Game Thread: Twins @ Tigers, 6/2/22, 12:10PM CDT (10:10AM PDT)

[9moons27]

Taylor Rogers would look good right about now. Especially considering the return the Twins got. A washed up reliever and an already injured medicore starter. Plus they gave the Padres a bunch of money.

[Aggies7]

13 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't know how else to explain this. The stance you're attempting to take here is literally that the hitters would try harder, or become better, if they're down instead of up. If that's the case the team is screwed anyways. I don't care what inning they fall behind in because it doesn't matter. The hitters don't magically get better because they're trailing in the 7th. Either they're going to get hits and score or they aren't. There's no magic boost based on the inning. 

The Twins got 27 outs today. They scored 2 runs. The Tigers got 24 outs today and scored 3 runs. Claiming the Twins would've scored more than 2 runs in their 27 outs had the Tigers only scored 1 run in their first 24 outs is not the logical argument you think it is.

 

13 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't know how else to explain this. The stance you're attempting to take here is literally that the hitters would try harder, or become better, if they're down instead of up. If that's the case the team is screwed anyways. I don't care what inning they fall behind in because it doesn't matter. The hitters don't magically get better because they're trailing in the 7th. Either they're going to get hits and score or they aren't. There's no magic boost based on the inning. 

The Twins got 27 outs today. They scored 2 runs. The Tigers got 24 outs today and scored 3 runs. Claiming the Twins would've scored more than 2 runs in their 27 outs had the Tigers only scored 1 run in their first 24 outs is not the logical argument you think it is.

The simple argument I’m making is that no one knew how the game was going to unfold going into the bottom of the sixth. You yourself admitted that pagan is no longer effective. Duran was not going to pitch the final 4 innings. If you use a less effective pitcher in the 6th inning and he coughs up the lead at least then you have  3 at bats to come back. Rocco decided to save the guy who’s proven to be unreliable in the 8th or 9th instead of the guy who’s been lights out in that situation. What the offense did or has been doing is irrelevant. It’s the manager’s job to put the best guys in the situations where they give the team the best chance to win. It’s not Rocco’s fault archer went 4 innings, it’s not his fault we have so few reliable arms. But it is his call who to use and when and pagan should not be used in the 8th or 9th. You’re arguing the opposite. Which is fine but you’re in the tiny minority 

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, SwainZag said:

Closer is the most overrated position in the game.  Duran came in face the 1-6 hitters in the lineup and did his job.  Put the best arm to face the best hitters in tight games.  

The issue again was 2 runs of offense.   It doesn't relieve Pagan from giving up a HR to one of the worst hitters in the roster, but score same damn runs. 

Yeah, here's the thing though--assuming that Duran faced the minimum in innings 6 and 7, batters 7-9 were due up in the eighth and 1-3 in the ninth.  So Rocco chose to use by far his best bullpen option in lower leverage situations against batters that were likely/guaranteed to come up again in a higher leverage situation.  If Rocco had used Duran in the 8th to face hitters 2-4, that's a no brainer.  But your best relief arm should never be used in the 6th inning, since any player batting in the 6th is guaranteed to appear again in the 9th, if not sooner.

Further, when you only have one truly solid option in your bullpen, you need to ensure that option is only used in games you are almost assured of winning (assuming the pitcher does his job).  Today is perhaps different, if as speculated Duran will not be travelling to Toronto; otherwise, Duran is now unavailable for a game the Twins could win tomorrow, because you used him too early in a game the Twins had a decent chance of losing even with his stellar performance.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Yeah, here's the thing though--assuming that Duran faced the minimum in innings 6 and 7, batters 7-9 were due up in the eighth and 1-3 in the ninth.  So Rocco chose to use by far his best bullpen option in lower leverage situations against batters that were likely/guaranteed to come up again in a higher leverage situation.  If Rocco had used Duran in the 8th to face hitters 2-4, that's a no brainer.  But your best relief arm should never be used in the 6th inning, since any player batting in the 6th is guaranteed to appear again in the 9th, if not sooner.

Further, when you only have one truly solid option in your bullpen, you need to ensure that option is only used in games you are almost assured of winning (assuming the pitcher does his job).  Today is perhaps different, if as speculated Duran will not be travelling to Toronto; otherwise, Duran is now unavailable for a game the Twins could win tomorrow, because you used him too early in a game the Twins had a decent chance of losing even with his stellar performance.

THANK YOU

[Richie the Rally Goat]

[Cap'n Piranha]

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't know how else to explain this. The stance you're attempting to take here is literally that the hitters would try harder, or become better, if they're down instead of up. If that's the case the team is screwed anyways. I don't care what inning they fall behind in because it doesn't matter. The hitters don't magically get better because they're trailing in the 7th. Either they're going to get hits and score or they aren't. There's no magic boost based on the inning. 

The Twins got 27 outs today. They scored 2 runs. The Tigers got 24 outs today and scored 3 runs. Claiming the Twins would've scored more than 2 runs in their 27 outs had the Tigers only scored 1 run in their first 24 outs is not the logical argument you think it is.

The argument is that information is good.  Knowing the situation is helpful.  Knowing that you need to score or you will lose can indeed be of a benefit to the hitters.  Perhaps you'll make different decisions knowing you're on pace to lose, as opposed to on pace to win.

Also, not saying I agree with him, but the argument is not the Twins would score more if the Tigers only scored 1 in 24 outs as opposed to 3 in 24 outs.  The argument is that the Twins would score more if the Tigers had score 3 in 18 outs, as opposed to 3 in 24 outs.  If you disagree with the idea that it is better to fail behind early rather than late (assuming the margin is the same), what you're saying is that it is of no benefit to the home team to bat last, since the only advantage to batting last is having the knowledge of how many runs you need to score to avoid losing.

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

So you'd rather see Duran hold a deficit against the bottom of the order rather than the actual lead against the top? 

Since Duran is the only reliable option right now, I'd rather see him not pitch in games the Twins lose, so he can be saved for games the Twins win (in large part because he shut the door in the 8th/9th inning).  That did not happen today.

[rwilfong86]

54 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why? The hitters would actually try in the 7th, 8th, and 9th if they'd been losing?

No, mathematically there are more chances to score one run when you have a minimum of 9 batters than a minimum of 3. It isn't rocket science.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

 

The simple argument I’m making is that no one knew how the game was going to unfold going into the bottom of the sixth. You yourself admitted that pagan is no longer effective. Duran was not going to pitch the final 4 innings. If you use a less effective pitcher in the 6th inning and he coughs up the lead at least then you have  3 at bats to come back. Rocco decided to save the guy who’s proven to be unreliable in the 8th or 9th instead of the guy who’s been lights out in that situation. What the offense did or has been doing is irrelevant. It’s the manager’s job to put the best guys in the situations where they give the team the best chance to win. It’s not Rocco’s fault archer went 4 innings, it’s not his fault we have so few reliable arms. But it is his call who to use and when and pagan should not be used in the 8th or 9th. You’re arguing the opposite. Which is fine but you’re in the tiny minority 

I am not in the tiny minority, but that's besides the point. The number of ABs left to comeback doesn't matter. At all. It doesn't make the Twins hitters try harder or become better. I get that it makes you feel better knowing they still have a chance, but it doesn't actually change anything.

Fun stats: Jhoan Duran ERA in the 8th inning- 7.11. Emilio Pagan ERA in 8th inning- 4.76. 
Pagan has allowed 4 earned runs in 16 innings pitched between the 8th and 9th inning- ERA of 2.25
Duran has allowed 5 earned runs in 14.1 innings pitched between the 8th and 9th inning- ERA of 3.19

I'm confused how that equals Pagan being "unreliable" in those innings, but Duran being "lights out."

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, LVTwinsfan said:

57 pitches by Archer.  His longest outing innings wise, but not number of pitches, he could have pitched 1 more.  It’s not like the bullpen is gonna shut them down 4 innings, Why do I get the feeling that they just don’t care about these games 

I was absolutely befuddled when I checked Gameday, and saw Archer was pulled after 57 pitches; in innings 4 and 5, he faced the minimum, giving up one single (that runner was thrown out trying to stretch to a double), and all on 19 pitches.  3rd time through the order be darned, when a pitcher is going like that, you let him keep going, but have him on a short leash--it's not like it's hard to buy a reliever 5 minutes to warm up if you need to.  Tell Archer to walk around the mound between every pitch, then have the pitching coach go talk to him, then signal the catcher to have a conference, then have the manager go out to chat for 30 seconds before taking the ball.

[rwilfong86]

20 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

 

The simple argument I’m making is that no one knew how the game was going to unfold going into the bottom of the sixth. You yourself admitted that pagan is no longer effective. Duran was not going to pitch the final 4 innings. If you use a less effective pitcher in the 6th inning and he coughs up the lead at least then you have  3 at bats to come back. Rocco decided to save the guy who’s proven to be unreliable in the 8th or 9th instead of the guy who’s been lights out in that situation. What the offense did or has been doing is irrelevant. It’s the manager’s job to put the best guys in the situations where they give the team the best chance to win. It’s not Rocco’s fault archer went 4 innings, it’s not his fault we have so few reliable arms. But it is his call who to use and when and pagan should not be used in the 8th or 9th. You’re arguing the opposite. Which is fine but you’re in the tiny minority 

You're absolutely right. 

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I am not in the tiny minority, but that's besides the point. The number of ABs left to comeback doesn't matter. At all. It doesn't make the Twins hitters try harder or become better. I get that it makes you feel better knowing they still have a chance, but it doesn't actually change anything.

Fun stats: Jhoan Duran ERA in the 8th inning- 7.11. Emilio Pagan ERA in 8th inning- 4.76. 
Pagan has allowed 4 earned runs in 16 innings pitched between the 8th and 9th inning- ERA of 2.25
Duran has allowed 5 earned runs in 14.1 innings pitched between the 8th and 9th inning- ERA of 3.19

I'm confused how that equals Pagan being "unreliable" in those innings, but Duran being "lights out."

Lol the cherry picker again. Duran had one high leverage situation where he failed. Allowing 2 earned runs in the 8th inning against Baltimore. The other runs came in games with the twins comfortably ahead against Oakland and boston. Pagan has three blown saves in the 8th inning along and easily could have had 2 or 3 others.

 

If you have watched the twins as much as you say, and you can honestly sit here and negatively compare Duran to pagan in the 8/9 innings, I really don’t know what to tell you. You’re trying hard to make a bad point, I’ll give you credit for that.

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Yeah, here's the thing though--assuming that Duran faced the minimum in innings 6 and 7, batters 7-9 were due up in the eighth and 1-3 in the ninth.  So Rocco chose to use by far his best bullpen option in lower leverage situations against batters that were likely/guaranteed to come up again in a higher leverage situation.  If Rocco had used Duran in the 8th to face hitters 2-4, that's a no brainer.  But your best relief arm should never be used in the 6th inning, since any player batting in the 6th is guaranteed to appear again in the 9th, if not sooner.

Further, when you only have one truly solid option in your bullpen, you need to ensure that option is only used in games you are almost assured of winning (assuming the pitcher does his job).  Today is perhaps different, if as speculated Duran will not be travelling to Toronto; otherwise, Duran is now unavailable for a game the Twins could win tomorrow, because you used him too early in a game the Twins had a decent chance of losing even with his stellar performance.

Yes, somebody was going to have to get the 1-2-3 hitters out again. Rocco decided to give his offense 2 more innings to extend the lead so his lesser pen arms didn't have to protect a 1 run lead by letting his best arm keep the score where it was. The offense failed. Feel free to disagree, but it's an awfully logical choice.

I don't follow the logic of the 2nd paragraph at all. The Twins could have won this game. They had a decent chance of losing because they couldn't score more than 2 and the rest of the pen couldn't get outs? But that's going to magically change? So don't use your best arm in super close games because other guys may be bad? There's no logic in your argument. 

The pen is bad. They need more guys. Saving Duran for only 9th innings doesn't fix the fact that other pen arms need to be able to get outs. It's simple. Use him while the team is still winning and give the offense a chance to extend the lead.

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I am not in the tiny minority, but that's besides the point. The number of ABs left to comeback doesn't matter. At all. It doesn't make the Twins hitters try harder or become better. I get that it makes you feel better knowing they still have a chance, but it doesn't actually change anything.

Fun stats: Jhoan Duran ERA in the 8th inning- 7.11. Emilio Pagan ERA in 8th inning- 4.76. 
Pagan has allowed 4 earned runs in 16 innings pitched between the 8th and 9th inning- ERA of 2.25
Duran has allowed 5 earned runs in 14.1 innings pitched between the 8th and 9th inning- ERA of 3.19

I'm confused how that equals Pagan being "unreliable" in those innings, but Duran being "lights out."

So from this we can glean that if given the option between being down 3-2 in the 7th, and 3-2 in the 9th, you would have no hesitation to pick the latter, since it makes no difference?

Is your argument here that Pagan is a superior pitcher to Duran, at least when it comes to the 8th and 9th?  If you're also going to use the SSS stats above you should probably mention that 3 of those ER for Duran came in the 8th of a game against Boston the Twins were winning 6-1, and Duran was there to eat innings in literally his third ever big league appearance.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Lol the cherry picker again. Duran had one high leverage situation where he failed. Allowing 2 earned runs in the 8th inning against Baltimore. The other runs came in games with the twins comfortably ahead against Oakland and boston.

 

If you have watched the twins as much as you say, and you can honestly sit here and negatively compare Duran to pagan in the 8/9 innings, I really don’t know what to tell you. You’re trying hard to make a bad point, I’ll give you credit for that.

You're the one who says 1 can get late inning outs and the other can't. I've literally provided you their late inning numbers. I'm sorry their stats don't match your perception.

Duran is better. Saving him for when they're losing isn't the miracle cure you think it is. Pagan, Duffey, Thielbar, Smith, anybody has to be able to get outs. The offense has to score runs. Pagan blowing the lead in the 6th isn't better. It might make you feel better, but it isn't. Then you're not using Duran at all since the team is losing. They wouldn't magically score runs because Duran is still available. That's not how it works.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

So from this we can glean that if given the option between being down 3-2 in the 7th, and 3-2 in the 9th, you would have no hesitation to pick the latter, since it makes no difference?

Is your argument here that Pagan is a superior pitcher to Duran, at least when it comes to the 8th and 9th?  If you're also going to use the SSS stats above you should probably mention that 3 of those ER for Duran came in the 8th of a game against Boston the Twins were winning 6-1, and Duran was there to eat innings in literally his third ever big league appearance.

It doesn't make a difference! It literally doesn't. They don't become better baseball players because of the inning. They just don't.

[Aggies7]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You're the one who says 1 can get late inning outs and the other can't. I've literally provided you their late inning numbers. I'm sorry their stats don't match your perception.

Duran is better. Saving him for when they're losing isn't the miracle cure you think it is. Pagan, Duffey, Thielbar, Smith, anybody has to be able to get outs. The offense has to score runs. Pagan blowing the lead in the 6th isn't better. It might make you feel better, but it isn't. Then you're not using Duran at all since the team is losing. They wouldn't magically score runs because Duran is still available. That's not how it works.

You’re right, more chances to score when you’re behind is always worse. I concede to that inarguable point

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

You’re right, more chances to score when you’re behind is always worse. I concede to that inarguable point

You don't get more chances to score because you're losing. The Twins got 27 outs today and scored 2 runs. The idea that they'd have performed differently had they been down 3-2 instead of up 2-1 is absurd. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Yes, somebody was going to have to get the 1-2-3 hitters out again. Rocco decided to give his offense 2 more innings to extend the lead so his lesser pen arms didn't have to protect a 1 run lead by letting his best arm keep the score where it was. The offense failed. Feel free to disagree, but it's an awfully logical choice.

I don't follow the logic of the 2nd paragraph at all. The Twins could have won this game. They had a decent chance of losing because they couldn't score more than 2 and the rest of the pen couldn't get outs? But that's going to magically change? So don't use your best arm in super close games because other guys may be bad? There's no logic in your argument. 

The pen is bad. They need more guys. Saving Duran for only 9th innings doesn't fix the fact that other pen arms need to be able to get outs. It's simple. Use him while the team is still winning and give the offense a chance to extend the lead.

Not particularly logical, actually.  As you've argued, hitters don't perform better whether they're trailing or not, so what does it matter if the lead gets coughed up in the 6th or the 8th?  Indeed, let's say the offense does score 4 runs across the 7th and 8th, and it's now a 6-1 game--wouldn't it have been better to save Duran for another day, even if lesser arms would have given up 2 runs in his innings?  After all, if Rocco doesn't trust his lesser arms to pitch to 9 ERAs, why are they on the roster?

The logic is crystal clear--when you only have one good bullpen option, save it for when it has the most impact on securing a win.  Pitching Duran in the 6th and 7th today only has an impact on the Twins winning if either the bullpen shuts the Tigers out in the 8th and 9th, or the offense score more runs.  If the bullpen other than Duran doesn't shut out the Tigers for 2 innings, then the Twins lose.  If the offense score more, you don't need Duran to protect the one run lead in the 6th/7th.  That's the point I'm making--since the non-Duran members of the bullpen needed to get 6 outs today, have them get the first 6 outs, and you can then see if there's any point to pitch Duran.  If it's still 2-1 in the 8th, bring on Duran.  If the pen implodes and it's 2-6, now you can save Duran.  If the offense gets it in gear, and now it's 5-1, you can save Duran.  When dealing with a shaky pen with only one good option, Jack Sparrow gives good advice--"Wait for the Opportune Moment".

I don't care about using Duran when the team is winning.  I care about using him when the team is winning, and using him (assuming he doesn't give up runs) guarantees or all but guarantees the win.  If Alcala comes back and slings it, and the Twins swing a trade for another great bullpen option, then I have no problem using Duran whenever.  I just don't understand the point of using Duran for only half of the outs left in the game when using him at the end of the game still means he'll face some, probably most, and potentially all of the same batters he's facing earlier in the game.

[Cap'n Piranha]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

It doesn't make a difference! It literally doesn't. They don't become better baseball players because of the inning. They just don't.

Then by your own definition, it mattered not at all that the Twins pitched Duran in the 6th/7th, and Pagan in the 8th; the opposite would have been exactly the same.  Given that, why are you spending so much time debating this?

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Not particularly logical, actually.  As you've argued, hitters don't perform better whether they're trailing or not, so what does it matter if the lead gets coughed up in the 6th or the 8th?  Indeed, let's say the offense does score 4 runs across the 7th and 8th, and it's now a 6-1 game--wouldn't it have been better to save Duran for another day, even if lesser arms would have given up 2 runs in his innings?  After all, if Rocco doesn't trust his lesser arms to pitch to 9 ERAs, why are they on the roster?

The logic is crystal clear--when you only have one good bullpen option, save it for when it has the most impact on securing a win.  Pitching Duran in the 6th and 7th today only has an impact on the Twins winning if either the bullpen shuts the Tigers out in the 8th and 9th, or the offense score more runs.  If the bullpen other than Duran doesn't shut out the Tigers for 2 innings, then the Twins lose.  If the offense score more, you don't need Duran to protect the one run lead in the 6th/7th.  That's the point I'm making--since the non-Duran members of the bullpen needed to get 6 outs today, have them get the first 6 outs, and you can then see if there's any point to pitch Duran.  If it's still 2-1 in the 8th, bring on Duran.  If the pen implodes and it's 2-6, now you can save Duran.  If the offense gets it in gear, and now it's 5-1, you can save Duran.  When dealing with a shaky pen with only one good option, Jack Sparrow gives good advice--"Wait for the Opportune Moment".

I don't care about using Duran when the team is winning.  I care about using him when the team is winning, and using him (assuming he doesn't give up runs) guarantees or all but guarantees the win.  If Alcala comes back and slings it, and the Twins swing a trade for another great bullpen option, then I have no problem using Duran whenever.  I just don't understand the point of using Duran for only half of the outs left in the game when using him at the end of the game still means he'll face some, probably most, and potentially all of the same batters he's facing earlier in the game.

Why are you assuming the lead is held in the 6th and 7th without Duran pitching? You don't think anyone else can get hitters out so why are you now claiming the pen would hold the lead when your base argument is they aren't good enough to hold leads?

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Then by your own definition, it mattered not at all that the Twins pitched Duran in the 6th/7th, and Pagan in the 8th; the opposite would have been exactly the same.  Given that, why are you spending so much time debating this?

Cuz my argument isn't about the inning, yours is. My argument is about the batters faced because I don't care about the inning. Throwing Duran in the 6th instead of 9th allowed him to face the 1-6 hitters instead of just the 1-3 (or whoever would've been up) because he could throw 2 innings.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

I liked that stadium

I agree. It turned out to be a beautiful day and my impression of a ballpark is always colored by that.  Much nicer than old Tiger Stadium.

[Cap'n Piranha]

13 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You're the one who says 1 can get late inning outs and the other can't. I've literally provided you their late inning numbers. I'm sorry their stats don't match your perception.

Duran is better. Saving him for when they're losing isn't the miracle cure you think it is. Pagan, Duffey, Thielbar, Smith, anybody has to be able to get outs. The offense has to score runs. Pagan blowing the lead in the 6th isn't better. It might make you feel better, but it isn't. Then you're not using Duran at all since the team is losing. They wouldn't magically score runs because Duran is still available. That's not how it works.

Not using Duran in games you're likely to lose is preferable.  As you point out, someone has to get the other outs.  If you cannot rely on someone to get those other outs, then responsible bullpen management dictates you find out first how reliable those other options will be.  Using today's game as an example, say Jax comes in, gives up a single, but gets the other 3 outs.  Then say Pagan comes in for the 7th, gives up a double then a walk, but gets the other 3 outs.  Now you can have Duran pitch the 8th and 9th (where he will face the exact same slate of hitters he actually faced in the 6th and 7th today), and get the win.  As opposed to what happened today, where you used up Duran, rendering him unavailable for tomorrow's game, and in a losing effort.

It's like if you have plans to meet a friend for dinner, but this friend has a habit of cancelling at the last minute.  Are you going to get in your car, drive across town, and sit down at the restaurant before checking to see if he's still coming, or after?

[Aggies7]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You don't get more chances to score because you're losing. The Twins got 27 outs today and scored 2 runs. The idea that they'd have performed differently had they been down 3-2 instead of up 2-1 is absurd. 

First off it’s not absurd, you’re assuming that tigers would have used the exact same pitchers for innings 7-9 had they taken the lead off of pagan in the 6th. And while arguably they could have used their better arms, who knows if the outcome would have been the same.

Rocco doesn’t know the outcome of this going into the bottom of the sixth. It I’m the manager and I’m being forced to use a guy who I know isn’t great (because the only good reliever can’t pitch the final 4 innings), then I’d prefer to use him when I have more opportunities to bat in the (more likely) event that he coughs up the lead.

 

im shocked this is so hard to understand 

[Cap'n Piranha]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why are you assuming the lead is held in the 6th and 7th without Duran pitching? You don't think anyone else can get hitters out so why are you now claiming the pen would hold the lead when your base argument is they aren't good enough to hold leads?

Gross mischaracterization of my argument.  I'm not assuming the lead is held in the 6th and 7th, nor am I assuming it is blown.  I'm saying the pen other than Duran is less reliable at holding leads, so I want to see if they will be able to hold the lead before I use up my only reliable option in Duran.  I don't want to use Duran if the team is trailing.  I don't want to use Duran if the team is going to lose--since that can't be known in advance, the best way to do that is to let Duran close out the game, unless there is a compelling reason not to (such as batters 2-4 due up in the 8th--I mentioned in a previous post that I would be in favor of that).

[rwilfong86]

The Blue Jays are taking care of the White Sox, so they've not gained any ground. But the Twins are getting a red hot Blue Jays team this weekend ?

[Aggies7]

I just don’t know how many more times pagan can fail or almost fail in the 8th:9th innings until I can stop arguing with people that he shouldn’t be used in that situation 

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

First off it’s not absurd, you’re assuming that tigers would have used the exact same pitchers for innings 7-9 had they taken the lead off of pagan in the 6th. And while arguably they could have used their better arms, who knows if the outcome would have been the same.

Rocco doesn’t know the outcome of this going into the bottom of the sixth. It I’m the manager and I’m being forced to use a guy who I know isn’t great (because the only good reliever can’t pitch the final 4 innings), then I’d prefer to use him when I have more opportunities to bat in the (more likely) event that he coughs up the lead.

 

im shocked this is so hard to understand 

So you didn't want to trust Pagan to get the 7-9 hitters out (apparently just because it was the 8th inning), but you wanted to trust him to get the 1-3 hitters out? You then wanted to trust someone else not named Duran (since it'd only be the 7th and you need him for the 8th or 9th) to get the 4-6 hitters out. Now it's the 8th and your argument has been that only certain guys can be trusted there so I'm guessing you wanted Smith to get the 8th and pitch to the 7-9 hitters. Then have Duran around to get the 1-3 hitters in the 9th. That's the smart move. Having Pagan and other crappy reliever face 1-6 just cuz it's not the 8th or 9th, then use one of your 2 good relievers to get the bottom of the order and have the other get the top. Rocco wanted his bad reliever to face the bottom of the order while using his good relievers to both face the top. But Rocco is the crazy one. Got it. 

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I just don’t know how many more times pagan can fail or almost fail in the 8th:9th innings until I can stop arguing with people that he shouldn’t be used in that situation 

As many times as it takes for the Twins to have more than 1 or 2 good relievers or for baseball to get rid of the 8th and 9th innings so they don't happen every game.