José Berríos Traded to Blue Jays

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, RpR said:

The Twins are bad because the relief pitchers are a curse not a relief; dumping good bats, as a huge number of people here have suggested for rookies, is not going to make the Twins better.

Keeping a solid defense and offense, is vital to winning but now the Twins just dumped there one decent pitcher and many want to dump the best of the rest for Pie-in-the-Sky rookies.

Remember player in A league are rookies to professional baseball and they are rookies, not prospects each time they move up a league, people here talk like they are magic men who deficiencies in the minors will magically disappear and make the Twins a winner.

Refsnyder and Garlick were doing OK because they were minor league veterans, with one exception what came after them were raw rookies and play like them.

I don't think the Twins got anyone in A ball this deadline (I may have missed a deal). They brought in 2 arms for Cruz that should debut in the next few weeks. They brought in 2 AA players for Berrios who should debut next year. The traded Happ for living, breathing humans which is some sort of voodoo hex move. 

The Twins are a bad team this year. They have a very good chance of finishing in last place in the division. They likely weren't going to catch the White Sox next year with Berrios and he's made it abundantly clear that he's going to the highest bidder in 2023. Keeping him for 1 more year where they were still not going to win the division doesn't make sense. Cruz was on an expiring deal. Keeping him for 2 more months doesn't make sense. Happ has been awful and is on an expiring deal so keeping him had no value. 

What would your plan have been today? Keep the whole team? Build a team around the likes of Refsnyder and Garlick? Of all the different plans for building a team that are thrown around on these message boards I think trying to build around career minor leaguers is the least likely to work. They're career minor leaguers for a reason. Every team builds through the minors. Even the Dodgers and Yankees. They can supplement their young guys better, but they're built through calling guys like Buehler, Bellinger, Smith, Seager, Urias up. How would you build the Twins given the team they had coming into July this year?

[RpR]

Just now, Bomba2026 said:

Well everyone seems really happy....Because when you have the worst team in BB you want to trade away your Best Pitcher.  Berrios had a year left so what was the hurry? If the Twins could score a run when he pitched he'd have a good record so don't blame him. The Twins are full of Prospects and they all love to give up runs in the 8th innings....I think the Owner should trade the front office. Double curse of Eddie and Jose! 

BRAVO!!!

[Cap'n Piranha]

3 minutes ago, Bomba2026 said:

Well everyone seems really happy....Because when you have the worst team in BB you want to trade away your Best Pitcher.  Berrios had a year left so what was the hurry? If the Twins could score a run when he pitched he'd have a good record so don't blame him. The Twins are full of Prospects and they all love to give up runs in the 8th innings....I think the Owner should trade the front office. Double curse of Eddie and Jose! 

This would be the Eddie Rosario with a sub-.700 OPS, an 84 wRC+, and whose new team traded him away in 4 months?  That Eddie?

The hurry in trading Berrios is that if you wait to trade him until next year, your best case scenario is 1 top 100 prospect, and your worst case scenario is he needs Tommy John, and you can't even QO him for a comp pick, meaning you get literally nothing.

[wyowib]

28 minutes ago, RpR said:

Buxton, Sano , Hicks the future of the Minnesota Twins, was all I heard 10 years ago, then came Rosario, Cave, Berrios, hmmm , we have beaten the Yankees once this year due to veterans added recently , those future of the Twins rookies were meh, even the best of them.

One of the TV announcers said during game a last week that the Twins not having a steady team is not good for them as people , especially children come to see their favorite players; kids are not going to become attached to a team where player are here today and gone tomorrow which is what is going on right now.

Not to split hairs here, but Buxton and Berrios were drafted in 2012, Rosario and Sano came up together with Rosario out homering Sano (at low A 21-20 IIRC) and Cave didn't come until 2018.  This current FO rolled dice on the pasts' highly regarded prospects but that lead to a good not great team, I have a feeling they want to try things their way now, if it works, then plenty of young fans will get attached, if not, then it's no different than the past decade plus

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

10 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

The hurry in trading Berrios is that if you wait to trade him until next year, your best case scenario is 1 top 100 prospect, and your worst case scenario is he needs Tommy John, and you can't even QO him for a comp pick, meaning you get literally nothing.

No, the best case scenario for keeping Berrios in 2022 is that the team wins again and goes deep into the postseason—maybe even the World Series— and gives the fan base a fun, thrilling story to follow along with, and generates a ton of good will and positive media.

[Bomba2026]

If the fans in the stands like the players they will PAY to come to the game. If the fans want to see Triple A ball they will pay way less to see the Saints....The dugout looks just as sad.  Half of the players worried about where they are going to end up and the other half just don't seem to mesh like they did in the Bomba era.... 

[In My La Z boy]

This trade and the Cruz trade were a clear win in a year to forget. By next spring we could have just received our top 3 prospects - we'll certainly have 5 in the major league top 100, and we even got players for Robles and Happ. Now I'd get Big Mike locked up, Byron locked up, and give the ball to Windor, Barnes et all, and also let's see big mouth Shoemaker on the mound this weekend.

[Cap'n Piranha]

4 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

No, the best case scenario for keeping Berrios in 2022 is that the team wins again and goes deep into the postseason—maybe even the World Series— and gives the fan base a fun, thrilling story to follow along with, and generates a ton of good will and positive media.

And my best case scenario is that Jeff Bezos bequeaths his fortune to me, and then I discover a formula for immaculate immortality.

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Sweet, never play anyone over 25 then. They might suck at some point,

So, in other words, you don't want to be bothered with facts and to portray my statement as meaning what you have is absurd and petty.  Every losing team in the league is following similar practices, they just did not do it as well as the twins this year.  Yet, you assume all of the baseball executives operating the same way are stupid apparently.  

[jkcarew]

It’s probably exactly as likely that the Twins will regret trading Berrios as it is they’ll end up regretting not trading Buxton.

There was a good argument for keeping Berrios…but it begins and ends with 2022. Buxton? How much lower will offers be in the off season if he isn’t extended by then…if parties drift further, not closer, to an agreement? He’s not a guy I give huge money to, be he’s not a guy you can just let walk either.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, jkcarew said:

It’s probably exactly as likely that the Twins will regret trading Berrios as it is they’ll end up regretting not trading Buxton.

There was a good argument for keeping Berrios…but it begins and ends with 2022. Buxton? How much lower will offers be in the off season if he isn’t extended by then…if parties drift further, not closer, to an agreement? He’s not a guy I give huge money to, be he’s not a guy you can just let walk either.

Given he might not play this year, I don't think his value is more/less in the off season than now. Unlike Berrios. But then, I'd sign Buxton to a deal. 

I predict there is a Buxton deal in the next 7 days!

[gbg]

Let's try and talk about this without jumping down each others' throats, shall we? Starting to get a little unconstructive the last couple comment pages, imo.

Seeing big names leave the team hurts, absolutely. For those eternal optimists like me, we have to finally admit that we really aren't going to win the World Series this year. 

I like the return on this trade. As Passan said "a massive haul for a year and a half of Berriors" Will be interesting to see what's hit Woods-Richardson the past six weeks. He was having a nice season and then late June everything fell apart. Maybe the Olympics prep messed him up a bit?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

11 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

And my best case scenario is that Jeff Bezos bequeaths his fortune to me, and then I discover a formula for immaculate immortality.

I made an honest reply to you.

This next reply of yours is unserious.

The deadline is past. The roster going into 2022 is the essentially the same roster of 2019 and 2020, but with worse pitching.

 

[wyowib]

17 minutes ago, Bomba2026 said:

If the fans in the stands like the players they will PAY to come to the game. If the fans want to see Triple A ball they will pay way less to see the Saints....The dugout looks just as sad.  Half of the players worried about where they are going to end up and the other half just don't seem to mesh like they did in the Bomba era.... 

The Twins are tied for 2nd in MLB in HR's, the "Bomba Era" was 2 years ago, last full season, I'd like the focus to be on building a legit WS contender, not selling tickets for the sake of selling tickets, "if you win it, they will come (and make the P-dogs that much richer)"

[jkcarew]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Given he might not play this year, I don't think his value is more/less in the off season than now. Unlike Berrios. But then, I'd sign Buxton to a deal. 

I predict there is a Buxton deal in the next 7 days!

Yeah…that’s a good point….in my brain, I had him back by playoff time.

Need to trade him this off season if you haven’t signed him by then, though. I’m very ok (happy) signing Buxton for something close to the rumored numbers. But not substantially more, IMO.

We’ll see!

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I made an honest reply to you.

This next reply of yours is unserious.

The deadline is past. The roster going into 2022 is the essentially the same roster of 2019 and 2020, but with worse pitching.

 

We don't have any idea what the pitching going into 2022 will be. We only know it won't have Berrios now. They'll have 50+m to spend this offseason (based on the predicted 40m+not paying Berrios his arb salary). If I read your post right you're suggesting they'll have basically the same offense as 2019 and 2020 (agreed), but now they're going into the offseason with Maeda in the rotation and Duffey, Rogers, Alacala in the pen. The question is can they turn 50M and their current upper level prospects into a competitive pitching staff for next year. I think there's a chance. At least as good of a chance as doing it with Berrios, 40m, and no Woods Richardson (or Martin for the offense).

[se7799]

4 hours ago, In My La Z boy said:

Throw in Joe Ryan and we now have 3 new prospects for our top 10. Where will these new guys slot in do you think?

Not to single you out, but....teams don not win a world serious, just based on prospects.  I'd rather have LA Makina

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, se7799 said:

Not to single you out, but....teams don not win a world serious, just based on prospects.  I'd rather have LA Makina

But you need prospects to build a team that can win the World Series. Nobody is building their team off FA and MLB player trades alone. The Dodgers aren't the Dodgers without Buehler, Urias, Seager, Smith, Bellinger, Gonsolin, and May. All of which are players they called up and are still not FA eligible.

[wyowib]

4 minutes ago, se7799 said:

Not to single you out, but....teams don not win a world serious, just based on prospects.  I'd rather have LA Makina

No, but do they put themselves in position for a legitimate (key word) chance in the future, especially after a lost season.  Much like the Cubs, Astros, Royals have done in recent memory, and like the Padres and White Sox are in the middle of doing.

[TheLeviathan]

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

We don't have any idea what the pitching going into 2022 will be. We only know it won't have Berrios now. They'll have 50+m to spend this offseason (based on the predicted 40m+not paying Berrios his arb salary). If I read your post right you're suggesting they'll have basically the same offense as 2019 and 2020 (agreed), but now they're going into the offseason with Maeda in the rotation and Duffey, Rogers, Alacala in the pen. The question is can they turn 50M and their current upper level prospects into a competitive pitching staff for next year. I think there's a chance. At least as good of a chance as doing it with Berrios, 40m, and no Woods Richardson (or Martin for the offense).

This is really well said.  Yeah, it sucks to lose Jose.  He's probably my favorite Twin, but the Twins pitching wasn't winning anything with him and he wasn't staying.  You can lament the state of things without letting it color your ability to see the path forward.

The path forward for this team was to move on, acquire assets, and rework the roster.  We might be able to flip Marten for a pitcher.  Maybe Woods-Richardson will step right in.  Same with some of the other arms we added.  We weren't going to progress being stagnant.  Take big swings. 

Some of you would've been on a Padres board 5 years ago singing the ballads of James Shields and the worthlessness of prospects like Tatis.  (Best case scenario of course, but you can't hit roster homeruns without taking swings) It's ok to feel crappy about the state of things, but some sense of reality would be nice.

[Twinsoholic]

La Z Boy noted above about “getting Big Mike locked up” in a new contract. The other day I read that Pineda hoped he would not be trade—said he liked pitching as a Twins player. I wonder if his agent and Falvine have an understanding about a new contract for him. That could explain why he was not traded. Of course, other reasons could be he is hurt or teams were trying to low-ball the Twins. I am glad Mike is still on the Twins. I like players, particularly starting pitchers, who want to stay on the team. 

[Vanimal46]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

That's different than the last four months....how?  I guess we can just stay with a bad team and just hope that we magically become not bad?

I don't understand this mentality.  The disappointment is already a reality, no reason to double down out of obstinance.

Berrios was the only positive on the pitching staff this year. He wasn’t contributing to the suck of 2021. Now the pitching staff is in shambles even more. Oh boy. 

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, dbminn said:

OTOH, Saints tickets will be tougher to find the rest of this season and most of 2022.

This must be Christmas morning for prospect lovers. I watch the MLB team only, so I might as well check out the rest of 2021 and 2022. 

[chpettit19]

37 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Berrios was the only positive on the pitching staff this year. He wasn’t contributing to the suck of 2021. Now the pitching staff is in shambles even more. Oh boy. 

 

36 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

This must be Christmas morning for prospect lovers. I watch the MLB team only, so I might as well check out the rest of 2021 and 2022. 

This season doesn't matter anymore. Hasn't for weeks, if not months. Do we agree on that? The focus is 2022 and beyond, right? As for 2022, do you think the Twins have a better chance of competing in 2022 with basically the whole offense coming back (minus Cruz, which is obviously a big loss), Maeda, Rogers, Duffey, 50M(ish) to spend, and SWR, Martin, Ryan, and Strotman, or the whole offense (still without Cruz), Berrios, Maeda, Rogers Duffey, 40M(ish) to spend and no SWR, Martin, Ryan, or Strotman? What do you think the odds of competing in 2022 looked like in those 2 scenarios? By competing I simply mean winning the division (let's walk before we run to the WS). 

Yes, if you only care about the MLB team you should absolutely check out for the rest of 2021. It's not going to get better. Did you want them to trade prospects the last couple weeks in an attempt to get better for 2021 or just keep the same bad team in place? What were your goals for the rest of 2021?

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 minute ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I made an honest reply to you.

This next reply of yours is unserious.

The deadline is past. The roster going into 2022 is the essentially the same roster of 2019 and 2020, but with worse pitching.

 

Ummm, the 2022 Twins going deep into the playoffs is not a serious response.  It seems ridiculous to say the roster is the same, except the pitching's worse.  That's like saying (had he not come back) that the Packers roster is the same, but the quarterbacking is worse.  There is no straightforward path to improve the pitching sufficiently in 2022 to seriously compete for a World Series.  Alternatively, if Falvine is able to work their magic, and turn Duran, Balazovic, Ryan, Winder, Strotman, etc. into quality big league options, than Berrios is hardly a must, and trading him for additional players and $10M to $12M to put towards another starter is a win.

[wyowib]

29 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

This must be Christmas morning for prospect lovers. I watch the MLB team only, so I might as well check out the rest of 2021 and 2022. 

It's not about being "prospect lovers", it's about understanding how recently successful (WS winning) baseball teams are being constructed in today's world.  In 2012 the Cubs, Astros, Twins were talked about in the same breath because they were the worst teams, 2 of those teams took a path that led them to WS champions, the other took a stubborn  "we can compete every year approach regardless of reality" and here we are today; watching the Padres, White Sox reap the benefits of following an intelligent plan and the middle-of-rebuilding Tigers lead this team by 6 games 2/3 the way through the season.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

5 hours ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Acquiring prospects does nothing for me. They'll either be awful and we'll keep them too long or they'll be good and we'll trade them for more prospects. At no point will this formula amount to winning unless you keep your good players

The Rays seem to be pretty good at making the playoffs while keeping young unknown players on a low payroll. I believe Falvine is striving for this model and this trade deadline is kick starting it.

[wyowib]

6 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

The Rays seem to be pretty good at making the playoffs while keeping young unknown players on a low payroll. I believe Falvine is striving for this model and this trade deadline is kick starting it.

It's about time this team attempts to "kick start" an actual winning culture

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

Berrios was the only positive on the pitching staff this year. He wasn’t contributing to the suck of 2021. Now the pitching staff is in shambles even more. Oh boy. 

Yet....the suck has happened.  And will continue to happen.  If you're somehow squeezing joy out of this god awful season I have confidence you'll continue to find it if you're so determined.

Doing nothing was going to continue to result in one good pitcher and a bad baseball team.  You seem to grasp this notion, what I cant' grasp is why you would like it to endure.

[In My La Z boy]

2 hours ago, se7799 said:

Not to single you out, but....teams don not win a world serious, just based on prospects.  I'd rather have LA Makina

I think we can all agree we'd rather have Berrios on this team forever. That isn't remotely the point, that isn't possible, and Jose wasn't taking us to the World Series this year. Business of baseball is important. You and I don't have to like it. I am sad about losing him, but not taking this deal would have been front office malpractice of the highest order.