Where does Baldelli rank among MLB managers?

[LastOnePicked]

23 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The 2020 Twins were 16-8 in September.

My memory failed me. Not the first time. Though they did go 4-8 to end August, with a six-game losing streak that knocked them out of first. If not for a Chicago collapse, they likely would have had to settle for second or third place.

I think my point about the playoffs stands, though. This team just did not seem ready for next-level competition under Baldelli. Again, so far. Perhaps it's just my pessimism-colored glasses.

[jimbo92107]

On 2/21/2022 at 1:38 PM, Ryan_K said:

There have been definite in game mistakes, but I don't know if that's on him, the FO, or the quality control coach. How much discretion is he allowed to make vs being a facilitator of conversation and strategy coming from FO.

I'm critical of relying on data above common sense as the trends don't always apply to the situation at hand; however, are we critiquing his interpretation of the data or what is provided as data because if incomplete it's tough for him to succeed.

Known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. Not even a fully functional quantum computer can cover all that ground, much less concatenate and compile useful conclusions from such a mess. This is why py-rate cap'ns drink rum and have a parrot on one shoulder, why mlb managers go gray before they're 40, and why both mutter like Popeye. This is why the answer to Why? is Why Not?, and why the ultimate answer is 42. Why not?

If we compute on that a while, the result cannot be construed to indict Baldelli for common dogpoopery. How can he know if a young pitcher is going to blow up his elbow just before his first mlb season? How can he know there's going to be a planet-screwing pandemic that disrupts everything? The unknown unknowns outnumber the grains of sand on a beach, and each could represent a completely different branch of an alternate reality.

It's worse than trying to hit a knuckleball. 

[Original_JB]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:01 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Everything quoted here is a complaint about 21st century Major League Baseball, not Rocco Baldelli specifically (other than the Sano complaint but most/all managers would leave him in given the short benches forced upon every team due to bullpen size).

But if as a team you aren't willing to spend outlandishly, and you still want to win/be competitive,  you need to make up the difference by doing ALL the little things, you know, Moneyball for Managers.

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:35 AM, jimbo92107 said:

Another thing we can't blame on Baldy is player development.

If a player is the same guy as a 29 year old 5-year vet as he was when he was a 24 year old rookie, then that lack of player development is absolutely on the guy who oversees the coaches who work daily with that player.  That individual is the manager.  As yet, I have not seen consistent enough development from MLB players to say Baldelli is good at that part of the job.

[Cap'n Piranha]

I would put Rocco in the high (low?) teens--that is the 16-19 range.  I can't quantify it, but I feel like I've seen an erosion in fundamental play in the past couple of years.  I also just get the sense that Rocco is more a manager than a leader--that works when you have scads of talent that just needs to be pointed in the right direction and left alone.  It doesn't work so great when the team needs inspiration, which given the listless nature of Baldelli's 5 playoff losses, I incline to believe.  Again, no data to back this up, just a feeling.

[Blyleven2011]

I stated earlier that Rocco doesn't tap into the talent he has and makes them better  ,,, some posts have also added their  comments on Rocco's abilities but elaborated more than i wanted to ... 

Rocco won the manager of the year in 2019 ,,,, Did he deserve it over boone or cash ...

No . , what do you base it on , he never managed prior to 2019  , THE PLAYERS HAD CAREER YEARS , he was the manager but how many times did he have to really have to make critical in-game common sense decisions  , not much until it all came out in playoffs  ...

 

Boone or cash deserved it more  , Boone's yankees had so many injuries and very capable back up players  to win what 108 games  ,,, outstanding and I hate the yankees....

Cash led a Tampa team to the playoffs with 90 plus wins , low payroll  , crappy stadium to play in and he is capable if implementing strategy  and new ideas outside the box ...

I'm happy that the twins won the honor of manager of the year but if I would have been given a vote I would have given the honor to cash of boone ,,,, they earned it by managing   ...

Rocco did not manage his first year , the PLAYERS HAD CAREER YEARS ... 

even his post game reports  in 2019 were written by someone else ,, a intern would ask  the media what questions they were going to ask , and someone write the answers for Rocco,,, didn't anyone notice this but me  , I did some poking around and found out when I noticed something was off on his responses ..

Rocco was a robot his first season and second and third year was given more of a free hand in post game discussion ..

[cHawk]

2 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I stated earlier that Rocco doesn't tap into the talent he has and makes them better  ,,, some posts have also added their  comments on Rocco's abilities but elaborated more than i wanted to ... 

Rocco won the manager of the year in 2019 ,,,, Did he deserve it over boone or cash ...

No . , what do you base it on , he never managed prior to 2019  , THE PLAYERS HAD CAREER YEARS , he was the manager but how many times did he have to really have to make critical in-game common sense decisions  , not much until it all came out in playoffs  ...

 

Boone or cash deserved it more  , Boone's yankees had so many injuries and very capable back up players  to win what 108 games  ,,, outstanding and I hate the yankees....

Cash led a Tampa team to the playoffs with 90 plus wins , low payroll  , crappy stadium to play in and he is capable if implementing strategy  and new ideas outside the box ...

I'm happy that the twins won the honor of manager of the year but if I would have been given a vote I would have given the honor to cash of boone ,,,, they earned it by managing   ...

Rocco did not manage his first year , the PLAYERS HAD CAREER YEARS ... 

even his post game reports  in 2019 were written by someone else ,, a intern would ask  the media what questions they were going to ask , and someone write the answers for Rocco,,, didn't anyone notice this but me  , I did some poking around and found out when I noticed something was off on his responses ..

Rocco was a robot his first season and second and third year was given more of a free hand in post game discussion ..

The players performed well. So ****ing what? That doesn’t mean he gets all of the blame and zero of the credit. If players performing well can mask a manager’s flaws, couldn’t literally constant injuries and a hodgepodge pitching staff make life for the manager more difficult?

[Blyleven2011]

19 hours ago, cHawk said:

The players performed well. So ****ing what? That doesn’t mean he gets all of the blame and zero of the credit. If players performing well can mask a manager’s flaws, couldn’t literally constant injuries and a hodgepodge pitching staff make life for the manager more difficult?

2019 the players did mask his flaws and they came out in the playoffs  and have been very visible since ,,,  

I'm sorry  hawk but he isn't a top manager  ,,, look what hinch did with Detroit  ,, 

Look what the old has been larussa did with white Sox ,,  you might have said  when larussa was hired that that would be the death of Chicago  ..

Hawk , play the game within the game and you be the manager  , you make the pitching changes and in game decisions,, even last year Rocco could have won a few more games  if he made better choices with what he had on the roster  ,,,

Rocco took leave to have a baby delivered and his replacement  won 4 in arow and went 4-1  ...

With this owner and management  it will be hard to win a championship  ,,, So the blame does also go elsewhere too ...

[Brock Beauchamp]

8 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

2019 the players did mask his flaws and they came out in the playoffs  and have been very visible since ,,,  

I'm sorry  hawk but he isn't a top manager  ,,, look what hinch did with Detroit  ,, 

Look what the old has been larussa did with white Sox ,,  you might have said  when larussa was hired that that would be the death of Chicago  ..

Hawk , play the game within the game and you be the manager  , you make the pitching changes and in game decisions,, even last year Rocco could have won a few more games  if he made better choices with what he had on the roster  ,,,

Rocco took leave to have a baby delivered and his replacement  won 4 in arow and went 4-1  ...

With this owner and management  it will be hard to win a championship  ,,, So the blame does also go elsewhere too ...

All of this is anecdotal and you're omitting anything that isn't convenient to your larger point, such as the fact the 2020 White Sox had a slightly higher winning percentage than the 2021 White Sox, despite the front office improving the on-field talent quite a bit between those seasons.

And LaRussa's 2021 White Sox also fell flat on their faces in the postseason. You use that as ammunition against Baldelli's Twins while ignoring it about LaRussa's White Sox.

What's more likely than anything you listed above is that managers just don't move the needle much unless they're really terrible at managing a clubhouse and actively sabotage the team.

[cHawk]

35 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

2019 the players did mask his flaws and they came out in the playoffs  and have been very visible since ,,,  

I'm sorry  hawk but he isn't a top manager  ,,, look what hinch did with Detroit  ,, 

Look what the old has been larussa did with white Sox ,,  you might have said  when larussa was hired that that would be the death of Chicago  ..

Hawk , play the game within the game and you be the manager  , you make the pitching changes and in game decisions,, even last year Rocco could have won a few more games  if he made better choices with what he had on the roster  ,,,

Rocco took leave to have a baby delivered and his replacement  won 4 in arow and went 4-1  ...

With this owner and management  it will be hard to win a championship  ,,, So the blame does also go elsewhere too ...

I'm sorry  hawk but he isn't a top manager  ,,, look what hinch did with Detroit  ,, 

Not once have I said he’s a Top 5 manager. Of course Hinch is better. I do however think he’s an upper tier manager.

Look what the old has been larussa did with white Sox

I really have a hard time grasping this argument right here. It seems like you’re trying to say that LaRussa is a good manager and leader. Do you remember the incident involving Yermin Mercedes that was all over the news? How can you look at that and think LaRussa is the right man for that team? On the other hand, LaRussa’s managing style is incredibly dated. Baldelli had a talented team? Well LaRussa had a talented team as well.

even last year Rocco could have won a few more games  if he made better choices with what he had on the roster  ,,,

Would that really make you think better of his performance? If they went 78-84 instead of 73-89? It’s hard for a manager to ever look good with a losing record.

Rocco took leave to have a baby delivered and his replacement  won 4 in arow and went 4-1  ...

Ah yes. Because Bill Evers’ whopping five games definitely has more validity than Baldelli’s 300+…