Disgust

[Montdak]

My new topic is an old topic we have many of us been gagging on for several days now.  Many times if I carp or pick at Rocco I know that I may be missing something, he might have a bigger perspective etc.  Not this time. We had a chance to gain two in the standings versus the Sox (3-0 versus 2-1 ) in the recent series.  Why in the world did he not send Duran out for the 9th after he mowed them down on few pitches in the 8th?  I reluctantly bow to him on all this saving them for important games late in season stuff.  But this was a super important game.  Why could he not realize THIS was late in the season and what he was saved for?  Now Duran is ready for a so-so game against Texas that he might not be needed for anyway.  If it comes down to where we needed those two games in the end but didn’t have them we will remember this colossal miscalculation.  That being said, I like Rocco and don’t want him fired.  But I have never wanted any Twins manager fired.  I just want them to do better and avoid huge blunders.

[Rosterman]

Pampering the starting rotation. ALL the pitchers should be capable of throwing 100 pitches. That should be more the rule than two times thru the order and the fear of a third. Maybe we need, then, at least two pitches that can pitch as openers so our precious rotation arms can start with the bottom of an order rather than the top.

I'm also seeing it in the minors. Sure, there has been a lack of innings by most pitchers over the past two seasons and some concern about rebuilding their...endurance.

And, plesae...use the same lineup twice. I always felt it was more important to have same people batting in front and behind you rather than total pitcher matchups. Players work off of each other. Get comfortable. See how a pitcher regularly approaches a batter before you.

Sometimes I think Rocco is playing Fantasy Baseball!

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, Montdak said:

My new topic is an old topic we have many of us been gagging on for several days now.  Many times if I carp or pick at Rocco I know that I may be missing something, he might have a bigger perspective etc.  Not this time. We had a chance to gain two in the standings versus the Sox (3-0 versus 2-1 ) in the recent series.  Why in the world did he not send Duran out for the 9th after he mowed them down on few pitches in the 8th?  I reluctantly bow to him on all this saving them for important games late in season stuff.  But this was a super important game.  Why could he not realize THIS was late in the season and what he was saved for?  Now Duran is ready for a so-so game against Texas that he might not be needed for anyway.  If it comes down to where we needed those two games in the end but didn’t have them we will remember this colossal miscalculation.  That being said, I like Rocco and don’t want him fired.  But I have never wanted any Twins manager fired.  I just want them to do better and avoid huge blunders.

He did send Duran out for the 9th.

Megill pitched the 8th.

 

[Nine of twelve]

52 minutes ago, Rosterman said:

Sometimes I think Rocco is playing Fantasy Baseball!

Hmmm. That's not my view. It seems to me that many, probably a majority, of the people who post on this site are the ones who are playing Fantasy Baseball.

[SwainZag]

1 hour ago, Montdak said:

My new topic is an old topic we have many of us been gagging on for several days now.  Many times if I carp or pick at Rocco I know that I may be missing something, he might have a bigger perspective etc.  Not this time. We had a chance to gain two in the standings versus the Sox (3-0 versus 2-1 ) in the recent series.  Why in the world did he not send Duran out for the 9th after he mowed them down on few pitches in the 8th?  I reluctantly bow to him on all this saving them for important games late in season stuff.  But this was a super important game.  Why could he not realize THIS was late in the season and what he was saved for?  Now Duran is ready for a so-so game against Texas that he might not be needed for anyway.  If it comes down to where we needed those two games in the end but didn’t have them we will remember this colossal miscalculation.  That being said, I like Rocco and don’t want him fired.  But I have never wanted any Twins manager fired.  I just want them to do better and avoid huge blunders.

If the Twins score in the 10th, there is no doubt in my mind that Duran heads out for the bottom half.  With the Twins not scoring, even if Duran comes in and strands the runner at 2nd, we still go to the 11th.  Duran isn't coming out for a 3rd inning, so Moran is going to have to get 3 outs regardless.  

Instead of yelling at Rocco, blame the offense for failing to get a runner in from 2nd with zero outs....that was the real blunder in the 10th.

[Number3]

I don't care who pitched what inning. All I know is that he pulled the starter after 4 and 85 pitches and the relief immediately gave up the tying run. He typically makes more trips to the mound than a hang gliding team at the Outer Banks. The number of pitchers usually is about 80% of the regulars who have to hit. He inserts pinch runners for no real reason at a cost of a better hitter maybe later in the game. He moves defenders all over the field for no apparent reason at critical times. He radically changes lineups every game so no one can get comfortable. Executive summary...he wishes he was still playing so he inserts himself into every game way more than necessary. His WAR is negative. He "manages" way too much.

[In My La Z boy]

53 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

If the Twins score in the 10th, there is no doubt in my mind that Duran heads out for the bottom half.  With the Twins not scoring, even if Duran comes in and strands the runner at 2nd, we still go to the 11th.  Duran isn't coming out for a 3rd inning, so Moran is going to have to get 3 outs regardless.  

Instead of yelling at Rocco, blame the offense for failing to get a runner in from 2nd with zero outs....that was the real blunder in the 10th.

Blame the offense? How many times in one game can the offense be expected to take the lead? I think we gave the bullpen 4 chances to hold 4 leads. 

[Muppet]

8 minutes ago, In My La Z boy said:

Blame the offense? How many times in one game can the offense be expected to take the lead? I think we gave the bullpen 4 chances to hold 4 leads. 

At the very minimum, they should be expected to take the lead in the top of the 10th. 

[Craig Arko]

Disgust with a first place team? What are the expectations here?

[Mike Sixel]

16 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

Disgust with a first place team? What are the expectations here?

Every player being the best player in MLB.....duh. Every move by the manager working, even if his bullpen choices are 1-2 guys he can really trust and 4-7 other guiys.

[stringer bell]

Rocco is far from faultless. However, the problem yesterday is that a succession of relievers failed to do their jobs. The 100% 20-20 hindsight that X should have thrown a second inning becomes cherry-picking. I've said it before, the rotation has been successful, but it is both brittle and fragile. That means little trust for long outings and a quick hook in close games.

The bullpen has been exposed too often and they have injury excuses (currently Smith, Coulombe and Alcala on the injured list), but there isn't enough quality there, even at full strength, to cover for the additional innings the rotation puts on them. Baldelli gets the abuse for covering for and protecting his bullpen. I guess that is part of the job..

[ICTwin25]

22 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

Disgust with a first place team? What are the expectations here?

I think the reason a lot of fans get frustrated is because they know how talented the White Sox are and how hot they can get. The entire first half of the year this team has blown high probability leads/wins. I know I am frustrated because I truly think we should have a double digit lead on the division. I don't know who deserves blame the most, but Rocco drives me absolutely nuts with the constant changes in the batting order and how he manages pitchers. I try to cut him some slack because of how many good pitchers we have on the IL and because Falvey totally disregarded the bullpen in the offseason, but I still find myself shaking my head. 

While it's frustrating the team didnt score in the 10th, they scored 8 runs and regained the lead 4 different times in game 3 of the Sox series. I do think Jhoan should have come back out in the 10th, especially with having yesterday off. Rocco said he didnt play Correa because he wanted to give him two days off, well why not go another inning with Jhoan knowing he had the next day off?

Since getting to 27-16 on May 24th, the team is 20-22. I don't think you can expect to win the division going .500 for the rest of the year. I could be wrong, but losses like that (and ones to Cleveland) are huge

[Mike Sixel]

15 minutes ago, ICTwin25 said:

I think the reason a lot of fans get frustrated is because they know how talented the White Sox are and how hot they can get. ...............

Since getting to 27-16 on May 24th, the team is 20-22. I don't think you can expect to win the division going .500 for the rest of the year. I could be wrong, but losses like that (and ones to Cleveland) are huge

Losses like that are definitely annoying and not good for the team. I'm not super worried at this point about the regular season, though there is an inkling of doubt settling in if Ryan doesn't return to form. 

On the other hand, this team could be on pace for 120 wins, and this board would still whine and complain about Baldelli and spreadsheets and stat heads. Even in threads about players of the month. Even in threads celebrating something. Over and over. 

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, SwainZag said:

If the Twins score in the 10th, there is no doubt in my mind that Duran heads out for the bottom half.  With the Twins not scoring, even if Duran comes in and strands the runner at 2nd, we still go to the 11th.  Duran isn't coming out for a 3rd inning, so Moran is going to have to get 3 outs regardless. 

True enough, but in order to get the win, someone will have to pitch the 11th after that.

I'm not saying Duran should have gone two, in that situation.  Just that the analysis has to carry beyond that one inning, unless losing is the acceptable goal.

[Muppet]

From a brief look at the box score, the only thing that looks like a dumb move to me was putting in Pagan when the game wasn't a blowout. Assuming that Ryan was pulled because there was something wrong with him. 

[USAFChief]

50 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Losses like that are definitely annoying and not good for the team. I'm not super worried at this point about the regular season, though there is an inkling of doubt settling in if Ryan doesn't return to form. 

On the other hand, this team could be on pace for 120 wins, and this board would still whine and complain about Baldelli and spreadsheets and stat heads. Even in threads about players of the month. Even in threads celebrating something. Over and over. 

"This board?" No.

Some posters.  Who, by the way, have as much right to question the manager as you do to support him.

Attacking other posters, however, is out of bounds. And you're skirting the boundary of that. 

 

Let's all let others talk.

 

Disagree with them? Fine. Please stick to why.

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Losses like that are definitely annoying and not good for the team. I'm not super worried at this point about the regular season, though there is an inkling of doubt settling in if Ryan doesn't return to form. 

On the other hand, this team could be on pace for 120 wins, and this board would still whine and complain about Baldelli and spreadsheets and stat heads. Even in threads about players of the month. Even in threads celebrating something. Over and over. 

I don't think this is unique to Twins fans though--this is what happens when you have a bunch of people who are very invested in a team.  They're going to see a lot of things, and they're going to talk about what they see.  If those people tend to be pessimists in general, it's likely they'll focus on the negative.

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

Disgust with a first place team? What are the expectations here?

World championships. Just like every other fan base. Cept maybe the marlins ?

[Craig Arko]

18 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

World championships. Just like every other fan base. Cept maybe the marlins ?

And remote amateur micro-managing and mid-season firings are the keys that opens this door?

Has that worked very often?

[Schmoeman5]

8 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

And remote amateur micro-managing and mid-season firings are the keys that opens this door?

Has that worked very often?

I was just answering your question. I don't agree with micro managing and mid-season firings. Those are desperation moves. They seldom work

[Craig Arko]

12 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I was just answering your question. I don't agree with micro managing and mid-season firings. Those are desperation moves. They seldom work

Thanks, there are too many other things which might call for desperation to sweat about this.

[ICTwin25]

1 hour ago, Muppet said:

From a brief look at the box score, the only thing that looks like a dumb move to me was putting in Pagan when the game wasn't a blowout. Assuming that Ryan was pulled because there was something wrong with him. 

Ryan was pulled early because of many things. For one, he threw 85 pitches and that seems to be the new 100 threshold. Second, his velocity was down. Lastly, he was kinda all over the place with control. I didnt watch all of it, but that's what I noticed when I did watch. As stated in another thread, I think he just needs to regain his strength from COVID. We have seen that with multiple players in multiple sports...hopefully he returns to early season form in a bit.

[Craig Arko]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Losses like that are definitely annoying and not good for the team. I'm not super worried at this point about the regular season, though there is an inkling of doubt settling in if Ryan doesn't return to form. 

On the other hand, this team could be on pace for 120 wins, and this board would still whine and complain about Baldelli and spreadsheets and stat heads. Even in threads about players of the month. Even in threads celebrating something. Over and over. 

Looking on the bright side, it’s been a while since former Minnesota residents have opined about what Target Field costs me in taxes.

[DocBauer]

In regard to game 3 with the Dirty Sox, considering how crazy that game was, with Thursday off, as well as the coming Monday, and having had the previous day off, and only throwing 9 pitches, I felt Duran should have gone out for the 10th. I appreciate monitoring our unbelievable and talented rookie, but again, he wasn't spent and had the next day off, plus the day off following the Ranger series. I don't agree with that move.

In regard to Ryan, 85 pitches in only 4 innings meant he was being battled, going long in counts and just didn't have his best game. And let's not forget, the 2 runs he allowed were in the 4th. His arm could have handled another inning, but I think the consensus was he was pretty much done at that time. 

In regard to the rotation in general...and I'm not going to research weeks of IP and number of pitches thrown, and I really shouldn't have to...listening/watching the games and just looking at box scores would reveal a number of games the past few weeks where just about every member of the rotation has been throwing 90-100 pitches. There's also been a number of 6 IP games, and even a couple 7 IP games. Even Archer threw 2 or 3  5 IP games until his last one before being placed on the IL. So while the rotation hasn't been cranking out 7 IP games on any regular basis, they have been stretched out more than they were the first couple of months. 

The pen remains an issue. But the rotation has been stretched out, due to being ready, as well as the pen now being 1 arm shorter. So it's also by necessity as well as readiness. Even as poor as the pen has been, there are times in a game when you have to ask yourself what makes more sense: throwing a SP in the 90 pitch range facing the heart of a lineup for the 3rd time, OR, turning to a poor/inconsistent fresh arm out of the pen and crossing your fingers a bit? 

[SwainZag]

21 hours ago, In My La Z boy said:

Blame the offense? How many times in one game can the offense be expected to take the lead? I think we gave the bullpen 4 chances to hold 4 leads. 

Once you get to the 10th inning, everything done before hand is in the past.  The bullpen had an awful game and should get the blame for this loss, but you gotta score in the 10th and give your team a chance.  Inheriting a runner on 2nd and not getting a run home is inexcusable, regardless of the 8 runs the offense put up in the first 9 innings.

[baul0010]

21 hours ago, In My La Z boy said:

Blame the offense? How many times in one game can the offense be expected to take the lead? I think we gave the bullpen 4 chances to hold 4 leads. 

The offense hasn't been the issue this year.  Many to most losses are falling squarely on the bullpen.  It doesn't take an experienced baseball mind to see what the number 1 issue the Twins have.  

[baul0010]

21 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

Disgust with a first place team? What are the expectations here?

It's hard to have disgust for the players.  They are all exceeding expectations.  It's been an amazing season that not many saw coming.   I think the disgust falls on some of Rocco's moves or lack of moves during games and the F.O. not making moves to make this team even better.  It's easy to look back after the game and rail on Rocco.  I'd guess there aren't many teams selling right now.  Hopefully the Twins make some moves in the next 2 weeks.  

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, baul0010 said:

The offense hasn't been the issue this year.  Many to most losses are falling squarely on the bullpen.  It doesn't take an experienced baseball mind to see what the number 1 issue the Twins have.  

Uh, that’s not true. How many 1-0 or 2-1 games were lost? Or not coming through in the 10th with a man on 2nd? Those are on the offense, imo. If the offense scores 3 or less in a game and we lose by 1 run, I consider that an offensive failure. Although, overall, some of that happens, but our offense has been very streaky this year, and seems to be feast or famine. 
 

(And I haven’t gone back to research my ‘eye test’ and memory-based opinion, so could be wrong, but I still think the offense has been incredibly inconsistent.)

[Nine of twelve]

2 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Uh, that’s not true. How many 1-0 or 2-1 games were lost? Or not coming through in the 10th with a man on 2nd? Those are on the offense, imo. If the offense scores 3 or less in a game and we lose by 1 run, I consider that an offensive failure. Although, overall, some of that happens, but our offense has been very streaky this year, and seems to be feast or famine. 
 

(And I haven’t gone back to research my ‘eye test’ and memory-based opinion, so could be wrong, but I still think the offense has been incredibly inconsistent.)

I don't think I totally agree. I think low scoring games are almost always due to good pitching and rarely due to poor offense.

I'll paraphrase a famous bit of writing. And now these three remain: batting, fielding and pitching. But the greatest of these is pitching.

Thus has it ever been, thus shall it ever be.

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Nine of twelve said:

I don't think I totally agree. I think low scoring games are almost always due to good pitching and rarely due to poor offense.

I'll paraphrase a famous bit of writing. And now these three remain: batting, fielding and pitching. But the greatest of these is pitching.

Thus has it ever been, thus shall it ever be.

I’d agree if we were facing ace pitching each and every time we failed to score. How many times have the bases been loaded and 1 or 0 outs and we score only 1 or less? That’s not pitching, that’s offense not doing it’s job. If we can load the bases, we should be able to score. I agree that sometimes it’s pitching, but many times it’s not. Our offense has been very streaky inconsistent and not been able to take advantage when they should