Twins Options at Shortstop in 2022

[Greglw3]

4 hours ago, miracleb said:

Gordon fits the "lite hitting shortstop" meme to a tee....except for the glove part!  LOL!

 

7 minutes ago, Platoon said:

No matter what the final outcome is remember this. If the MN Twins make a decision on who they will call on to play SS for next year, you can guarantee one thing. They will bleep it up! I was all for signing Simmons, and somehow we turned one of the best fielding SS’s in history into a blah player. Or I should say he turned himself into one, probably because of the lack of interest due to being out of the race on April 7th? 
 

Be that as it may, an infield of Polanco  and Arreaz should make baseball purists flock to MLB to watch! ?

miracles: It's definitely an arguable point but I don’t see Nick Gordon as light hitting with these stats for 2021 as a rookie with less than a full MLB chance. The .802 OPS at St. Paul and the .455 slugging percentage there may indicate that with a longer chance in MLB and regular playing time, he would be OK. I’d rather see him play SS every day for the rest of the year and release Simmons. And 12/15 in SB which could help establish a bit more balance to the Twins offense.

ar	Age	Tm	Lg	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2021	25	MIN-min	AAA	17	72	66	11	19	0	1	3	9	7	2	6	11	.288	.347	.455	.802
2021	25	MIN	AL	37	103	96	9	24	3	1	1	5	5	1	6	26	.250	.301	.333	.634

 

 

[yeahyabetcha]

I am not saying he should be resigned for 2022, but I don’t quite understand all the dislike for Simmons.  He was not signed for offense, as he has not ever really contributed much of that even in his prime.  He does make the infield defense better.  Consider that he has played with two poor (Arraez, Austudillo) fielders, two ok (Polanco, Sano) fielders and a gimpy Donaldson.

[TheLeviathan]

This team seems inclined to shell out for hitters and has done so with Donaldson.  In general, it's the safer investment of money than in a pitcher.

So, with that in mind - go hard after Seager.  He could be a cornerstone for close to a decade and you won't regret the money you paid out.  He's 27, he can hit, he can field, a deal that's 8 years/200M is probably what it'll take and this team can afford that.  Plus, he plays and helps out every pitcher who is put out there every day.

[old nurse]

The best young shortstops are not available. Tattis, Bichette and Adames are the young shortstops. The listed free agents are getting to the point they will be past their prime with a long term deal. Look how quick so many middle infielders have dropped performance after 30. They may all be looking for that big payday but I don’t think anyone will go much more than 3 or 4 years

[Nashvilletwin]

Polanco at SS in 2022

The starting lineup could be:

1. Martin LF

2. Arraez 2B

3. Polanco SS

4. Buxton CF

5. Kiriloff 1B

6. Sano DH

7. Garver C

8. Kepler RF

9. Miranda 3B

Bench: Rooker, Jeffers, Gordon, Larnach

Move Donaldson. (I could see moving Kepler too and starting Larnach and have Celestino be on the bench).

SPs: Maeda plus Jax, Ober, and the rest of the prospects. See who shines. 

Use the cash to begin building a lock down pen.

This team obviously won’t win it all in 2022, but they should be competitive and will set the table for success in 2023 and beyond. 

 

[Mike Sixel]

19 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Polanco at SS in 2022

The starting lineup could be:

1. Martin LF

2. Arraez 2B

3. Polanco SS

4. Buxton CF

5. Kiriloff 1B

6. Sano DH

7. Garver C

8. Kepler RF

9. Miranda 3B

Bench: Rooker, Jeffers, Gordon, Larnach

Move Donaldson. (I could see moving Kepler too and starting Larnach and have Celestino be on the bench).

SPs: Maeda plus Jax, Ober, and the rest of the prospects. See who shines. 

Use the cash to begin building a lock down pen.

This team obviously won’t win it all in 2022, but they should be competitive and will set the table for success in 2023 and beyond. 

 

That is a terrible infield defense. Yuck. Run prevention matters. 

[Nashvilletwin]

46 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

That is a terrible infield defense. Yuck. Run prevention matters. 

I see your point. But if Lewis is indeed targeted to be our SS in 2023, I’d prefer not to spend the cash on an expensive stop gap. No more $10.5MM for Simmons deals for me.

[Dman]

1 hour ago, Greglw3 said:

 

miracles: It's definitely an arguable point but I don’t see Nick Gordon as light hitting with these stats for 2021 as a rookie with less than a full MLB chance. The .802 OPS at St. Paul and the .455 slugging percentage there may indicate that with a longer chance in MLB and regular playing time, he would be OK. I’d rather see him play SS every day for the rest of the year and release Simmons. And 12/15 in SB which could help establish a bit more balance to the Twins offense.

ar	Age	Tm	Lg	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2021	25	MIN-min	AAA	17	72	66	11	19	0	1	3	9	7	2	6	11	.288	.347	.455	.802
2021	25	MIN	AL	37	103	96	9	24	3	1	1	5	5	1	6	26	.250	.301	.333	.634

 

 

Yeah he just hit HR's in his last couple of games so it looks like he knows he has to get to his power to have a chance to make it.  He could make things very interesting for the Twins if he continues to hit for power at AAA.  He has good bat to ball skills and pretty much always has but there are two guys at 2nd base ahead of him in Arraez and Polanco.  Still if the Twins think he can OPS 800 in MLB ball he has value. He isn't going to be a Shortstop though so to the point of this article he is not the solution going forward no matter how well his bat does or does not turn out.

[Mike Sixel]

41 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

I see your point. But if Lewis is indeed targeted to be our SS in 2023, I’d prefer not to spend the cash on an expensive stop gap. No more $10.5MM for Simmons deals for me.

I'd rather take the chance Lewis works out, and have a great SS signed, than Lewis isn't really good in 2023..... Do people expect him to be good in his first full year in the majors?

They aren't signing two expensive starting pitchers, imo. They probably don't need a third baseman, second baseman, first baseman, catcher, or outfielder...... And Donaldson comes off the books in two years. 

I guess Buxton and an elite pitcher is possible.... But I'd rather sign a SS and Buxton and one great SP.... Which they can afford. I understand others don't agree, and I'm ok with that.

[Joey P]

Simmons. He has a lot to prove and teams aren't going to be willing to give him the $$$ he wants. Plus, he can mentor our young prospects as they come up this next year. He may not hit, but that has never been his strong suit. That is not why we signed him. He has the best glove in the league. 

[bean5302]

I think opening day 2023 is very aggressive for Lewis. Unless a completely torn ACL and 2 years away from competitive baseball makes him better. Lewis is going to be very rusty going into next year. I don't understand the expectation he could be an opening day 2022 MLB or AAA player. He didn't even perform adequately at AA two years ago. If I were the Twins, I start him in A+ and give him a chance to get some confidence and his bearings with the hope he catches on to promote him to AA after 30 games or so. Then give him the rest of the year at AA unless he looks like Miranda has this year and then maybe a promotion to AAA after the trade deadline. To be on the opening day 2023 roster, Lewis would have to 

• A ) Recover from a completely torn ACL and get back to full speed and look good before spring training games start.
• B ) Knock the cover off the ball while playing vastly improved defense at AA for at least 75 games.
• C ) Continue to shred and play great defense at AAA through the rest of July/August after his promotion
• D ) Look great on a September call up to the MLB team.

If Lewis does all that, he'll be showing a high likelihood of fulfilling his potential ceiling as an MVP caliber shortstop. What an ask considering the situation!

[Nashvilletwin]

59 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'd rather take the chance Lewis works out, and have a great SS signed, than Lewis isn't really good in 2023..... Do people expect him to be good in his first full year in the majors?

They aren't signing two expensive starting pitchers, imo. They probably don't need a third baseman, second baseman, first baseman, catcher, or outfielder...... And Donaldson comes off the books in two years. 

I guess Buxton and an elite pitcher is possible.... But I'd rather sign a SS and Buxton and one great SP.... Which they can afford. I understand others don't agree, and I'm ok with that.

Step one is Buxton. Step two is move Donaldson - he’s a sunk cost - sure it’s cash if we have to pay all or part of his salary, but that ship has sailed and not worth preventing the growth of other players for the future. So after steps one and two, they could certainly still afford a solid #2 SP in 2023 and a SS.  However, a shut down pen is where it’s at in the modern game and I’d be willing to let this team gestate for a year, including seeing how Lewis’ 2022 goes, before prioritizing a SS over the pen. But I definitely see your point. 
 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

If Lewis is ready and our best available shortstop, then we can move Seager or Story or whomever to 3B and our infield defense is all the better.

[ToddlerHarmon]

6 hours ago, bean5302 said:

The Twins have moved on from Gordon. He's not even playing SS in AAA anymore, he's being used as an IF/OF utility guy. He's not going to get a 40 man roster spot. 0% 

Austin Martin couldn't supplant Palacios at SS. 0% 

Jose Miranda hasn't played any significant time at SS since 2016. 0% 

Jorge Polanco. Yeah, I could see the Twins shifting him back over to SS despite being the worst fielding shortstop in the game in the past 20 years. 40%

Royce Lewis. It would be totally bonkers to make him opening day shortstop. Lewis is a prospect who wasn't even treading water at AA at the plate while being absolutely a nightmare in the field in his last full competition experience 2 years ago and is now rehabbing a full tear of his ACL. 0%

JT Riddle. Yeah. MiLB roster filler entering his second year or arbitration eligibility isn't happening. 0%. 

Drew Maggi? He's arbitration eligible next year so he'll be non-tendered. 0%

Jermaine Palacios. I have no idea on this one. He's one of the best SS at AA this year and certainly top 3 who is still sitting in AA despite the fact the Twins have nothing blocking him or on the roster. I really expect the Twins to leave him off the roster. 5%

Andrelton Simmons. LOL all you want, everything seems to point to Simmons being back next year IMHO. He's still playing every day and the Twins haven't even bothered to look at Palacios despite a stellar performance in AA. It's ridiculous, but I can't see why the Twins would be playing Simmons every day at this point if they hadn't decided this year is a fluke and they'll be ohhhhhhh so smart when they sign him for peanuts and they fix him to return him to top form next year... puke. 50%

I think bean has revealed the sad truth here 

[Dman]

6 hours ago, bean5302 said:

The Twins have moved on from Gordon. He's not even playing SS in AAA anymore, he's being used as an IF/OF utility guy. He's not going to get a 40 man roster spot. 0% 

Austin Martin couldn't supplant Palacios at SS. 0% 

Jose Miranda hasn't played any significant time at SS since 2016. 0% 

Jorge Polanco. Yeah, I could see the Twins shifting him back over to SS despite being the worst fielding shortstop in the game in the past 20 years. 40%

Royce Lewis. It would be totally bonkers to make him opening day shortstop. Lewis is a prospect who wasn't even treading water at AA at the plate while being absolutely a nightmare in the field in his last full competition experience 2 years ago and is now rehabbing a full tear of his ACL. 0%

JT Riddle. Yeah. MiLB roster filler entering his second year or arbitration eligibility isn't happening. 0%. 

Drew Maggi? He's arbitration eligible next year so he'll be non-tendered. 0%

Jermaine Palacios. I have no idea on this one. He's one of the best SS at AA this year and certainly top 3 who is still sitting in AA despite the fact the Twins have nothing blocking him or on the roster. I really expect the Twins to leave him off the roster. 5%

Andrelton Simmons. LOL all you want, everything seems to point to Simmons being back next year IMHO. He's still playing every day and the Twins haven't even bothered to look at Palacios despite a stellar performance in AA. It's ridiculous, but I can't see why the Twins would be playing Simmons every day at this point if they hadn't decided this year is a fluke and they'll be ohhhhhhh so smart when they sign him for peanuts and they fix him to return him to top form next year... puke. 50%

Pretty much agree with all of this but will comment on Palacios.  Palacios started the year out with a 900 OPS at one point and has since cooled down to an 830 OPS but he does have 18 HR's which is nothing to sneeze at.  He is not going to be a plus defender at short but could be adequate.  He is the only guy in the system even close to being able to play short in the near term and like you stated it doesn't appear the Twins think he is close to ready or he would be at AAA by now.  Also as you stated he is a top 3 shortstop in his league who can hit for power so if they decide not to add him for whatever reason I have to believe another team will.

To me it comes to Palacios or Gordon.  Gordon can hit but it is small ball at least until recently but Palacios can play and does play short at AA.  The Twins have time to decide as personally for me both players have value but IMO I would keep the one guy that can play shortstop.  Even though Palacios can play short he hasn't been tested at MLB so the Twins would still have to get a vet to play there no matter what.

I agree that unless Royce has a Miranda type season next year he is at least two years away and there is no guarantee that he can stick at short.  It is a vet or bust for the Twins next year IMO.

[Brandon]

7 hours ago, Brandon said:

I think it comes down to Buxton.  Resign him the resign Simmons or Iglesias to be a defense first SS on the cheap till our prospects are ready.  Trade Buxton cause he won't sign.  Then sign an expensive SS who will produce.  We don't need too many holes in the lineup while we fix the pitching staff.

I wanted to add they are or were playing both Lewis and Austin at both SS and CF so 1 of those positions have to give for the upcoming prospects when they are ready.  That would make this about resigning Buxton.  Resign Buxton you sign a cheap SS and let Austin and Lewis replace him when they come up.  Or you trade Buxton and sign an expensive SS and use Lewis and Austin in CF. Good inexpensive SS could be Story but I Think Simmons could be a great teacher and backup player when Lewis and Austin are ready.  I am sure there are other SS options for most of a season.  

[jkcarew]

I agree that Buxton’s situation would have an impact on how they look at SS free agents this year.

Not sure how anyone would draw the conclusion that the Twins see Gordon as a major league SS. They played him there 2 games of the 38 he had with the big club…and it’s not like Simmons was demanding at bats with his performance.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they end up rostering Palacios. I’d put him at more like 20%.

[RpR]

8 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Polanco at SS in 2022

The starting lineup could be:

1. Martin LF

2. Arraez 2B

3. Polanco SS

4. Buxton CF

5. Kiriloff 1B

6. Sano DH

7. Garver C

8. Kepler RF

9. Miranda 3B

Bench: Rooker, Jeffers, Gordon, Larnach

Move Donaldson. (I could see moving Kepler too and starting Larnach and have Celestino be on the bench).

SPs: Maeda plus Jax, Ober, and the rest of the prospects. See who shines. 

Use the cash to begin building a lock down pen.

This team obviously won’t win it all in 2022, but they should be competitive and will set the table for success in 2023 and beyond. 

 

You really want the Twins to lose .

[RpR]

14 hours ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

Why isn't Nick Gordon playing everyday with the Twins? As much as I love and admire Tortuga, Gordon needs to replace him and then play regularly with the Twins. Let's get a free six week look at what we have. 

That is what the minor league is for; not dumping on paying spectators in major league games.

[bean5302]

56 minutes ago, RpR said:

That is what the minor league is for; not dumping on paying spectators in major league games.

I know you bring this up... but Saints games are more expensive than Twins games right now so by this logic, shouldn't the Saints be demanding the Twins demote players so the paying customers can get their money's worth?

[RpR]

1 minute ago, bean5302 said:

I know you bring this up... but Saints games are more expensive than Twins games right now so by this logic, shouldn't the Saints be demanding the Twins demote players so the paying customers can get their money's worth?

The analogy is a Straw-man argument, I will leave it at that.

[stringer bell]

I liked the Simmons acquisition, but soured on him. He’s been dreadful at the plate and made too many miscues at the worst possible moment. He’ll probably bounce back if he gets a chance, but it shouldn’t be here. 

Iglesias doesn’t have the defensive rep of Simmons, but he can hit some, with some power. I would guess that he could be had for one year (no such thing as a bad one-year contract). 
 

I know zero first-hand about Palacios, but I am puzzled by him not getting a promotion to St. Paul. He appears to be ok or better defensively and has quite a bit of power and speed. Does he have a chance?

[Nashvilletwin]

2 hours ago, RpR said:

You really want the Twins to lose .

Nope, I just realize that the Twins are mid market team at best that has probably lost $100MM in cash over the past two seasons. We just can’t expect to sign every FA that you think is the flavour of the day.

The key is to build a strong team with a lot of league minimum contract controlled players then add the key FAs that might make a difference. Hopefully more Cruz than Donaldson.

Who don’t you like in this lineup?  Donaldson (one leg $20+MM) over Miranda?  Cave over Martin? Another Simmons at $10MM over Polanco and Arraez playing every day?  We have 13 or more potential SP prospects - should we get them some innings next year or sign a few more retread FAs?  Are you happy with the pen? Do you disagree that a shut down pen is critical in the modern game of 3-2 counts and 5 inning 90+ pitch starters?

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, RpR said:

The analogy is a Straw-man argument, I will leave it at that.

To be honest, I thought it was more like a strawman wearing a jesters hat and a fat suit. 

[milkytoast]

No mention of Freddy Galvis? I see him as an ideal fit for next year.

[Murph]

I am baffled that the Twins are (WERE) banking on Royce Lewis, a .236 hitter in AA, to jump to the majors and fill the SS role.  Whatever...  We got what we paid for in Simmons, and he's done a good job at that position this year.  He's gotten a few key hits and is a gold-glove fielder.  $18M would not have been too much to pay for Marcus Semien, but the Twins made a decision to fill spots as cheaply as possible.  I doubt that will change.

[Trov]

To me, this article loses all credibility when you mention José Iglesias as a possible signing at SS, but LOL Simmons.  Yes, Simmons has no offense and Iglesias has some, but this year Iglesias has a -21 runs saved per 1,200 innings.  Simmons is plus 13.  Simmons has a positive WAR of 1.  Iglesias has a -.07.  I am fine wanting upgrade over Simmons, but Iglesias is not an upgrade at SS.  

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, Nancy Murphy said:

I am baffled that the Twins are (WERE) banking on Royce Lewis, a .236 hitter in AA, to jump to the majors and fill the SS role.  Whatever...  We got what we paid for in Simmons, and he's done a good job at that position this year.  He's gotten a few key hits and is a gold-glove fielder.  $18M would not have been too much to pay for Marcus Semien, but the Twins made a decision to fill spots as cheaply as possible.  I doubt that will change.

There is no evidence the Twins are banking on him for next year. So I'm not sure I understand?

[AceWrigley]

Pry Taylor Walls away from the Rays. Franco is the Ray's shortstop of the now and future which moved Walls back to AAA.  Could possibly hold down the Twin's shortstop position for a few years. Switch hitter with a decent bat, decent speed, decent glove. can take a walk and get on base. A 3rd round pick in 2017 out of Florida St. U, Walls has moved up the minor league ladder each season holding down the shortstop position at each stop. Could be a nice player for the Twins.

[Murph]

I wasn't talking about next year. My comment could have been "there's nothing new under the sun..."  I don't see the Twins as serious contenders on the field or bidders in building their team.  Banking on Royce Lewis was just one example.