Orioles 9, Twins 4: Bad Start, Bad Defense, and Bad Luck

[prouster]

10 hours ago, Monticore said:

Winnable game. The team showed real character. But, Baldelli's will o' the wisp foolishness took the wind out of the sails of the team. Why would he slot another inning for a pitcher (Bundy) whose day it clearly was not? It made no logical sense. It was delusional, pernicious, jejeune. If you lack the requisite common sense to know when a pitcher is done for the day - you shouldn't be an MLB Manager. They admirably fight back from an 0-6 hole in the very next frame, and then the fey manager instantly douses the team spirit and kills the momentum with a vain hope.

Personally, I think the one who dashed hopes and killed spirits was Bundy. Baldelli probably should have pulled him, but ultimately the guy on the mound has to get hitters out. 

[Karbo]

A few take aways; If Buxton was playing (I guess Rocco thinks he needs 1 or 2 days off per week now) the 4th inning probably doesn't get away. That 1st ball is caught and you never get that deep into the inning IMO. Why was Bundy left in for another inning? Rocco was plenty quick to use the hook on Ryan our presumed ace, yet he gave Bundy so much rope he could have hung himself twice. Also, how unlucky do you have to be to hit the ball so hard at so many infielders to hit into so many DP's. Lastly, I wonder if the boys have heard or read too much about their D lately, as it sure looked like a couple of times they were just hoping for a miracle.

[bighat]

There was a waterfall of key plays and moments in this game - seemed like they just kept happening!  Seeing-eye bloop hits from Baltimore and misplays by the Twins in the field were taking place every inning.

However, the back-breaking moment in my opinion was when Celestino hits a line drive missile that nails Sanchez for the final out of the inning. That hit was headed to right field to make the game 6-5 with Arraez and Correa coming up to bat. Instead it stays 6-4 and the inning is over.

Rocco was trying to steal one more inning from Bundy there - it's classic Rocco, that's what he does, and frankly I can live with it. Bundy's pitched pretty well this year aside from a couple bad innings, Rocco's thinking if this guy can just get 3 more outs we might have a chance.

PS - how about that catch from Gordon? That was maybe the best OF catch we've seen all year on this team. Also nice to see Gordon deliver a key hit in that rally as well. He's turning into a nice utility piece for this team.

[Kipp35]

Well, at least our $100 million dollar man got to take his "scheduled" day off. I would hate to see him out there helping his team too much. Kinda feel like he gets enough days off with all of his injuries, he should be out there when he is available.

[Whitey333]

There's always going to be bad games in a long season.  What was really bad was the team at least for one day looked like the 16 games under .500 twins team from last year.  Yuck!!  Sending Bundy back out there after the team just scored runs to get back in the game was inexcusable.  Anyone could see he didn't have it.  Also giving Buxton another day off is a joke.  Granted the way the team played they may have lost anyway but why does Buxton need a rest.  Now he's missed 9 of the teams first 25 games.  I realize some of that was due to injury (again) but it was his 3rd scheduled day off.  When this team falls out of contention, I hope it does not, it will be because of Baldelli.  Clearly one of the poorest managers in MLB

[singlesoverwalks]

10 hours ago, darwin22 said:

I was saying exactly the same thing.  I sure don't understand Rocco's thinking as it was quite evident that Bundy was spent after allowing those 6 runs.  You could make the argument Bundy deserved better as Miranda should've caught that line drive that for the 3rd out and made a poor throw behind Bundy the following inning.  Saying that, Bundy's lack of command---back to back walks, imo, should've resulted in getting hooked, but Rocco did nothing.  Nothing.

Team was, I guess, due for a clunker, but this 2nd consecutive BAD start by Bundy is making my thinking flashback to the quick (predictable) regression Martin Perez had a few years ago.  Hopefully, Gray will be back very soon as well as Ober.

There's a weird tendency with Rocco to pull starters early when they're doing well and stick with them when they're having a bad game. I guess he sees it as motivational?

[Puckett34]

Win some, lose some. I once read or heard somewhere that in nearly every MLB season with every team, you'll win 50 games and you'll lose 50 games, it's what you do with the other 62 that matters.  Hopefully this one was one of the 50 losses. New day today! Hope Bundy can get right quick or else he'll start looking like this:

[Harrison Greeley III]

May 4th, and it was the first time they scored >3 runs and lost. 

[chpettit19]

Pretty bad game all around. Correa with an error. Miranda not a great showing defensively (one ball hit 99.6 and another at 107 was encouraging, though!). Celestino with a ball or 2 he probably should've caught. Correa's relay sailing a little on him and missing the out at the plate. Sanchez wearing one off the bat on what would've been a run scoring single. Bundy having 2 blowup innings. 5 DPs hit into. Was just one of those games. Flush it an move on. Don't need to fire Baldelli or start cutting people cuz of 1 game. It was just 1 game.

[bighat]

32 minutes ago, Puckett34 said:

Win some, lose some. I once read or heard somewhere that in nearly every MLB season with every team, you'll win 50 games and you'll lose 50 games, it's what you do with the other 62 that matters.

 

Tell that to the Cincinnati Reds, who are 3-21. They might be wondering about where those 50 wins are going to come from right about now. Speaking of sad, non-Twins related stuff: Nelson Cruz is hitting .143 so far this year with 2 HRs. He's 2 for his last 38 and hasn't had a multiple-hit game in almost a month. This has to be his last year, right?

 

 

[Riverbrian]

39 minutes ago, Puckett34 said:

Win some, lose some. I once read or heard somewhere that in nearly every MLB season with every team, you'll win 50 games and you'll lose 50 games, it's what you do with the other 62 that matters.  Hopefully this one was one of the 50 losses. New day today! Hope Bundy can get right quick or else he'll start looking like this:

It's 54-54-54

Every team will win 54

Every team will lose 54

It's the other 54 that matter. 

It's perhaps my favorite baseball quote. 

[Riverbrian]

3 minutes ago, bighat said:

Tell that to the Cincinnati Reds, who are 3-21. They might be wondering about where those 50 wins are going to come from right about now. Speaking of sad, non-Twins related stuff: Nelson Cruz is hitting .143 so far this year with 2 HRs. He's 2 for his last 38 and hasn't had a multiple-hit game in almost a month. This has to be his last year, right?

 

 

I have nothing against the Reds organization but there is a part of me that would like to see a team lose 130 games during a season just so I can witness it.  

[Alex Schieferdecker]

Defense seems to have gotten away from the solid fundamentals we saw the previous week. Bundy is extremely hittable, so he needs major help from the folks behind him. He's a good candidate to drop into a long relief role when Gray and Ober return, I wonder if he'd be willing to accept that.

On the positive side, Jovani Moran was brilliant. He was still a little wild, but he kept it mostly under control and some close calls went against him. Can't argue with 4 K and 0 BB. He was getting swings and misses on his 90-92 mph fastball, which makes me wonder if he's got some deception to the pitch as well, or if people are just so scared of his change that the fastball surprises them.

[PDX Twin]

My time-addled memory is hazy, but I seem to remember plaudits for Bundy last week for having a terrible early inning and then going back out and eating up 3-4 more to save the bullpen. It didn't work out this time, but the manager had that precedent for thinking that it might.

[bighat]

14 minutes ago, PDX Twin said:

My time-addled memory is hazy, but I seem to remember plaudits for Bundy last week for having a terrible early inning and then going back out and eating up 3-4 more to save the bullpen. It didn't work out this time, but the manager had that precedent for thinking that it might.

 

I don't blame Rocco for thinking he could get away with it again, especially since Bundy overall has been pretty good this year. But I think after last night, that experiment is over and moving forward nobody's going to find any more "moral victories" resulting from Bundy getting shelled in the first couple innings.

[TwinsAce]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Pretty bad game all around. Correa with an error. Miranda not a great showing defensively (one ball hit 99.6 and another at 107 was encouraging, though!). Celestino with a ball or 2 he probably should've caught. Correa's relay sailing a little on him and missing the out at the plate. Sanchez wearing one off the bat on what would've been a run scoring single. Bundy having 2 blowup innings. 5 DPs hit into. Was just one of those games. Flush it an move on. Don't need to fire Baldelli or start cutting people cuz of 1 game. It was just 1 game.

Agreed - the defense was what shocked me.  But at the same time, our starting lineup was mostly put together from secondary players.  In addition to the three you mentioned above for defense, Gordon also misread a short flyball to left field that I think he should have caught.  Arraez missed a grounder up the middle through the shift that IMO, Polanco probably would have gotten.  In a game where the offense scored more than 4 runs, the defense did us in.  (Plus Bundy probably struggling mentally after all of the defensive miscues.)

[Riverbrian]

Agreed

And it's possible that Celestino not reaching that ball was a consideration. 

However, the way I see it from my living room.

1. This wasn't the 1st inning he had already ate some innings. 

2. His pitch count was already up. The bullpen was going to be necessary regardless of how he performed in the next inning.

3. This was the 2nd game in a row of hanging a 6. 

 

I merely question the decision but I don't feel the need to burn the house down over it. The team gets to compete again tonight.   

 

 

 

[dex8425]

24 minutes ago, Alex Schieferdecker said:

Defense seems to have gotten away from the solid fundamentals we saw the previous week. Bundy is extremely hittable, so he needs major help from the folks behind him. He's a good candidate to drop into a long relief role when Gray and Ober return, I wonder if he'd be willing to accept that.

On the positive side, Jovani Moran was brilliant. He was still a little wild, but he kept it mostly under control and some close calls went against him. Can't argue with 4 K and 0 BB. He was getting swings and misses on his 90-92 mph fastball, which makes me wonder if he's got some deception to the pitch as well, or if people are just so scared of his change that the fastball surprises them.

TBH, if he pitches himself out of the rotation, I'd rather just cut him. Who do you bump from the long relief role in the bullpen currently? I'd rather have Winder Archer Ober or Jax in that role. Then you have Sands also on the 40man, and Smeltzer pitching really well at AAA.   

[jmlease1]

19 minutes ago, PDX Twin said:

My time-addled memory is hazy, but I seem to remember plaudits for Bundy last week for having a terrible early inning and then going back out and eating up 3-4 more to save the bullpen. It didn't work out this time, but the manager had that precedent for thinking that it might.

Accurate. Bundy got jumped on by TB for 4 in the 1st in his last start, gave up another run in the 2nd and 3rd, then threw 3 more shutout innings. Bundy's first 3 starts, he had Game Scores of 66, 60, and 63 which is quite good. (I like Game Score as a single metric for evaluating a starter's performance; it's not perfect but it's useful and fairly easy to understand for a game-by-game metric) I understand the thinking behind trying to get another inning or two out of him: he didn't have an absurd pitch count, and the first 2 innings had gone fine. Didn't pan out, but I get the thought process, especially since we'd since Bundy settle down before and claw throw  more innings

[Aerodeliria]

13 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Gotta admit. I didn't really understand Bundy getting another inning after hanging a 6 on the board. 

Tomorrow is another day. 

Agreed. I was saying pull him after it was 3-0. He was getting hit hard. He only recorded two more outs and faced a bunch more batters. That was a head-scratcher.

[heresthething]

2 hours ago, bighat said:

 

I don't blame Rocco for thinking he could get away with it again, especially since Bundy overall has been pretty good this year. But I think after last night, that experiment is over and moving forward nobody's going to find any more "moral victories" resulting from Bundy getting shelled in the first couple innings.

And this is where we find out if the coach and FO have learned from the last couple of years about hanging on too long to a failed signing.  Then again, maybe they're looking at the standings and thinking "meh" it's just a bad stretch for Bundy, we're still ok.  We'll see...

[Epravens]

Just the most recent example that Rocco is unable to manage a baseball game and chew gum at the same time. Perhaps he was nearing a personal best at PacMan and neglected to look up from his laptop long enough to notice what was taking place on the field, On a positive note he's doing his lineup for a week from Friday and has decided it will be time to give Buxton another "planned" day off. Many good things so far this season but the manager is an albatross who must be given his walking players for this team to truly succeed.

 

[Trov]

Games like last night will happen in a 162 game season.  Not worth dwelling on it.  Just about every break went against the Twins in that one.  Just do not let it compound to additional games.  My biggest concern is this is 2 starts in a row where Bundy was not good.  I would agree better defense and he most likely does not give up nearly as many runs.  For sure in the 4th they only give up a couple.  The first hit should have been caught but the CF broke so late.  Miranda had a ball go through his glove as well.  However, Bundy still gave up some HR and hard contact as well as a couple of bad walks.  I just hope this is not a sign of Bundy moving forward and that Rocco does not keep sending him out there if he is cooked. We have depth we do not need to send out a vet that keeps losing just because we have them. I am willing to give Bundy a few more starts after his first three very good starts, and even last one he settled in for a few good innings, but lets not replay JA Happ and Shoemaker of last year. 

[Epravens]

11 hours ago, Mark G said:

Couldn't have said it better myself.  I tried saying this last year and got chewed out, albeit somewhat mildly.  Last year only Donaldson, Simmons, and Buxton (and we all know how many games he played) played the same (and only) position they are designed to play.  Even Sano saw a day or two at 3rd.  Now, having said that, I don't count catchers in this mix, although if they play 1st, as Garver was known to do once in a while, or DH, that is playing out of position as well.  This year the names have changed, but the positions haven't.  This is just who Rocco was, is, and always will be.  The same for the pitching changes (or lack thereof?).  We overcame him in '19 with 307 homeruns.  We couldn't overcome him last year, and the jury is out right now for '22.  He believes that everyone needs to play as regularly as possible, and he will find a spot for them somewhere.  I have said forever that you need to find where a player excels, or at least is as good as he can be, and put him there.  Yes, I know, that means regular players and reserves; not exactly the thinking today it appears.  I have also been a proponent of starters and relievers playing their roles, and some of you might remember where that has gotten me as well (you may be the ones who tried educating me).    

Regulars and reserves, starters and relievers.  Put players where they play the best, and find a lineup where hitters strengths and weaknesses are where you want them.  Too old fashioned?  Apparently.  Instead we get a musical chairs lineup in the field, at the plate, and on the mound.  Rocco's computer likes it that way.  Personally, it makes my head spin. I hope we have a mix of players who can make it work.  I will be the first to congratulate them if they do.  

Well said. To compare Rocco (the worst manager in team history) to TK (the best manager in team history) one of them believed you put players in the best possible position for them to succeed.

[minman1982]

16 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Gotta admit. I didn't really understand Bundy getting another inning after hanging a 6 on the board. 

Tomorrow is another day. 

I have to agree.  If the Twins went down 1-2-3 in the top of the 4th, maybe you could argue that sending Bundy back out for another inning of work is a smart way to protect your bullpen since your offense clearly isn't performing either. 

The Twins tried their best to claw out of a six-run hole, and almost did it.  The fact that this was clearly a winnable game when the bottom of the fourth started should have paved the way for the bullpen (which has been outstanding as of late) to take over.  With the number of starters we currently have and how well some of the others are performing, I would have to believe that Bundy's days as a Twins starter are coming to an end pretty soon.

[cHawk]

2 hours ago, Epravens said:

Well said. To compare Rocco (the worst manager in team history) to TK (the best manager in team history) one of them believed you put players in the best possible position for them to succeed.

****ing really man? How on earth is he the worst manager in team history? Jeepers.

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, minman1982 said:

I have to agree.  If the Twins went down 1-2-3 in the top of the 4th, maybe you could argue that sending Bundy back out for another inning of work is a smart way to protect your bullpen since your offense clearly isn't performing either. 

The Twins tried their best to claw out of a six-run hole, and almost did it.  The fact that this was clearly a winnable game when the bottom of the fourth started should have paved the way for the bullpen (which has been outstanding as of late) to take over.  With the number of starters we currently have and how well some of the others are performing, I would have to believe that Bundy's days as a Twins starter are coming to an end pretty soon.

Agreed... the Twins rally is another thing that I considered. The team is fighting back. Bring in a fresh arm to hold serve. Let's see if they can keep fighting. 

Just spit balling but I think Managers are careful when the bullpen gets up and if they get up, they get in so they don't heat up for no reason. 

I'm assuming that once he decided that Dylan was going out for the next inning... it's a good chance that nobody was getting lathered up so the rally wouldn't have been part of the decision making. 

 

Maybe... Rocco is trying to show faith in his guy like he did in Tampa.

Just spit balling because I would have had the pen going before the 6th run plated that inning.

It's hard watching wheels fall off without a call to the pen. When the 2nd wheel hits the ditch after the first wheel bounced off the windshield of a Subaru it's time to make a call.  Once the pen is up... they go in.  

I don't know... maybe someone was tossing in the pen. I'm just spit balling.   

In the end, I just don't get the extra inning of work for Bundy.  ?

 

[USAFChief]

36 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

 

In the end, I just don't get the extra inning of work for Bundy.  ?

 

He didn't get an extra inning from Bundy. He got 2/3rds (at the cost of 3 runs).

Again, as is often the case, sticking with a starter too long doesn't "eat innings".

The Twins needed a reliever in the 4th despite sending Bundy back out there. 

[Riverbrian]

28 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

He didn't get an extra inning from Bundy. He got 2/3rds (at the cost of 3 runs).

Again, as is often the case, sticking with a starter too long doesn't "eat innings".

The Twins needed a reliever in the 4th despite sending Bundy back out there. 

Agreed

Bundy was at 60 pitches after 3 innings so the question becomes how many more innings could Rocco milk out of him in order to preserve the pen if that is what he was attempting to do.

The Bullpen was going to be needed to throw significant innings regardless if he had a clean 4th (Which he didn't).

Also, we had a total of 6 relievers who did not throw on Tuesday... 4 of those 6 relievers who did not throw on Tuesday threw on Monday, and of the 4 who threw on Monday only Pagan threw more than 15 pitches. No Reliever has pitched in back to back days over the last week so the bullpen was pretty fresh. So, I have a question about how much bullpen preservation was necessary at the time. 

In the end though... it was the wheels coming off in the third that trumps the pitch count and bullpen preservation. 

I acknowledge the role that Celestino and Miranda played defensively that inning to extend the problem. 

However, In the 3rd inning alone Bundy threw 28 pitches. Almost half of those pitches were balls. Not to mention two home runs and a mound visit after walking back to back hitters on 9 pitches.  

I look at all of that and I fail to understand how he gets the ball to start the 4th. The Bullpen should have started heating up during the mound visit after the two walks at the latest. 

Well... Tingler will have a real fresh bullpen to work with tonight.