Is David Ortiz a Hall of Famer?

[cHawk]

There has been a lot of talk about the HOF and the upcoming inductions in July of 2022 as of late. There are many players we could debate about getting in, but today I’d like to discuss the former Twin.

The question is simple: Should David Ortiz be inducted into the HOF?

The reason this isn’t a hard yes is because he has failed a drug test, and there’s other evidence that he cheated. So was most of Ortiz’ success built upon PEDs, or would he have been a HOF regardless?

That’s the question of the day. As always, vote above and discuss below.

Note: I might do one of these on Barry Bonds at some point in the near future.

[RpR]

Maybe the way Tony O. got in after a long, long, long wait.

[Vanimal46]

Shunning most players from the PED era is a slap in the face for people my age. I wouldn’t be such a diehard baseball fan I am today without the 1998 home run race between McGwire and Sosa. If the HOF closes the door on Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, and many others, might as well shut it all down. They’re rejecting the best players of my childhood. 

[Sean.h]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

Shunning most players from the PED era is a slap in the face for people my age. I wouldn’t be such a diehard baseball fan I am today without the 1998 home run race between McGwire and Sosa. If the HOF closes the door on Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, and many others, might as well shut it all down. They’re rejecting the best players of my childhood. 

Should the hall should accept good but not great players? questionable. Should the hall accept cheaters? Definitely not.

[Vanimal46]

15 minutes ago, Sean.h said:

Should the hall should accept good but not great players? questionable. Should the hall accept cheaters? Definitely not.

If you think there has been an era in baseball where “cheaters” didn’t exist, I have ocean front property in Kansas to sell to you. 

[Sean.h]

10 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

If you think there has been an era in baseball where “cheaters” didn’t exist, I have ocean front property in Kansas to sell to you. 

"Proven" cheaters. I proctored many exams in college. If someone got caught cheating, they got an F on the exam at the least. Worse consequences, such as expulsion, were always on the table.

[cHawk]

14 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

If you think there has been an era in baseball where “cheaters” didn’t exist, I have ocean front property in Kansas to sell to you. 

What’s funny is that Kansas is a landlocked state so that isn’t even possible.

[Vanimal46]

14 minutes ago, Sean.h said:

"Proven" cheaters. I proctored many exams in college. If someone got caught cheating, they got an F on the exam at the least. Worse consequences, such as expulsion, were always on the table.

https://padresteve.com/2013/01/11/cheaters-and-the-baseball-hall-of-fame-the-hypocrisy-and-arrogance-of-the-baseball-writers-of-the-bbwaa/amp/

“I’ve been in pro baseball since 1914 and I’ve cheated, or watched someone on my team cheat, in practically every game. You’ve got to cheat.” - Roger Hornsby

“I’d always have it (grease) in at least two places, in case the umpires would ask me to wipe one off. I never wanted to be caught out there with anything though, it wouldn’t be professional.” - Gaylord Perry

“I didn’t begin cheating until late in my career, when I needed something to help me survive. I didn’t cheat when I won the twenty-five games in 1961. I don’t want anybody to get any ideas and take my Cy Young Awardaway. And I didn’t cheat in 1963 when I won twenty-four games. Well, maybe a little.” - Whitey Ford 

Boy you must not like any Hall of Famers. Cheaters. All of them! 

[tony&rodney]

If it happens, it happens and then Barry Bonds goes in unanimous. Right? 

[TopGunn#22]

We're talking about an entire level of cheating never attainted before.  We're talking about Brady Anderson hitting 50 !  FIFTY !! HR's for the Orioles one year.  He didn't hit 50 HR's the rest of his career.  Nope.

[Squirrel]

I voted no. He was a DH only for most of his major league career. It's one thing (like Frank Thomas) to have had a position for about half his career then be a DH only, Ortiz was a DH first and only for most of his career. No. He's not a baseball player but a baseball hitter.

[TwinsDr2021]

13 hours ago, cHawk said:

What’s funny is that Kansas is a landlocked state so that isn’t even possible.

Not yet, but possibly soon ?

[TwinsDr2021]

13 hours ago, Sean.h said:

"Proven" cheaters. I proctored many exams in college. If someone got caught cheating, they got an F on the exam at the least. Worse consequences, such as expulsion, were always on the table.

So we going to lock the doors and close to the place down, because the place is full of cheaters.

[mikelink45]

The HOF is succeeding by creating controversies like this.  We all engage in these debates with passion, outrage, curiosity and that is good for the hall.  Controversy creates publicity.  And all these things get us engaged in looking at older players and statistics and stories.  In the long run, once a player is in, unless he is Aaron, Clemente, Mays, Ruth, Gehrig we stop talking and forget who they are.  The numbers are below - from the HOF website.  How many can you name?  How many of the 28 that got in during the Bonds/Clemens controversy can you name?

 

"The Hall of Fame is comprised of 339 elected members. Included are 267 former major league players, as well as 40 executives/pioneers, 22 managers and 10 umpires. The Baseball Writers’ Association of America has elected 134 candidates to the Hall while the Committees on managers, umpires, executives and long-retired players (in all of its forms) has chosen 179 deserving candidates. The defunct “Committee on Negro Baseball Leagues” selected nine men between 1971-77 and the Special Committee on Negro Leagues in 2006, elected 17 Negro Leaguers. There are currently 74 living members. By position, there are: 84 pitchers, 19 catchers, 25 first basemen, 20 second basemen, 17 third basemen, 26 shortstops, 23 left fielders, 24 center fielders, 27 right fielders, 2 designated hitters, 22 managers, 10 umpires and 40 executives/pioneers. In 2020, players who appeared in seven specific Negro Leagues between 1920 and 1948 were designated with major league status."

[dex8425]

58 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I voted no. He was a DH only for most of his major league career. It's one thing (like Frank Thomas) to have had a position for about half his career then be a DH only, Ortiz was a DH first and only for most of his career. No. He's not a baseball player but a baseball hitter.

Well you can't make that argument because Edgar Martinez is (rightly) in the HOF. You could make the argument that Edgar is a more deserving DH candidate than Ortiz though. 

[dex8425]

For me, his case isn't crystal clear even if you remove the PED tag. Only 55 WAR, and primarily DH. Only other primary DH in the HOF is Edgar, who has 68 WAR and also started his career late.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't ding Ortiz for being a DH nearly as much as some others do. At the end of the day, I just ask "was this player one of the best in baseball for most of their career?" And the answer is a resounding yes with Ortiz.

And then there are the postseason heroics to consider, which absolutely push him well over the line into HoF territory. His WAR is lacking but that's just a metric like any other and as a DH it's almost impossible to reach the 70 win threshold many consider the HoF standard (same with catcher but that's a different conversation). Even Edgar fell short of 70 rWAR.

If Ortiz isn't a Hall of Fame DH, it's pretty hard to argue there should be *any* Hall of Fame DHs. And if we're excluding entire classes of players from the Hall, that's not great and it's yet another way the Hall is not representative of baseball history.

[Cap'n Piranha]

2 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I voted no. He was a DH only for most of his major league career. It's one thing (like Frank Thomas) to have had a position for about half his career then be a DH only, Ortiz was a DH first and only for most of his career. No. He's not a baseball player but a baseball hitter.

I agree with this, which is why any AL pitcher after 1973 should be barred from the hall.  They're just baseball pitchers, not baseball players.

[ashbury]

Anyone whose Puckett argument for the HoF includes how beloved he was in the Twin Cities, needs to stop and recognize that Ortiz holds a place in Bostonians' hearts not far from Ted and Yaz, and not just for on-field performance.  In the aftermath of the Marathon bombing, Papi got up and issued a profanity-laced call for resilience and resolve that struck the town just right.  Sometimes the moment makes the decisions for us.  He's an icon, it's a hall of FAME, and even if his stats were a bit lesser, I wouldn't have a problem voting him in, PEDs be damned.

[bean5302]

As of today, the brackets for hall of fame voting for all players who have completed eligibility and either been voted in or are not in the hall looks about like this:

• 80+ bWAR = 100%, (100% of all players 80+ bWAR)
• 75-79 bWAR = 88% (95% of all players 75+ bWAR)
• 70-74 bWAR = 88% (94% of all players 70+ bWAR)
• 65-69 bWAR = 73% (89% of all players 65+ bWAR)
• 60-64 bWAR = 67% (85% of all players 60+ bWAR)
• 55-59 bWAR = 49% (78% of all players 55+ bWAR), David Ortiz 55.3 bWAR)
• 50-54 bWAR = 38% (71% of all players 50+ bWAR)
• 45-49 bWAR = 30% (62% of all players 45+ bWAR
• 40-44 bWAR = 15% (54% of all players 40+ bWAR)
• 35-39 bWAR = 11% (47% of all players 35+ bWAR)

Big Papi is a legendary name in baseball and is the most important and iconic baseball figure for the Red Sox. In terms of reach and value, only the Yankees are a bigger name than the Red Sox in baseball. That's going to work for him. Aside from that, Ortiz's character and ambassadorship for the sport has been considered pretty exemplary. There aren't many players who've done more for the sport or have been better players in their respective positions in baseball history. There's nothing credible tying Ortiz to PEDs and it shouldn't be a consideration. If Ortiz doesn't get in, there's no reason to even care about the BBWAA HoF voting.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't understand the point of having a Hall of Fame at all if you're contorting yourself into reasons to keep Ortiz out.

Seriously, just say you don't like Halls of Fame.  I'd probably agree.  But if such a thing exists....Ortiz should be automatic.  I don't care if he's been a DH since he was a baby or was allergic fielding.  He's a HOFer.

[21bdp21]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:33 PM, tony&rodney said:

If it happens, it happens and then Barry Bonds goes in unanimous. Right? 

The thing is Barry Bonds should already be in the HOF. The cancerous is he supposedly (never tested positive)  started using PED's after the '98 season.
In Bond's first 13 years of playing is stats look like:

• BA .289
• OBP .408
• SLG .557
• OPS .965
• AVG OPS+ 163
• WAR 99.9
• 8X AS
• 3X MVP, 5X 2-10 in MVP voting and 12th in MVP voting once
• 8x GG
• 7X SS
• 411 HR (Averaged 31.5/year)
• Led the League in HR  1X, BB 5X, OBP 4X, SLG 3X, OPS+ 4X.

If you gave that resume to a HOF voter and said hey should Jon Doe be in the HOF. The answer would be yes. 

 

[Nine of twelve]

On 12/16/2021 at 9:21 AM, Squirrel said:

I voted no. He was a DH only for most of his major league career. It's one thing (like Frank Thomas) to have had a position for about half his career then be a DH only, Ortiz was a DH first and only for most of his career. No. He's not a baseball player but a baseball hitter.

 

On 12/16/2021 at 3:37 PM, Cap'n Piranha said:

I agree with this, which is why any AL pitcher after 1973 should be barred from the hall.  They're just baseball pitchers, not baseball players.

There are four aspects to baseball: pitching, batting, fielding, and base running. You seem to think that a player should be eliminated from consideration because he was elite in only one of the four. 

[h2oface]

Hall of Shame in the Hall of Fame. A special room. Ortiz goes in the hallway between the two. Sosa gets in. Clemons gets in. Bonds gets in (just look at how big his head got!). Pete Rose gets in. Shoeless Joe Jackson gets in. They were great players, and they are part of the Fame of baseball. It is part of the story of baseball, and what the Hall is for. Tell the story of what happened and the greatest players that lived it. Some are greater than others, but no need to hide "the rest of the story", as Paul Harvey would say.

If umpires get in, all of the above are certainly HOS/HOF. Umpires in the Hall. SMH

And look at all the Designated Pitchers that don't ever bat, some only playing in about 30 games a year, that get in the HOF! Are they not baseball players even though they are just baseball throwers.?

[DJL44]

Possibly, but he's definitely NOT the best player who isn't in the Hall of Fame. It isn't the borderline cases like Ortiz that get me upset. It's passing over 50+ other players who were better baseball players to pick the borderline guy instead.