Can Change-of-Scenery Help Sanchez?

[jmlease1]

23 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Yes, Rortvedt is actually a better catcher and it isn't even close. The Yankees were forced to change their thinking on catchers last season .... by their pitchers. There is nothing a pitcher can do to succeed if they cannot throw the ball in the dirt occasionally and trust their catcher. Sanchez is no more a catcher than Sano would be. He has awesome power and may be great DH. The Yankees never trade a player because of money, they trade players because they lack the skills needed to help their team win games. The Yankees only care about winning.

You're basically saying that it doesn't matter what the player's offense is, the only metric that matters for assessing how good a catcher is, is how good they are on defense. And I'm sorry, if that kind of assessment was ok Andrelton Simmons might still be our SS.

You're also saying the Yankees completely changed their thinking on catching last season...but did they? Sanchez played 117 games last season; he appears as a catcher in 110 of them. He only DH'd 5 times. he started 100 games at catcher and had 92 complete games at the position. Look at his starts by month:

• March/April: 18
• May: 18
• June: 20
• July: 18
• Aug: 13
• Sept: 18

Doesn't really look like they changed all that much, does it?

And the Yankees care about money too; if they didn't they would have signed Correa or Story to play SS for them rather than trade for IK-F. They just operate on a little different scale than we do.

Bottom line: if Rortvedt doesn't substantially improve his hitting, he will not be a better player than Sanchez next season, at catcher or any other position on the field. the Yankees may be willing to sacrifice offense at catcher and feel like they have enough elsewhere to navigate it, and that it's more important to their formula to have better defense consistently at catcher, and that's all fine. Rortvedt might be a better FIT for them next season and going forward...but right now I'd bet the under on him being a better overall player than Sanchez for next season. And I say this as someone who has been a big Rortvedt supporter. But he was horrendously bad at the plate last season and there's evidence in his minor league history to suggest he's never going to be a good hitter in MLB.

[MN_ExPat]

4 hours ago, miracleb said:

Oh boy......2-3 days later.......and we are already working the "change of scenery" angle?  Next week:  "He really worked on his pitch framing in the off season........"

So what?  Why the desire to find fault with a player in such a manner and then turn on other fans who choose to find hope in the situation?  Was I crazy about picking up Sanchez? Umm... no, definitely not a choice I would have made.  Still, me bashing others solves nothing (especially in print where human inflections and context in speech and communication are missing).  

Comments like the above and others of its ilk fall into the realm of "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."  If you don't agree with it... tell us why you don't, not that another person is wrong or dumb for being hopeful.  Even if it's emotionally driven, I think most people can understand that.

[Scott51104]

Earlier today, after reading some comments by Hershel Walker, I revisited The Trade. By comparison, the Twins-Yankees trade was better for Minnesota.

[Mike Sixel]

He could get better, yes. It's not like he doesn't have a history of being good.

That said? I'm not holding my breath. I'd rather see him at DH than catching....but then what about Sano/Kiriloff? Is AK in left field? 

[ashbury]

5 hours ago, miracleb said:

Oh boy......2-3 days later.......and we are already working the "change of scenery" angle?  Next week:  "He really worked on his pitch framing in the off season........"

Gotta sandwich in that he reported to camp in the best shape of his career.

[ashbury]

4 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

I’m wondering how many of us on the TD (understanding how smart we are as stay-at-home GMs) would take Sanchez over Rortvedt straight up?  I would not. IMHO, it goes to show how badly the FO wanted to move JD.

Save that thought for the Urshela puff piece, as well.

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, strumdatjag said:

Is there any way to get La Tortuga back?? 

Sure!  Now that the lockout is over, trades are possible again. 

If we can't pry any pitching from the Marlins, perhaps they'll give us Astudillo in return for one of our prospect arms.

[jmlease1]

25 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

He could get better, yes. It's not like he doesn't have a history of being good.

That said? I'm not holding my breath. I'd rather see him at DH than catching....but then what about Sano/Kiriloff? Is AK in left field? 

I'd put Kirilloff in LF. We won't be great defensively, but he'll be ok. Although I might consider shifting kepler over and having Kirilloff in RF, but they seem adverse to moving Kepler?

[TheLeviathan]

Yankees fans are pretty happy to be rid of Sanchez, that's definitely a problem.  He was a league average catcher offensively last year but he has pedigree.  Maybe the New York thing was weighing on him.

Urshela, on the other hand, reads like the Eduardo Escobar of that team.  A glue guy with a of grit and personality.  Yankees fans are not happy to see him go and are not happy with Cashman for how he treated the exit.  (Google "yankees fans urshela", the reads are interesting if nothing else!)

[IndianaTwin]

3 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

Look, I've been as big a Ben Rortvedt supporter as anyone on this site, but unless he developed his hitting a lot in the offseason...Ben Rortvedt is not actually a better catcher than Gary Sanchez right now. Rortvedt was so horrible on offense that it wiped out all of his value on defense. Sanchez was roughly league average as a hitter and didn't have a good year. Defensively, he's below average, but he's not actually the complete horror show that he's being portrayed as. But his biggest weaknesses is in blocking the plate which shows out more obviously than anything. Historically, he's given up too many passed balls and doesn't protect his pitchers well against wild pitches. And when he's not hitting well, those are magnified even more. Sanchez was worth 1.5 fWAR and 0.7 bWAR last year. YMMV on which measure you trust more. Rortvedt was worth 0.2 fWAR and -0.1 bWAR. There's a real possibility that Rortvedt is simply not going to hit in MLB; it was always the fear with him. 

I'm not expecting sanchez to suddenly have a renaissance now that he's out of NYC, but deciding that Ben Rortvedt will now develop into a quality starting catcher in NYC is assuming a lot. His defense is good enough for him to be a backup (and Sanchez's offense is good enough for him to do the same, frankly), but let's not put on the rose-colored glasses about Ben Rortvedt just because we're mad at the front office.

The average of 7 projection systems used by Fangraphs have Sanchez being with 1.6 fWAR for 2022. For Rortvedt, it's 0.9 fWAR. (admittedly, a couple of these have Rortvedt playing very little time, but even if you quadrupled his time...Rortvedt's average comes in at 1.3 fWAR, and all of these projections have Rortvedt being a significantly better hitter in 2022)

I was optimistic about Rortvedt as well, but I think you’re right, jmlease1.

To build on this: 

Player A

• 98 AB in his first major league season, with a .169/.281/.510 and 41 OPS+.
• Career .241/.355/.672 slash line in five minor league seasons. 

Player B

• 155 AB in his first major league season, with .197/.296/.533 and 46 OPS+
• Career .221/.340/.644 in many minor league seasons, because he’s now 38 years old. 

Sanchez may not be our answer at catcher (and we don’t know what’s still to happen in the transaction world), but folks, let’s not get too hung up about losing Player A (Rortvedt), just like we weren’t too hung up about losing Player B (Drew Butera). 

[mikelink45]

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

You're basically saying that it doesn't matter what the player's offense is, the only metric that matters for assessing how good a catcher is, is how good they are on defense. And I'm sorry, if that kind of assessment was ok Andrelton Simmons might still be our SS.

You're also saying the Yankees completely changed their thinking on catching last season...but did they? Sanchez played 117 games last season; he appears as a catcher in 110 of them. He only DH'd 5 times. he started 100 games at catcher and had 92 complete games at the position. Look at his starts by month:

• March/April: 18
• May: 18
• June: 20
• July: 18
• Aug: 13
• Sept: 18

Doesn't really look like they changed all that much, does it?

And the Yankees care about money too; if they didn't they would have signed Correa or Story to play SS for them rather than trade for IK-F. They just operate on a little different scale than we do.

Bottom line: if Rortvedt doesn't substantially improve his hitting, he will not be a better player than Sanchez next season, at catcher or any other position on the field. the Yankees may be willing to sacrifice offense at catcher and feel like they have enough elsewhere to navigate it, and that it's more important to their formula to have better defense consistently at catcher, and that's all fine. Rortvedt might be a better FIT for them next season and going forward...but right now I'd bet the under on him being a better overall player than Sanchez for next season. And I say this as someone who has been a big Rortvedt supporter. But he was horrendously bad at the plate last season and there's evidence in his minor league history to suggest he's never going to be a good hitter in MLB.

If Sanchez hits and plays defense like he has the past few years I would definitely take  Rortvedt.  Rortvedt was supposed to be our back up, not starter, but that is valuable.  Sanchez should not get closer to the catcher position than in the batters box.  At the end of the season when the playoffs were possible the Yankees shifter to Higasioka - he was the choice of Gerrit Cole.  

[jmlease1]

38 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

If Sanchez hits and plays defense like he has the past few years I would definitely take  Rortvedt.  Rortvedt was supposed to be our back up, not starter, but that is valuable.  Sanchez should not get closer to the catcher position than in the batters box.  At the end of the season when the playoffs were possible the Yankees shifter to Higasioka - he was the choice of Gerrit Cole.  

Pitchers will take the no-hit defensive catcher because the better receiver impacts them directly, whereas their lack of offense doesn't. but when a guy is a 41 OPS+, maybe you shouldn't let the pitcher decide who their personal caddy is. Gerrit Cole gets paid a ridiculous amount of money maybe he can sack up and pitch to whomever the team decides.

[RpR]

The Twins over the decades have picked up some players that put in pretty much their best year/s in a short time with the Twins, but then that depends on the coaching staff to a great degree.

A good one makes them glad to be here.

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

Pitchers will take the no-hit defensive catcher because the better receiver impacts them directly, whereas their lack of offense doesn't. but when a guy is a 41 OPS+, maybe you shouldn't let the pitcher decide who their personal caddy is. Gerrit Cole gets paid a ridiculous amount of money maybe he can sack up and pitch to whomever the team decides.

If you want to flush a prospect after <100 major league PA at age 23, I don't know what to say.  41 OPS+ isn't what Rortvedt "is".

Elsewhere, a comp was made to Drew Butera. Rortvedt lost his age-22 season to Covid, but at age 21 he OPSed .687 at AA, while at the same age Butera managed .603 at low-A.  At 23, Rortvedt did .750 at AAA, and Butera did .765 at high-A.  Being 2 league levels higher at the same age, that is huge when comparing. 

Rortvedt's has been developing as a hitter, just fine.  He won't win any batting titles, because catchers not named Mauer generally don't.  But he's going to hit.  Especially now that he's been traded, because, Twins, y'know.  And people are going to be, all, "well, that came out of nowhere."

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

If you want to flush a prospect after <100 major league PA at age 23, I don't know what to say.  41 OPS+ isn't what Rortvedt "is".

Elsewhere, a comp was made to Drew Butera. Rortvedt lost his age-22 season to Covid, but at age 21 he OPSed .687 at AA, while at the same age Butera managed .603 at low-A.  At 23, Rortvedt did .750 at AAA, and Butera did .765 at high-A.  Being 2 league levels higher at the same age, that is huge when comparing. 

Rortvedt's has been developing as a hitter, just fine.  He won't win any batting titles, because catchers not named Mauer generally don't.  But he's going to hit.  Especially now that he's been traded, because, Twins, y'know.  And people are going to be, all, "well, that came out of nowhere."

you're missing my point, though, which has been that right now and likely for this season Gary Sanchez is the better player. Rortvedt could end up being better, and might be a better fit (the fact that he hits lefty helps as a platoon partner) for a team, but people are acting like Ben Rortvedt is a better player than Gary Sanchez, only looking at Sanchez's flaws and ignoring the rather sizable one that Rortvedt may have at the plate. We've had people ripping this deal claiming that all three of the players the Yankees got were better than anything the twins got and getting way out on their skis about ben rortvedt.

 

[aTwinsFanInMaryland]

All Yankees players seem to rake at Target Field. No reason Gary cannot do it while playing for the Twins instead of against them ?. 

[beterday]

Rortvedt is Drew Butera and he will play 30 more years as a back up catcher and leave with a career .099 batting average.  I don't know what Sanchez will be, but it will be fun to see and a better chance that Rortvedt provides.  We can't bet in MN yet (legally), but I would bet Urshela has a better year than Simmons if he is allowed to play short and better than Kiner-Felafa, as well.  My opinion is that this will prove out as a good trade, but likely only if they get Story, as well.  It does us (the Twins) no good to rid themselves of Donaldson's money if they don't spend it on ball players, and I'm getting a little concerned this isn't going to happen.

[tony&rodney]

Rortvedt and Sanchez do not play the same position. Rortvedt is a catcher and yes, he needs to improve his hitting. If you look around baseball a number of teams have used catchers who have lower OPS numbers and so forth  but are great with the glove. My opinion, and the Yankees agree, is that Rortvedt has a future as a catcher.

Sanchez is a DH who was used behind the plate because he mashed, until it finally became untenable. The Yankees were pretty sure they could unload him because of the DH being instituted across baseball. The surprise was that he wound up on the Twins team. He has enormous power, very similar to Miguel Sano. People have asked what this means for Kirilloff and Sano. Sano likes to be in the field but his defense is poor and he was slated for DH duty for the most part. Kirilloff was slated for first base and is almost adequate in the outfield, but it looks like with Sanchez at DH, the Twins will use Sano at 1B and AK in LF. The trade weakened the team at four positions.

Thus, one should not compare Rotvedt and Sanchez as catchers. FWIW, I would definitely take Sanchez at DH over Rortvedt.

[mikelink45]

"

"That's 24-year-old catcher Ben Rortvedt. He was rated the best defensive catcher in the Twins' system last season, he's an exceptional framer and some scouts believe he may eventually have 20-HR power. And yes, as you could probably see from outer space, he is exceedingly yoked."  

His powerful, lefty swing could fit in perfectly at Yankee Stadium as he develops, or, like his first MLB homer, he can always crank one 417 feet the other way."  mlb.com

[Richmond Dude]

I don't know how this turns out, but here are a few thoughts:

Sanchez doesn't DH for us because, while Kiner-Falefa had catching experience, I don't think we have another emergency catcher on the roster (could be wrong, someone will surely let me know if I am, lol).

It's interesting to see folks who were mad when we traded for Kiner-Falefa also be mad when we traded him away.  What changed in 24 hours?  He didn't even report to Ft. Myers.

Yankees fans are frustrated that Urshela was traded and fel this was a bad trade for them.  Most of the professional baseball commentators seem to agree, grading the Twins higher on the trade than the Yankees (although some probably have factored in money and assumed a major signing).

Rortvedt is a risk for the Yankees.  I have watched baseball a long time (like many of you).  I have a seen a *lot* of players who were great at AAA and projected to be solid major leaguers not be able to make the jump or have a single good season.  The difference between the two levels is huge.  I wish him well, but about half of these guys who make it don't actually do well.  We'll see how it plays out.

I'll wait for some actual games to put much effort into judging this one.

[Richmond Dude]

11 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

Ah, to be a baseball fan after a trade. We're always pretty sure that the guys we gave away are going to continue regressing, while the guys we got are just on the cusp of a rebound season.

 

Or the opposite.  Baseball fans run to both extremes.

[bighat]

17 hours ago, MN_ExPat said:

So what?  Why the desire to find fault with a player in such a manner and then turn on other fans who choose to find hope in the situation?  Was I crazy about picking up Sanchez? Umm... no, definitely not a choice I would have made.  Still, me bashing others solves nothing (especially in print where human inflections and context in speech and communication are missing).  

Comments like the above and others of its ilk fall into the realm of "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."  If you don't agree with it... tell us why you don't, not that another person is wrong or dumb for being hopeful.  Even if it's emotionally driven, I think most people can understand that.

Agree.

The hand-wringing is out of control IMO. It's strange to me how people here look at Trevor Larnach's numbers and think "I hope this guy is our left fielder this year", but when they see Sanchez' numbers they think he should be demoted to AA and never see the pro field again.

How about we just relax and see how everyone does? Larnach might improve with some extra batting practice, fielding practice, and some film study - why can't Sanchez do the same? He's only 28 years old, and he's been an All-Star TWICE already. And A-Rod once referred to him as a "hybrid of Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz".

I think this feeling so many people have right now is simply due to the fact that we made a trade with the Yankees. We picture humble, hard-working, naive Minnesotans going into the big city, only to have their money stolen on a crooked game of 3-card monty. Relax everyone. Let the next couple weeks play out and see where the rest of the chips fall.

[Whitey333]

I hope it works out well for Sanchez here but I am skeptical.  I am not at all surprised dumping Donaldson salary.  Statistically he gave pretty much what was expected of him.  Injuries yes.  But didn't Buxton stay off the field more than on it the past 7 seasons?  On paper it looks like we got fleeced.  I believe Sanchez has hit .178 over the past two seasons.  He is also statistically rated the worst defensive catcher in the American League.  We seem to have depleted an area of strength in catching to an area of concern.  We gave the Yankees their starting third baseman and shortstop.  For what?  An obvious salary dump.  If more moves are not forthcoming to strengthen the Twins roster,. This FO has got to go.  Unless of course it's a Pohlad mandate.  Then they will be here forever.  Bottom line for us Twins fans is the team just sells us prospects and hopes and now change of scenery.  Good grief!

[Trov]

Baseball is a very mental game, and maybe that was affecting Sanchez.  Also, maybe being full time catcher so long started to wear on him too.  Maybe getting some DH at bats will help him.  However, his huge K rate is an issue.  I did look up the home road split of Sanchez and was expecting a bigger split being Yankee Stadium is very hitter friendly overall.  

The way I see it, no way will he be worse than we expect, so if he can offer much of anything that is just a bonus.