José Berríos Traded to Blue Jays

[Melissa]

2 hours ago, 70charger said:

That sounds like the exact opposite of job security. 
 

I completely disagree with these takes. 

I thought it was meant as humor (?)

[Cap'n Piranha]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Sure, if they got one of the best prospects in the game, I do it......but that seems pretty unlikely.

They need at least one veteran to mentor the young guys this year. 

Right, that's the point.  Why is listening and setting a ridiculous asking price bad?  Worst case scenario, you get an idea for how some other teams view Maeda at this point in time--if it turns out the league thinks 2020 was a fluke, that's valuable info.  If they think the beginning of 2021 is the fluke, that's valuable too.  Best case scenario you get a top 5 prospect who could be a star for years to come.  Veterans to mentor the young starting pitchers can be easily obtained in the offseason, particularly when you have $40M or so to play with.  Top 5 prospects can't be obtained easily at all in the offseason, no matter how much money you have.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Right, that's the point.  Why is listening and setting a ridiculous asking price bad?  Worst case scenario, you get an idea for how some other teams view Maeda at this point in time--if it turns out the league thinks 2020 was a fluke, that's valuable info.  If they think the beginning of 2021 is the fluke, that's valuable too.  Best case scenario you get a top 5 prospect who could be a star for years to come.  Veterans to mentor the young starting pitchers can be easily obtained in the offseason, particularly when you have $40M or so to play with.  Top 5 prospects can't be obtained easily at all in the offseason, no matter how much money you have.

I'm literally talking about mentoring this year.....next year I expect a FA and a trade for a veteran (assuming they deal one or both of Maeda/Pineda).

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Sweet, never play anyone over 25 then. They might suck at some point,

I think the point is that it's all a risk. There's no move that carries no risk. Paying Berrios 25-30m a year doesn't mean he's going to stay healthy and keep producing. The Pohlads spending more money than the team makes doesn't mean they're going to win a World Series. The Dodgers have been spending crazy amounts for 10 years and have 1 title to show for it. The Padres have spent on anyone and everyone for years and are in 3rd place in their division. The Sox had a 200m(ish) payroll last year and didn't make the playoffs. Cubs outspend the vast majority of teams and just blew up their team.

Is trading Berrios fun for any fan when it comes to this season? Absolutely not. But holding onto him in some last ditch effort to compete next year when your odds of catching the White Sox are incredibly small isn't that much fun either. He's going to the highest bidder for 2023. If the Twins are that team then he'll be back here.

[Cap'n Piranha]

9 minutes ago, h2oface said:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/07/twins-cardinals-trade-j-a-happ-john-gant.html

No more JA Happ. THAT makes me Happy. Not for the return, just so I don't have to watch Happ pitch anymore.

The fact that the Twins were able to turn 38 year old Happ on an expiring deal into a guy who has essentially the same numbers as Happ, but is 28 with another year of control AND a minor leaguer to boot is pretty strong evidence that Falvine aren't incompetent (or that Mike Girsch, GM of the Cardinals, is an absolute disaster).

[Cap'n Piranha]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm literally talking about mentoring this year.....next year I expect a FA and a trade for a veteran (assuming they deal one or both of Maeda/Pineda).

Ahh, gotcha.  True, if they trade both Maeda and Pineda, there's not a whole lot of experience left to impart!

[Cap'n Piranha]

9 minutes ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Sweet, never play anyone over 25 then. They might suck at some point,

Sweet, disband your entire farm system, and just sign free agents.  Then you never have to worry about prospects failing.

[h2oface]

20 minutes left and we still thankfully have Buxton.  

[USAFChief]

7 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

The fact that the Twins were able to turn 38 year old Happ on an expiring deal into a guy who has essentially the same numbers as Happ, but is 28 with another year of control AND a minor leaguer to boot is pretty strong evidence that Falvine aren't incompetent (or that Mike Girsch, GM of the Cardinals, is an absolute disaster).

That's pretty conveniently leaving out the part about Falvine giving Happ cash and a guaranteed spot in a supposedly contending team's rotation in the first place. 

 

Not to mention he got nothing of any actual value back. 

 

I AM happy I don't ever have to watch Happ take the mound in a Twins uniform again, so there's that.

[h2oface]

13 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

The fact that the Twins were able to turn 38 year old Happ on an expiring deal into a guy who has essentially the same numbers as Happ, but is 28 with another year of control AND a minor leaguer to boot is pretty strong evidence that Falvine aren't incompetent (or that Mike Girsch, GM of the Cardinals, is an absolute disaster).

Not incompetent. But they did create this problem with all their cheap pitching signings and failures. They are now ripping a team apart because of those failures. I don't like it one bit. It could have been all way different.

And the fact that they ever signed Happ in the first place (and Shoemaker) to inflict this horror on the team and fans leans them back toward incompetent a bit......

[TheLeviathan]

Martin is exactly the guy I was eye-balling if the Jays were the team that landed him.  I preferred San Diego's SS, but I'll take this return!

[wyowib]

14 minutes ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Well, can you see why this might be frustrating for someone who only wants their team to win to see said team take three steps back for every step forward year after year after year?

They aren't losing money. The only thing preventing the Pohlads from building a winning team is themselves.

Enjoyed the back and forth!

When was the last time the team made a trade like this?  I'm thinking Santana.  The Twins haven't had an identity in a very long time, they've been treading water like Seattle.  In the mean time the Cubs and Astros committed to rebuilds and won WS, Padres committed and look to be a force, White Sox committed (even trading a pretty good pitcher to start) and look to be a force, Red Sox traded their best player and are making the play offs this year, and the Tigers who are in full rebuild, are currently 6 games ahead of a team who some fans thought could compete next year.  I'm sick of treading water with hope.  White Sox and Padres went through down times but I'm sure their fan base is pretty happy right now.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

That's pretty conveniently leaving out the part about Falvine giving Happ cash and a guaranteed spot in a supposedly contending team's rotation in the first place. 

And now another team has watched him do what he's done here and STILL think he's worthwhile on their contending team.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s my concern right now… 2022. Sports is an entertainment first business, and the team won’t be competitive/entertaining for the foreseeable future. The next 2 months for sure are going to be unwatchable. 

That's different than the last four months....how?  I guess we can just stay with a bad team and just hope that we magically become not bad?

I don't understand this mentality.  The disappointment is already a reality, no reason to double down out of obstinance.

[RpR]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

That's different than the last four months....how?  I guess we can just stay with a bad team and just hope that we magically become not bad?

I don't understand this mentality.  The disappointment is already a reality, no reason to double down out of obstinance.

Better than becoming  a worse team a driving spectators away for the next ten years.

From 1971 to 1984 the Twins has One Million or more spectators for 2 whole years with a whopping 600 some thousand in 1974, yep, bring on the rookies and drive away the people who make the team money, Brilliant.

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, wyowib said:

When was the last time the team made a trade like this?  I'm thinking Santana.  The Twins haven't had an identity in a very long time, they've been treading water like Seattle.  In the mean time the Cubs and Astros committed to rebuilds and won WS, Padres committed and look to be a force, White Sox committed (even trading a pretty good pitcher to start) and look to be a force, Red Sox traded their best player and are making the play offs this year, and the Tigers who are in full rebuild, are currently 6 games ahead of a team who some fans thought could compete next year.  I'm sick of treading water with hope.  White Sox and Padres went through down times but I'm sure their fan base is pretty happy right now.

And I'd argue the Twins "rebuild" right now is going to much quicker than any team you mentioned. They'll come back with a solid offense still next year and have at least 50m to play with for rebuilding the pitching. Plus they have brought in all players who are looking to debut this year or next. Absolutely no guarantee they hit on all, or even most, of their prospects, but their upper minors are loaded with guys ready to get their chance. I think this has been about as good of an outcome from this disaster of a year as possible.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, RpR said:

Better than becoming  a worse team a driving spectators away for the next ten years.

From 1971 to 1984 the Twins has One Million or more spectators for 2 whole years with a whopping 600 some thousand in 1974, yep, bring on the rookies and drive away the people who make the team money, Brilliant.

Next 10 years?! Dang, they're not going to hit on any prospects are they?

[RpR]

Yah sure, they can move the Twins down to the AAA league, that is what it is starting to look like.

[TheLeviathan]

6 minutes ago, RpR said:

Better than becoming  a worse team a driving spectators away for the next ten years.

From 1971 to 1984 the Twins has One Million or more spectators for 2 whole years with a whopping 600 some thousand in 1974, yep, bring on the rookies and drive away the people who make the team money, Brilliant.

Winning will put butts in the seat.  Staying with a bad team and changing nothing will not change that.

[RpR]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Next 10 years?! Dang, they're not going to hit on any prospects are they?

Buxton, Sano , Hicks the future of the Minnesota Twins, was all I heard 10 years ago, then came Rosario, Cave, Berrios, hmmm , we have beaten the Yankees once this year due to veterans added recently , those future of the Twins rookies were meh, even the best of them.

One of the TV announcers said during game a last week that the Twins not having a steady team is not good for them as people , especially children come to see their favorite players; kids are not going to become attached to a team where player are here today and gone tomorrow which is what is going on right now.

[chpettit19]

Just now, RpR said:

Buxton, Sano , Hicks the future of the Minnesota Twins, was all I heard 10 years ago, then came Rosario, Cave, Berrios, hmmm , we have beaten the Yankees once this year due to veterans added recently , those future of the Twins rookies were meh, even the best of them.

So your argument is that the Twins have been bad this year because of the veterans added recently so the Twins should acquire veterans so they aren't bad? 

[Mill1634]

As good as the Berrios trade was, not moving Pineda is an epic failure. I don't care if the offers are below what you deem necessary, get SOMETHING for him. An absolute failure by the front office.

[Cap'n Piranha]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I think the point is that it's all a risk. There's no move that carries no risk. Paying Berrios 25-30m a year doesn't mean he's going to stay healthy and keep producing. The Pohlads spending more money than the team makes doesn't mean they're going to win a World Series. The Dodgers have been spending crazy amounts for 10 years and have 1 title to show for it. The Padres have spent on anyone and everyone for years and are in 3rd place in their division. The Sox had a 200m(ish) payroll last year and didn't make the playoffs. Cubs outspend the vast majority of teams and just blew up their team.

Is trading Berrios fun for any fan when it comes to this season? Absolutely not. But holding onto him in some last ditch effort to compete next year when your odds of catching the White Sox are incredibly small isn't that much fun either. He's going to the highest bidder for 2023. If the Twins are that team then he'll be back here.

This is what I never get about the "SpEnD iN FA!!!!!!" crowd.  It guarantees nothing, and often produces nothing, yet is universally treated as a surefire way to make the playoffs.

[RpR]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

So your argument is that the Twins have been bad this year because of the veterans added recently so the Twins should acquire veterans so they aren't bad? 

The Twins are bad because the relief pitchers are a curse not a relief; dumping good bats, as a huge number of people here have suggested for rookies, is not going to make the Twins better.

Keeping a solid defense and offense, is vital to winning but now the Twins just dumped there one decent pitcher and many want to dump the best of the rest for Pie-in-the-Sky rookies.

Remember player in A league are rookies to professional baseball and they are rookies, not prospects each time they move up a league, people here talk like they are magic men whose deficiencies in the minors will magically disappear and make the Twins a winner.

Refsnyder and Garlick were doing OK because they were minor league veterans, with one exception what came after them were raw rookies and play like them.

[Cap'n Piranha]

27 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

That's pretty conveniently leaving out the part about Falvine giving Happ cash and a guaranteed spot in a supposedly contending team's rotation in the first place. 

 

Not to mention he got nothing of any actual value back. 

 

I AM happy I don't ever have to watch Happ take the mound in a Twins uniform again, so there's that.

A 24 year old whose clock hasn't started striking out 12.6/9 with a 3.60 ERA despite a .347 BABIP in AA has no value?  If they fix his walk rate and his batted ball luck neutralizes, that's a pretty valuable piece in the bullpen.  Mind you, I'm not saying that WILL happen, I'm just saying the possibility of it happening has value.

Also, for what it's worth, I didn't say Falvine is competent, I said this trade proves they're not incompetent--we'd all gladly have taken Gant or Sisk over Happ right?  SO to get both for Happ?  Seems pretty good to me.

[wyowib]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

And I'd argue the Twins "rebuild" right now is going to much quicker than any team you mentioned. They'll come back with a solid offense still next year and have at least 50m to play with for rebuilding the pitching. Plus they have brought in all players who are looking to debut this year or next. Absolutely no guarantee they hit on all, or even most, of their prospects, but their upper minors are loaded with guys ready to get their chance. I think this has been about as good of an outcome from this disaster of a year as possible.

100% agree.  I cheered when Berrios was drafted, I knew who he was and wanted him, love the dude.  But, this disaster season is quite the opportunity to shuffle assets/sunk costs into possible future success for the reason you stated.  This team is in better position than the ones I mentioned due to young highly thought of players getting their feet wet, young-ish players who have shown talent in the past and are on team friendly deals, high quality/deep farm system that is now being supplemented, high draft pick (at least next year) and MOST importantly; no name prospects who are at least causing people to take notice (such as Winder), when was the last time the Twins had a prospect come out of nowhere (1 second baseman in the past 20 years?) the way a team like Tampa or even Cleveland seems to have done recently.  I feel this was a perfect storm to establish an identity that could very well be a quick turn around (2023 "surprise" team)

[Monticore]

Don't like it. If they had gotten Bichette, maybe. Berrios will be missed.

[Cap'n Piranha]

31 minutes ago, h2oface said:

Not incompetent. But they did create this problem with all their cheap pitching signings and failures. They are now ripping a team apart because of those failures. I don't like it one bit. It could have been all way different.

And the fact that they ever signed Happ in the first place (and Shoemaker) to inflict this horror on the team and fans leans them back toward incompetent a bit......

Ok Armchair GM; which plausible moves would you have made this offseason that would have been clearly better both now AND before the 2021 season started?

[Cap'n Piranha]

23 minutes ago, RpR said:

Better than becoming  a worse team a driving spectators away for the next ten years.

From 1971 to 1984 the Twins has One Million or more spectators for 2 whole years with a whopping 600 some thousand in 1974, yep, bring on the rookies and drive away the people who make the team money, Brilliant.

1,000,000 fans a year in 81 games is an average of 12,345 a game.  From 1971-1984 the average attendance for ALL of MLB was 18,144 a game, or less than 1.5M.  Fans go to the games of teams who win games (assuming they're interested in going), rather than teams who lose games but have stars.

[Bomba2026]

Well everyone seems really happy....Because when you have the worst team in BB you want to trade away your Best Pitcher.  Berrios had a year left so what was the hurry? If the Twins could score a run when he pitched he'd have a good record so don't blame him. The Twins are full of Prospects and they all love to give up runs in the 8th innings....I think the Owner should trade the front office. Double curse of Eddie and Jose!