Big Mike Pineda staying.

[Twodogs]

20 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Definitely possible, for sure. It’s also possible teams were aiming higher and Pineda simply fell through the cracks.*

*except for the Cardinals but god only knows what they were doing at the deadline 

Yes the Twins got lucky on the Happ deal for sure.  I thought he was buried on the Twins for the rest of the year.

[Cap'n Piranha]

21 hours ago, Twodogs said:

First off I really don't give a flying you know what, what you think.  I'm telling you what I think!  If you don't like it then don't like it.  But don't sit here and try to be condescending towards me because you don't agree with me and my thoughts.  Because you think based on your fantasy team that you know you know you know how things would have turned out, you don't!!  I can say that Colome did so poorly that the twins had to rotate one guy after another at the back end of the bullpen.  Hand was good enough to pretty much be the guy and even when Washington ended up not being that good Washington was able to trade Hand because he still had value, had anyone offered the Twins a bucket of baseballs for Colome they would have taken it.  So don't sit here and tell me about how Colome was a better signing than Hand would have been.  You don't know, I can speculate that Hand would have done better than Colome, and then I can reach and say maybe in this situation in Minnesota he might have done a little better? Maybe worse, but not worse than Colome and he would have had value at the trade deadline had the Twins still been in this same mess.  

 

So the Twins brought Berrios up through their system to be their guy. He was their best pitcher, the guy you put up against other teams best pitchers.  You get rid of him what's the point of keeping Pineda??  He's on an expiring contract you are praying that the Twins re-sign him so salvage some sort of rotation next year, but they traded the best they had, so who's going to go up against Scherzer, Cole, etc.... Berrios now for that matter who's going to go up against him from the Twins? Pineda, Maeda?  I mean come on, I'm pretty sure Pineda sees it too that's why, unless he feels like he doesnt have the stuff to do better than being with the Twins that I'm pretty sure he's probably thinking dang if someone offers me something elsewhere, at least a good team he will be gone.  No he probably won't leave the Twins for Pittsburgh, but if the Angels come calling or Seattle, etc.... The Twins will have to overpay to keep him in those situations and why?  Might as well go with the young guys, since you gave up on the guy you delveloped to be that guy then it's time to develop some new guys and keeping older #3 - 4 starters around just gets in the way of that.  Maeda is signed for a few years so he might be here still when this new crop develops, but Pineda will not be and so now you are suggesting that he just gives up his ability to compete for something because now it's going to take the Twins a couple of years to put together another staff to make a run again. 

 

Don't talk down to me to tell me what to think!  

Wow, this is...quite the response.  I'll quote you right back at you--I'm telling you what I think.  If you don't like it, then don't like it.  That said, why are you on a message board engaging with other people if you don't give a damn about what they think?  Why not just retreat back to your own echo chamber?  I was in no way condescending, and made no personal statements about you at all.  You can't make the same claim, although for the record, I don't play fantasy baseball, and haven't for years.  You introduced the topic of Hand, and made it out to be some black mark on the Twins front office that they didn't sign him.  I provided all kinds of reasons for why the Twins would have been wary of signing him, and how he's not been a good pitcher this year.  Rather than engage with that, you went even further off topic, and brought up Colome.  So now, on a thread about whether or not the Twins will re-sign Pineda, you've brought up, on your own, two different pitchers.  Also, you're right, I didn't know how things would turn out; trust me, if I could predict the future I would not be spending my time on this comment board, I'd be taking Vegas for all it's worth.  That said, you didn't know how things would turn out either, and if you legitimately think that trading out Colome for Hand would have somehow made the Twins competitive this year, you're dreaming.

As for Berrios, he wasn't a particularly good match against pitchers on the level of Cole or Scherzer.  That's not his fault, but when Berrios is your best starter, you're not going to win playoff series against the likes of NY/LA.  It's also not like the Twins were going to find themselves in the playoffs this year or next, so what is the point of Berrios, exactly?  Will the Twins non-competitiveness prevent them from being able to sign Pineda?  Possibly, if he decides he wants to chase a ring.  But not because they can't afford to match a 2/$20M deal, which is the only point I've been making.

Finial thing--no one is talking down to you.  The moderators here do an excellent job of enforcing standards, and had I actually been dismissive or condescending to you, my post would have been edited, if not completely removed.  If you think someone disagreeing with you based on facts and logical reasoning is talking down to you or telling you what to think, a forum dedicated to conversation and debate is perhaps not the place for you.

[bean5302]

First off, I didn't really think it was necessary to quantify my comment about mentoring being in regard to the Twins and the value of signing players specifically to be mentors without pulling their weight on the field directly through performance. Let me rephrase:

I make no statements and have no significant opinion in regard to mentors and their function across all of society in general and not limited to college studies, mental health, career guidance, makeup application, professional networking, cooking, fishing, woodworking, automotive repair, boat captaining, hair styling or social media influencer status; however, I believe signing veteran MLB players specifically for their ability to mentor younger players on the Twins without said player being expected to provide value at or above their compensation level and with the overall goal of contributing to the team's chances at a World Series Championship is overrated.

Second, really? This level of personal attacking and fighting over Mike Pineda? If Mike Pineda is expected to be some sort of major component to the Twins' success, the team has serious issues, haha.

[Mike Sixel]

11 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

First off, I didn't really think it was necessary to quantify my comment about mentoring being in regard to the Twins and the value of signing players specifically to be mentors without pulling their weight on the field directly through performance. Let me rephrase:

I make no statements and have no significant opinion in regard to mentors and their function across all of society in general and not limited to college studies, mental health, career guidance, makeup application, professional networking, cooking, fishing, woodworking, automotive repair, boat captaining, hair styling or social media influencer status; however, I believe signing veteran MLB players specifically for their ability to mentor younger players on the Twins without said player being expected to provide value at or above their compensation level and with the overall goal of contributing to the team's chances at a World Series Championship is overrated.

Second, really? This level of personal attacking and fighting over Mike Pineda? If Mike Pineda is expected to be some sort of major component to the Twins' success, the team has serious issues, haha.

Except we aren't talking about signing him... We are talking about not dealing him for a prospect. For half a year, where three rotation spots are being used by rookies. I also would not sign a bad player to be a mentor. Of course, he's not a bad player. I'm not sure anyone is saying he's a major component to their long term success, just that there is some value in having a good, veteran, pitcher on the roster to help the rookies. 

[bean5302]

...let me try and fix this further...

I make no statements and have no significant opinion in regard to mentors and their function across all of society in general and not limited to college studies, mental health, career guidance, makeup application, professional networking, cooking, fishing, woodworking, automotive repair, boat captaining, hair styling or social media influencer status; however, I believe making a decision in regard to that player's status as a player in the Twins' organization including, but not limited to offering, signing, retaining, acquiring, assigning, trading, releasing or rostering veteran MLB players specifically for their ability to mentor younger players on the Twins without said player being expected to provide value at or above their compensation level and with the overall goal of contributing to the team's chances at a World Series Championship is overrated.

[Twodogs]

12 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Wow, this is...quite the response.  I'll quote you right back at you--I'm telling you what I think.  If you don't like it, then don't like it.  That said, why are you on a message board engaging with other people if you don't give a damn about what they think?  Why not just retreat back to your own echo chamber?  I was in no way condescending, and made no personal statements about you at all.  You can't make the same claim, although for the record, I don't play fantasy baseball, and haven't for years.  You introduced the topic of Hand, and made it out to be some black mark on the Twins front office that they didn't sign him.  I provided all kinds of reasons for why the Twins would have been wary of signing him, and how he's not been a good pitcher this year.  Rather than engage with that, you went even further off topic, and brought up Colome.  So now, on a thread about whether or not the Twins will re-sign Pineda, you've brought up, on your own, two different pitchers.  Also, you're right, I didn't know how things would turn out; trust me, if I could predict the future I would not be spending my time on this comment board, I'd be taking Vegas for all it's worth.  That said, you didn't know how things would turn out either, and if you legitimately think that trading out Colome for Hand would have somehow made the Twins competitive this year, you're dreaming.

As for Berrios, he wasn't a particularly good match against pitchers on the level of Cole or Scherzer.  That's not his fault, but when Berrios is your best starter, you're not going to win playoff series against the likes of NY/LA.  It's also not like the Twins were going to find themselves in the playoffs this year or next, so what is the point of Berrios, exactly?  Will the Twins non-competitiveness prevent them from being able to sign Pineda?  Possibly, if he decides he wants to chase a ring.  But not because they can't afford to match a 2/$20M deal, which is the only point I've been making.

Finial thing--no one is talking down to you.  The moderators here do an excellent job of enforcing standards, and had I actually been dismissive or condescending to you, my post would have been edited, if not completely removed.  If you think someone disagreeing with you based on facts and logical reasoning is talking down to you or telling you what to think, a forum dedicated to conversation and debate is perhaps not the place for you.

First off, I definitely felt like you were being condescending with your response, if I didn't, I wouldn't have responded in the way that I did.  If you look at all of my responses I can't remember the last time I have gotten irritated like that, probably back into the days of Dankind.  Nonetheless, I have no problems with people disagreeing with takes or thoughts as I can disagree with them also.  However, when you get snide with me in so much as saying that I am making a "Strawman" argument when I said that Hand was worth more than Colome then yes you are being condescending.  Yes I retaliated.  My rebuttal to Hand vs Colome is, yes Hand did not pitch particularly great this year, but who was able to bring back something in a trade?  It wasn't Colome, and I know everyone can say, (well how do you know that the Twins tried to trade him)?  But you know if someone had offered something for Colome the Twins would have jumped at it, just like they did with Happ.  So Hand, in my opinion, was worth more than Colome; he would have cost a few more million, not much, but he really wouldn't have because they would have received a prospect for him and his new team would be finishing up paying him his salary so when you take that into consideration he "might" have been cheaper?  Yes, he probably does not make a difference with the Twins this year, but the Twins wouldn't have been worse that is for sure, and who know 2 or 3 of those early season blown games if they go in the Twins direction maybe they would have gotten on a roll?? Sometimes it doesn't take much to change outcomes, but that is a stretch for sure, but they wouldn't have been worse and they would have been able to move him. 

 

Then to say that when I brought up the point the it could be probable that other teams will out bid the Twins for Pineda was "Specious" was again a underhanded way of talking down to me.  It's fine that you bring up the points that the Twins could afford him, of course they could, and he would fit into the back end of their rotation or anyone's for that matter.  But it is not actually wrong that a team could outbid the Twins, I mean it happens all of the time and it might happen again with Buxton if the Twins let it by not offering him a real contract.  The Twins have been getting out bid by teams pretty much for their entire existence they have a very short track record of actually winning any bidding wars with teams.  Now when they have it was with home grown players usually guys like Puckett and Mauer.  But to make that argument is by no means specious.  I agree with you if I could predict the future I would be in Vegas also.  Berrios is a little bit flawed, but if they can't bring him back then how would they sign someone better?  So my point is that Berrios is kind of a #1, but not a #1 who can match up with the likes of Cole.  So they would need to get a guy like Syndergard to be the #1 and push Berrios to #2 that would make Maeda a #3/4 depending upon what one of the young guys do.  Now the Twins have a shot at winning a playoff series, I think you kind of probably agree with that.  So my point has been tht since they got rid of Berrios, that pretty much shows that they are starting over with the rotation with the young guys which means they won't be competitive for a couple of years.  Since most likely they won't be competitive why would the Twins get into any type of bidding war for Pineda's services and if Pineda wants to get to the playoffs with a shot at something he will have to leave in order to do it because he doesn't really have that much time left if you look at the average life of a pitcher in MLB.  So some team out there that is trying to get somewhere next year that needs a guy in #4 slot could target Pineda and would have good reason to out bid the Twins by a million to get what they need because the Twins really don't need him if they most likely aren't going to compete as they might as well see what Dobnak et.al. can really do if they get a shot.  But had you just gave your points as to why you disagreed with me, I may or may not have responded, I responded in the way I did because you were condescending and talking down to me. Not overtly but in an backhanded sort of way.  When I responded the way I did, I wasn't trying to be snide or backhanded I was letting you know how I felt straight up.  Im cool with people disagreeing with me in any discussion as I am entitled to my opinion and so are you, but I'm not going to take any crap and that's why I came back at you the way I did.  I think in the end we both want the Twins to do well.

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 8/5/2021 at 10:18 PM, Twodogs said:

First off, I definitely felt like you were being condescending with your response, if I didn't, I wouldn't have responded in the way that I did.  If you look at all of my responses I can't remember the last time I have gotten irritated like that, probably back into the days of Dankind.  Nonetheless, I have no problems with people disagreeing with takes or thoughts as I can disagree with them also.  However, when you get snide with me in so much as saying that I am making a "Strawman" argument when I said that Hand was worth more than Colome then yes you are being condescending.  Yes I retaliated.  My rebuttal to Hand vs Colome is, yes Hand did not pitch particularly great this year, but who was able to bring back something in a trade?  It wasn't Colome, and I know everyone can say, (well how do you know that the Twins tried to trade him)?  But you know if someone had offered something for Colome the Twins would have jumped at it, just like they did with Happ.  So Hand, in my opinion, was worth more than Colome; he would have cost a few more million, not much, but he really wouldn't have because they would have received a prospect for him and his new team would be finishing up paying him his salary so when you take that into consideration he "might" have been cheaper?  Yes, he probably does not make a difference with the Twins this year, but the Twins wouldn't have been worse that is for sure, and who know 2 or 3 of those early season blown games if they go in the Twins direction maybe they would have gotten on a roll?? Sometimes it doesn't take much to change outcomes, but that is a stretch for sure, but they wouldn't have been worse and they would have been able to move him. 

 

Then to say that when I brought up the point the it could be probable that other teams will out bid the Twins for Pineda was "Specious" was again a underhanded way of talking down to me.  It's fine that you bring up the points that the Twins could afford him, of course they could, and he would fit into the back end of their rotation or anyone's for that matter.  But it is not actually wrong that a team could outbid the Twins, I mean it happens all of the time and it might happen again with Buxton if the Twins let it by not offering him a real contract.  The Twins have been getting out bid by teams pretty much for their entire existence they have a very short track record of actually winning any bidding wars with teams.  Now when they have it was with home grown players usually guys like Puckett and Mauer.  But to make that argument is by no means specious.  I agree with you if I could predict the future I would be in Vegas also.  Berrios is a little bit flawed, but if they can't bring him back then how would they sign someone better?  So my point is that Berrios is kind of a #1, but not a #1 who can match up with the likes of Cole.  So they would need to get a guy like Syndergard to be the #1 and push Berrios to #2 that would make Maeda a #3/4 depending upon what one of the young guys do.  Now the Twins have a shot at winning a playoff series, I think you kind of probably agree with that.  So my point has been tht since they got rid of Berrios, that pretty much shows that they are starting over with the rotation with the young guys which means they won't be competitive for a couple of years.  Since most likely they won't be competitive why would the Twins get into any type of bidding war for Pineda's services and if Pineda wants to get to the playoffs with a shot at something he will have to leave in order to do it because he doesn't really have that much time left if you look at the average life of a pitcher in MLB.  So some team out there that is trying to get somewhere next year that needs a guy in #4 slot could target Pineda and would have good reason to out bid the Twins by a million to get what they need because the Twins really don't need him if they most likely aren't going to compete as they might as well see what Dobnak et.al. can really do if they get a shot.  But had you just gave your points as to why you disagreed with me, I may or may not have responded, I responded in the way I did because you were condescending and talking down to me. Not overtly but in an backhanded sort of way.  When I responded the way I did, I wasn't trying to be snide or backhanded I was letting you know how I felt straight up.  Im cool with people disagreeing with me in any discussion as I am entitled to my opinion and so are you, but I'm not going to take any crap and that's why I came back at you the way I did.  I think in the end we both want the Twins to do well.

Bro, you gotta calm down a little bit.  Saying you're making a strawman argument is not condescending when it's what you were doing. When you brought up Hand, I talked about how Hand has not been good this year, and out of nowhere, you brought up Colome.  We weren't discussing bullpen signings; I didn't say Hand was worse than Colome.  You brought that up, on your own, even though it was in no way related to anything that was being discussed.  I said I didn't think the Twins would be incapable of matching a 2/$20m for Pineda, and you brought up the Twins not giving 1/$10M to Hand as evidence that they wouldn't offer that.  I gave ample explanation for why Hand may not have been attractive to the FO, and therefore would not have wanted to spend $10M on him, but would want to spend it on Pineda (since Pineda has been a better pitcher).  Bringing Colome into this is completely outside the parameters of the conversations (would the Twins match a hypothetical 2/$20M offer to Pineda), and as such, is a strawman argument.  To be clear, making strawman arguments doesn't make you a bad person or anything, and it certainly doesn't mean I think I'm better than you.  It means you're not engaging honestly in the debate.  Stop taking non-personal things personally.

As for using the word specious, I'm not sure how that's talking down to you.  It's a fairly common English word--I'm not dropping archaic German words on you, and then taunting you when you can't define them.  If you'd prefer, I can rephrase what I originally said--given that the Twins did not move Pineda at the deadline, either the rest of the league is not particularly interested in Pineda (bearing in mind that there was a team who gave two actual human players for J.A. Happ), or the Twins are REALLY interested in Pineda.  Either way, this would suggest that this offseason there won't be some crazy bidding war for Pineda's services, nor will he be able to get 2/$20M from any team he wants.  If he wants to chase a ring, he may have to take a discount, and if he wants the biggest contract offered, it may come from a team not ready to compete for a ring.  Stating that Pineda will go elsewhere to get a ring and a 2/$20M contract is plausible, but doesn't add up when you take into account no team was willing to make a legitimate trade for him 10 days ago (or the Twins want him so bad they wouldn't trade him, implying they'll match just about any offer),

I'm honestly sorry that you feel condescended to, and talked down to, but that's just not based in objective reality.  If I was objectively condescending you, as I mentioned before, a moderator would have quickly posted a warning in the thread, deleted my post, and probably locked the thread.  As none of that has happened, I think I can safely say I've not been rude nor dismissive to you.  With that, I'll be moving on from this--hope to see you in some other threads!