MLB Talks ... latest news

[bean5302]

9 hours ago, Sconnie said:

Considering 29 teams are unwilling to open their books, I’d say your radical idea is doa

This is DoA. The MLBPA has publicly agreed they're getting a 50/50 split already and they're happy with the owners' numbers. The revenue split is not an issue of contention right now.

[bean5302]

Honestly, the "bonus pool" is in addition to pre-arbitration, minimum, salary increases. The MLBPA proposal could potentially have a 2nd year player who had a nice rookie campaign increase from $775k to $4.25MM before arbitration even began, essentially septupling current compensation is a pretty big ask. Unless I'm misunderstanding.

The owner's response would increase that same player from $600k to potentially $1MM or so.

In any case, it feels like a bit of posturing right now.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

8 hours ago, bean5302 said:

This is DoA. The MLBPA has publicly agreed they're getting a 50/50 split already and they're happy with the owners' numbers. The revenue split is not an issue of contention right now.

If the revenue split is a non-issue, why are they arguing over pre-arb bonus pool?

because the players want a larger proportion of the revenue

the septupling of income is the PA trying to expand the pie. Instead of taking money away from free agent eligible players. This indicates that the players don’t just accept the owners numbers, they just aren’t getting anywhere arguing about it.

[bean5302]

4 hours ago, Sconnie said:

If the revenue split is a non-issue, why are they arguing over pre-arb bonus pool?

because the players want a larger proportion of the revenue

the septupling of income is the PA trying to expand the pie. Instead of taking money away from free agent eligible players. This indicates that the players don’t just accept the owners numbers, they just aren’t getting anywhere arguing about it.

Because it appears to me the MLBPA isn't able to recognize cause and effect. This seems to be a reoccuring problem with a lot of people in our society in general. Like government programs, be it health benefits for veterans or food shelves. Everybody likes the program, but nobody wants to pay for it... and somebody has to pay for it. MLBPA doesn't recognize that Max Scherzer or Trea Turner needs to pay for it.

Then again, your apparent strawman here is techncially correct here as the MLBPA would certainly fight for a mutually destructive share of the revenue.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

49 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Because it appears to me the MLBPA isn't able to recognize cause and effect. This seems to be a reoccuring problem with a lot of people in our society in general. Like government programs, be it health benefits for veterans or food shelves. Everybody likes the program, but nobody wants to pay for it... and somebody has to pay for it. MLBPA doesn't recognize that Max Scherzer or Trea Turner needs to pay for it.

Then again, your apparent strawman here is techncially correct here as the MLBPA would certainly fight for a mutually destructive share of the revenue.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Should baseball players pay higher taxes? That’s not relevant to a CBA negotiation.

Re: the second paragraph: the point here is establishing a shared perception of revenue. If one strategy in the negotiation is opaqueness then the counter is asking for more than you think you can get in order to achieve counter proposal higher than assumed target. The idea is with enough counter proposals meeting in the middle is mutually agreeable, or at least not bad.

the work stoppage is mutually destructive. How the two sides get out of it is through negotiation.

Leverage in negotiation is key and that is based on the Best Alternative to Negotiated Agreement. If the two sides come to a stalemate what is the best outcome for each?

For the owners: scabs, but that decreases the value of their teams and associated IP. Over a long enough period TV, Streaming, and Ticket revenue will decline along with advertising revenue.

For players it’s joining other leagues. We’ve already seen several players take that as their primary (their value was already short term and couldn’t afford to wait it out). Flooding additional markets with new talent dilutes their market. Not ideal, clearly.

lost games for both parties seems like the least painful option for both over the long term, but the market will sour quickly and will become the most painful in a learning curve type of trajectory 

so by using common negotiation strategy logic we can make some assumptions based on what we know to try to guess at what the objective was for each of the proposals and counters. It is a straw man, but from what I believe to be a reasonably thought out conclusion. YMMV

if we agree on assumed objectives, then we can debate outcomes and effectiveness of negotiations and “measure” progress. Could be an interesting exercise

[nicksaviking]

21 hours ago, wsnydes said:

I thought the pool was for pre-arb players.

 

It is.

But 10M is less than Guerrero Jr and Bichette Jr should be getting. Each.

[Cap'n Piranha]

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

It is.

But 10M is less than Guerrero Jr and Bichette Jr should be getting. Each.

Guerrero and Bichette could each get $15M+ the first day the lockout ended--I'm sure Toronto would be thrilled to sign them to matching 10 yr, $150M+ deals (which is less than Franco got, btw).  They choose not to because they're hoping for a Seager/Lindor/Correa deal, which is their right.  But it cuts to the heart of what Bean was saying earlier; for pre-FA players to be paid "what they're worth", there has to be a mechanism to allow underperforming veterans on FA deals to be paid "what they're worth".  There is only so much money to go around, and until the MLBPA prioritizes the 60+% of their members who have never signed a multi-year deal (many of whom never will), young players will be (more often than not) underpaid, and old players will be (more often than not) overpaid.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

2 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Guerrero and Bichette could each get $15M+ the first day the lockout ended--I'm sure Toronto would be thrilled to sign them to matching 10 yr, $150M+ deals (which is less than Franco got, btw).  They choose not to because they're hoping for a Seager/Lindor/Correa deal, which is their right.  But it cuts to the heart of what Bean was saying earlier; for pre-FA players to be paid "what they're worth", there has to be a mechanism to allow underperforming veterans on FA deals to be paid "what they're worth".  There is only so much money to go around, and until the MLBPA prioritizes the 60+% of their members who have never signed a multi-year deal (many of whom never will), young players will be (more often than not) underpaid, and old players will be (more often than not) overpaid.

You are correct, money is finite (or inflation would run even more rampant) and there is only so much to go around.

we don’t know how much, and that is very important to the negotiation for both sides.

until there is mutual agreement on how much there really is, you get these preposterous starting points. Ultimately it is what it is, and overpaid or underpaid is agreed upon in the CBA.

[Vanimal46]

 

[wsnydes]

22 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

 

How...not shocking!

Thanks for the link, Van!

[wsnydes]

Talks are scheduled to resume Tuesday.

 

 

 

[Vanimal46]

Per usual. I’d look to get refunds on your tickets to Florida and Arizona ASAP. 

[Squirrel]

18 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Per usual. I’d look to get refunds on your tickets to Florida and Arizona ASAP. 

Why? The minor leaguers ... those not on the 40-man will still be there. That's a big part of why I go to ST ... to walk down to those fields and spend time watching quite a bit. But yeah ... the other ... 

[TheLeviathan]

5 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Why? The minor leaguers ... those not on the 40-man will still be there. That's a big part of why I go to ST ... to walk down to those fields and spend time watching quite a bit. But yeah ... the other ... 

Because this league doesn't deserve your money.  Or anyone's.  At this point I might pirate games and not watch them out of spite.

[Squirrel]

41 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Because this league doesn't deserve your money.  Or anyone's.  At this point I might pirate games and not watch them out of spite.

Watching the minor leaguers drill and play doesn't cost anything. Parking is charged only when there are games happening at the stadium. I've often headed over to the complex when the Twins ST game is elsewhere. No cost to do that. But, the question is, when do the minors officially begin their ST. Haven't checked that yet

[Battle ur tail off]

Baseball already on life support and we have this going on. This could be one of the final nails in the coffin. Soon it may be close to hockey with it being a niche sport not highly supported throughout the country. Both sides need to do what's best for the game, whatever that may be and get the season started on time. 

[Unwinder]

I think this only matters to people who care enough about the sport that they're probably going to keep reluctantly following it anyway. I've talked to several friends who are only casually interested in baseball, and they don't even know it's happening. It also does not seem to have affected their interest in joining me for a ballgame if and when there are ballgames to attend this summer.

[wsnydes]

[Brock Beauchamp]

Sigh.

 

[Brandon]

I have decided if the players and owners cancel my games, then I will cancel my ticket buying and going to games for the season.  We will see if that gets extended.  As a fan I do not care if they are having trouble agreeing how to split up the revenue pie.  But I do take issue with them not caring about me the paying customer.  I will spend them at a place that does care. This needs to be said by millions of fans and we need to hold them accountable for their greed and lack if fan appreciation. 

Also I hope every city with a publicly funded stadium sue MLB for non performance. See how much revenue is available for both owners and players after cities take a billion or so after settlements.

[lecroy24fan]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Sigh.

 

They helped with negotiations to end the lockout in the NHL in 2013. Same guy is still the head guy so I'm looking at this as a positive.

[wsnydes]

3 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Sigh.

 

Apparently the MLBPA has to agree to it as well.  Doesn't sound like they will agree.

[wsnydes]

1 hour ago, lecroy24fan said:

They helped with negotiations to end the lockout in the NHL in 2013. Same guy is still the head guy so I'm looking at this as a positive.

And MLB went through the process in the '94 strike and the players side came out pretty strongly that it was a waste of time.

 

 

[lecroy24fan]

Now that it has come out that MLB will not be sending a counter proposal I'm not looking forward to missing games. 

[dex8425]

On 2/2/2022 at 1:16 PM, Unwinder said:

I think this only matters to people who care enough about the sport that they're probably going to keep reluctantly following it anyway. I've talked to several friends who are only casually interested in baseball, and they don't even know it's happening. It also does not seem to have affected their interest in joining me for a ballgame if and when there are ballgames to attend this summer.

Same. Most of my sports fan friends have asked me if I'm going to spring training again. They had no idea the lockout is happening. I think most casual baseball fans, who make up most of the seats at Target Field, won't really notice or care unless and until we're through April and no games have been played, since few casual fans go to games in April at Target Field anyway. 

[Dman]

I fully expected there would be no spring training.  I don't think either side is that concerned about the season starting on time but it feels like the pressure ratchets up for the players as the regular season games start to get missed.  I guess I don't know enough about what the issues are to villainize either side.  I think I would be more on the players side it they were more interested in a spending floor instead of increasing the cap.

[MMMordabito]

Rob Manfred, Tony Clark, Jim Pohlad, Hal and Hank Steinbrenner and the rest of the owners =

[AceWrigley]

Billionaires wrestling with Millionaires and the fans pretty much pay the tab.

[Vanimal46]

And Federal Mediation was denied. 

 

[wsnydes]

21 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

And Federal Mediation was denied. 

 

That didn't take long.