveats:

1] The team had a mostly empty cupboard for the rotation except for Ryan and Ober and hope on the shelf. The trade for Gray was solid, and I would have done it again, despite some of his missed starts. But ONLY adding Bundy when there was a plethora of good to really good arms available in FA was a HUGE miscalculation. 

2] Either ignoring the BP almost entirely was either a horrible miscalculation or hubris they could just "cobble" an effective pen.

3] Some of the baserunning and defensive lapses and miscues were just unacceptable. Granted, young players will make some mistakes. And the past month or so the lineup has basically been AAA quality at multiple spots. And when you play lesser quality players, you generally expect more mistakes. But that doesn't excuse so many mistakes in the season overall.

But yes, the established core of the team was a letdown, at least to some degree. Kepler and Polanco disappeared in the 2nd half, but were good to solid before injury. Buxton hung in and produced until he couldn't any longer. Correa didn't have a very good 1st half. Gray was really good but missed time hurt. And there's more, but that's enough.

HOWEVER,  what also hurt tremendously was the "new core" unable to largely perform as hoped. Ober got hurt and I think we missed him way more than people realize. AK still wasn't right. Larnach looked really good before his hernia, or whatever his injury is to be called. Lewis looked like everything we hoped for and expected before blowing out his knee. Alcala was basically gone the whole season. Jeffers got hurt just as he was really heating up. No need to go on.

So really, there were TWO cores who let the team down, old and new. Thank goodness Urshela, Miranda, Gordon, and Arraez played and produced and were in the lineup regularly or who knows how bad things might have been. 

As Gleeman is fond of saying, it's possible for 2 things to be true. A vast amount of almost incalculable injuries derailed the 2022 season for the Twins, making BOTH the "old" and "new" core letting the team down. But it's also true that some poor roster construction and lack of fundamentals hurt this team.

 

[jmlease1]

9 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

Nick, I agree in principle with just about everything you've stated with a few important caveats:

1] The team had a mostly empty cupboard for the rotation except for Ryan and Ober and hope on the shelf. The trade for Gray was solid, and I would have done it again, despite some of his missed starts. But ONLY adding Bundy when there was a plethora of good to really good arms available in FA was a HUGE miscalculation. 

2] Either ignoring the BP almost entirely was either a horrible miscalculation or hubris they could just "cobble" an effective pen.

3] Some of the baserunning and defensive lapses and miscues were just unacceptable. Granted, young players will make some mistakes. And the past month or so the lineup has basically been AAA quality at multiple spots. And when you play lesser quality players, you generally expect more mistakes. But that doesn't excuse so many mistakes in the season overall.

(snip)

As Gleeman is fond of saying, it's possible for 2 things to be true. A vast amount of almost incalculable injuries derailed the 2022 season for the Twins, making BOTH the "old" and "new" core letting the team down. But it's also true that some poor roster construction and lack of fundamentals hurt this team.

 

I think this is a pretty fair statement. There's really no arguing #1, and even the FO would probably agree if you poured enough beer into them, seeing as they made the Mahle trade at midseason. I think there was reason to believe they could cobble together a bullpen, based on past performance and the way TB has managed it...but it really hurt them early on and the team paid the price. Games in April/May count as much as July/August. I don't know how many games the poor baserunning & defensive lapses cost, but there's no doubt we had too many that it stuck out like a sore thumb. (I never need to see Tommy Watkins standing by 3B ever again, no matter how nice a dude he is)

The injuries are the biggest determining factor for me in this season's disappointing conclusion, but there's no doubt the Twins FO made other mistakes in roster construction this season and in coaching. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, TwinsChupacabra said:

This seems like another excuse article.  Can't really blame the F. O.  Can't really blame the manager.  Poor guys... What are they to do when some of their players didn't play better than expected?

Like stated in many posts, several players performed within a range that was expected.  They just don't have a bunch of all-stars.  When you don't have the studs, or at least a bunch of players having career years, the importance of management really shows up.

When your team doesn't hit 200 homers, you have to do the little things correctly to win.  When you have a Rocco, this will never happen.  And the front office has to be blamed too.  They were the ones that hired him and now have double-downed on him after another dismal season.

When you can't win a playoff game when the entire team is playing great as in 2019, you certainly are not going to win when they are not.  Or at least not with management. 

Seeing more empty seats in the future. 

Blame, fault, those are not great ways to judge the world. Sometimes stuff happens. 

[Eris]

I think in general this thread is too harsh on Max Kepler. He has contributed 2 WAR while playing in slightly more than 2/3 of the games (115). 2.0 WAR  is currently 4th on the Twins team. His season was interrupted by a broken toe from a HBP and ended with a wrist injury).  1 WAR is worth about 8 million, so his value was about 2x his contract. Had he played a full season he would have had about 2.5 WAR. (Just prorating his WAR to 150 games).
 

I thought he had made progress earlier in the season by hitting more to the opposite field. This was his worst offensive season in the big leagues, but his second best defensive season.   Not sure how much his injuries contributed to his offensive swoon after the all-star break. 
 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/max-kepler/12144/stats?position=OF 

[Dennesey55347]

I'm done with the entire core. We need a complete makeover and a new vibe. Up you come, in-house youngsters and acquired bats. 7ish years is way more than enough time to see that current stocks will never bear the kind of fruit I'm hungry for. Keep Arraez. Everyone else: pack. House clean management as well. But do still invest heavily in the front line this off season.

[Trov]

I agree with the assertion that the core is what led to the downfall.  Buck going down as usual, Polonco going down was big, but it did let Gordon show his stuff on everyday basis.  Arraez has been ehh, but I wonder if that is more so based on just wearing down, he has played career high in games this year and wonder if his body is just not used to it.  Kepler is who he is.  His season numbers are on par with his career numbers, except for a little less power, which may be of concern. 

That being said, I am not ready to move on from Arraez at all.  Polonco if we can find a taker I would be willing to move on from him, as we have plenty of possible fill ins.  Kepler, I would not dump him but similar I would be willing to move on from him, and if we do not, drop him to bottom third of line up.  

[LastOnePicked]

11 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Blame, fault, those are not great ways to judge the world. Sometimes stuff happens. 

Counterpoint: Accountability matters. If the "stuff that happens" is somehow only ever keeping your organization from success, the fault is probably less in the stars and more in the decisions being made by those at the top.

I value grace and forgiveness. I don't hate anybody involved with this team. But I hate weak excuses, and I hate a culture of losing.

[insagt1]

Winning a world series is always THE goal...but being realistic of course, only one team can win per year and leaves out a lot of REAL GOOD teams. My problem with the Twins has been their playoff disappearances. That gross playoff losing streak is pretty hard to swallow. A good goal would be to at least become competitive in post season...and then see what happens.

The Twins 'core' this year was severely damaged. The new core? Well, the replacements were pretty bad this season. Its troubling to try and 'count on' several players who have been chronically injured and may never reach potential. I wonder if Correa will have the integrity to sit down with management and and try to work something out that doesn't have him just leave with nothing in return...even if he doesn't have to do this. Since he is signed (lets for a second ignore the opt-out) would a trade make sense? (I'm not very familiar with all the terms of his contract so anyone please help me out if I'm wandering aimlessly!)

Fans can be critical of Kepler this year. He just isn't progressing. Time to try an new brand. Obviously same with Sano. Lots to do in the off season for sure. For now, beat the Sox, finish in 2nd, and maybe even get to .500.

[ashbury]

20 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

In the bullpen they inherited Ryan Pressly, Taylor Rogers, and Brandon Kintzler. That's not nothing. Plus a swath of other guys who had some nominal value like Duffey, Tonkin, etc. There were younger guys like Brusdar Graterol and Fernando Romero on their way up.

I feel like the FO's analytics aren't all they are cracked up to be, and I haven't really discussed their approach to relievers.  They basically seem to subscribe to the most basic analytic view that armchair analytics fans such as my self have absorbed: Closers Are Overrated.  But they seem to have taken it further, and treat arms that look elite as easily replaceable.  They traded away Pressly.  They traded away Rogers.  They traded away Graterol.  In each case they got something back of value; I saw Rogers as becoming a chronic injury risk and thought he would be a good trade chip (whom they flipped for didn't work out so great, though).  But they don't seem to follow up these moves with anything but belief that the Pitching Pipeline™ will spit out another similar arm at will.  Other teams don't seem to undervalue good relief arms, and offer value in return, and I wish our FO would stop and think harder about why that is.

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

Counterpoint: Accountability matters. If the "stuff that happens" is somehow only ever keeping your organization from success, the fault is probably less in the stars and more in the decisions being made by those at the top.

I value grace and forgiveness. I don't hate anybody involved with this team. But I hate weak excuses, and I hate a culture of losing.

They literally won the division twice. I don't agree there is any culture of losing. We are going to disagree on that. As for accountability.....how is it Rocco's fault they had 1 starting pitcher last year, and he was traded at the deadline? The FO? They might have issues, but no way that's on Rocco.