Contenders or pretenders

[Scot67]

The twins are about to sell off parts of the team due to a terrible 2021 first half of the season.

But are the twins contenders and are a year off from contending or are they just pretending and have more work to do 

Let's go position by position and find out.

Catcher-garver 67 rbi in 2019 hurt in 2020, behind him nothing, catcher still a work in progress....

First base-sano stats in 19 79 rbi 20 down in production this year down further where Alex kirloff is now taking time at 1st and doing rather well, 1st base incomplete.

2nd base and shortstop- Polanco has played both this year bringing in Simmons and last year playing Luis Arreaz  there as well decent production  but is it enough, I will say ok but the change is not enough for this year.

3RD base- simple stay healthy position fine, but if not you need to start over, keep Donaldson healthy position fine.

Outfield- injuries, under performing and perhaps a miss on the front offices part, Rosario yes flakey and sometimes undisciplined but a true sparkplug who many times re energized the team, outfield needs Buxton and a reboot from Kepler and larnach playing everyday.

Pitching- goes without saying it needs help!!! And Wes Johnson is not the answer he was a 1 year answer.

So this tells me a reboot is needed and 2022 is not going to be the year we are back, until the pitching is repaired and the positions are better settled we are not ready to compete till 23-24

Thoughts???

 

 

 

 

[Number3]

After the Detroit series just completed and in particular being shut out twice, they are obviously neither contenders or even pretenders. They are "contenters" as in being content to simply run the season out. The season is now totally in the hands of the non playing employees.

[Cap'n Piranha]

On paper, if you bring back everyone who have control over, and make no additions, the 2022 Twins lineup is pretty decent.

C--Garver/Jeffers/Rortvedt

1B--Kiriloff/Sano

2B--Polanco/Arraez

SS--Polanco/Gordon/Lewis

3B--Donaldson/Sano/Miranda

LF--Larnach/Arraez

CF--Buxton/Kepler

RF--Kepler/Kiriloff

DH--Rooker

 

That's 15 guys that we can all say should not really be in the minors (with a roster of 13 position players, only 2 need be injured concurrently for all of those guys to be up), with the exception of Miranda and Lewis, who can be brought up when injuries inevitably strike.  Ideally the defense at short would be better, but other than that, the roster would have a ton of flexibility, players could be cycled through the DH slot for "half-days", there's some room to platoon based on the opponent's starter, and the bench should be reasonably robust.

 

From a pitching standpoint, it looks a little different.

SP1--Berrios

SP2--Maeda

SP3--Ober

SP4--Barnes

SP5--Duran/Winder/Balazovic/Dobnak

RP1--Rogers

RP2--Duffey

RP3--Alcala

RP4--Theilbar

RP5--Stashak

RP6--Farrell

RP7--Law

RP8--Coulombe

 

That's a not particularly good rotation, with completely unproven depth, and a pretty poor bullpen, with essentially no depth.  If the Twins do indeed have $40M to spend this offseason, and do indeed spend it, and argue that even that won't be enough to make the team competitive (on paper) on Opening Day, from a pitching standpoint.  Getting two arms to bring the rotation to playoff-caliber probably requires the totality of that $40M, leaving nothing for bullpen upgrades.  Alternatively, the Twins could spend $20M on one starter, and then $10M each on two relievers, and that might be intriguing, but it would still necessitate two out of our 6 young starters being in the rotation, while leaving the back of our bullpen thin.  If injuries/decline reared their head, the bullpen could fall apart quickly.

It's this reality that leads me to the conclusion that the Twins should trade anyone who is not guaranteed to be here in 2023, and attempt to open a new window in 2023/2024.  If they try to compete next year, and wind up 85-77 and missing the playoffs by 7 games, they're probably looking at the next window not opening until 2025 or 2026 at the earliest.

[Brock Beauchamp]

@Cap'n Piranha That's why I believe it's in the Twins best interests to try to move Donaldson, whether they plan to compete in 2022 or not. If they're not planning to compete, there's no reason to keep Donaldson. If they're planning to compete, the money paid to Donaldson, even if they can only get back part of it, would be better used on pitching than an already-competitive lineup.

[gunnarthor]

The captain is right. We should be a stolid offense next year and could be a top 5 offense.

Pitching sucks. They have to sign some good FA pitchers because the pipeline is not cutting it. Guasman, Rodon, and take a flyer on Bundy.

[TwinsDr2021]

2 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

It's this reality that leads me to the conclusion that the Twins should trade anyone who is not guaranteed to be here in 2023, and attempt to open a new window in 2023/2024.  If they try to compete next year, and wind up 85-77 and missing the playoffs by 7 games, they're probably looking at the next window not opening until 2025 or 2026 at the earliest.

Not to be negative, but does trading those not guaranteed to be here in 2023, guarantee a new window of 23/24?

What happens if Barnes/Duran/Winder/Balazovic/Dobnak/Ober all end up being bullpen arms (the odds say that most if not all will)? Then they will still be looking at 25/26 and the FO will be looking for new jobs.

The FO put this themselves in this position by not fully going for it the last few years, selling a rebuild to the fans would have been WAY easier if they would have traded some of top prospects in a real attempt to win the last few years, but they didn't because they were going to be the next wave of players that kept the winning going, and now giving up on those same prospects seems inexcusable.

I say screw trading Buxton, Berrios, Rogers and Donaldson. I say package up Cruz and Miranda or Rooker if a team gives you a fireballing relief pitcher that can help next year. Trade larnach and Lewis to the Marlins for Sandy Alcantara or something similiar to another team (cubs seem to be talking about a sell off maybe pry Kyle Hendricks away from them with prospects. Sign Rondon, and a couple of relief pitchers. 

If it doesn't work, sell off next trade deadline, they would have a crap ton to trade, and at least they can say to the fans we went for it.

 

[Vanimal46]

We’re very obvious pretenders this year, but with some re-tooling, 2022 might not be so doom and gloom. Lots of decisions to be made this winter… Topping the list of course is,

- Extend or trade Buxton and Berrios. Both are keys to having a reasonable shot at contention. 

- Choose one at 2B, Polanco or Arraez. Trade the other away for pitching. 

- Find a taker for Sano, even if it means eating 50% of the remaining salary. 

- Trade any of the 150,000 bat first corner OF/1B in the system for immediate MLB help. 

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Not to be negative, but does trading those not guaranteed to be here in 2023, guarantee a new window of 23/24?

What happens if Barnes/Duran/Winder/Balazovic/Dobnak/Ober all end up being bullpen arms (the odds say that most if not all will)? Then they will still be looking at 25/26 and the FO will be looking for new jobs.

The FO put this themselves in this position by not fully going for it the last few years, selling a rebuild to the fans would have been WAY easier if they would have traded some of top prospects in a real attempt to win the last few years, but they didn't because they were going to be the next wave of players that kept the winning going, and now giving up on those same prospects seems inexcusable.

I say screw trading Buxton, Berrios, Rogers and Donaldson. I say package up Cruz and Miranda or Rooker if a team gives you a fireballing relief pitcher that can help next year. Trade larnach and Lewis to the Marlins for Sandy Alcantara or something similiar to another team (cubs seem to be talking about a sell off maybe pry Kyle Hendricks away from them with prospects. Sign Rondon, and a couple of relief pitchers. 

If it doesn't work, sell off next trade deadline, they would have a crap ton to trade, and at least they can say to the fans we went for it.

 

Not every fan would take those moves and be good with them under the storyline of "we went for it." I wouldn't be good with that. Not because I'm against trading prospects, or trading from the offense to improve the pitching, but because I don't think those moves get them that much closer to a WS next year and put them in an even worse position moving forward. In your suggestion it sounds like you're basically saying go all out for 2022, if it doesn't work blow it up and start a total rebuild (that's what I get from the "would have a crap ton to trade" part). I have no desire to see another 5 years of 100 loss baseball. That would be far more upsetting to me than trading any, or all, of the Buxton/Rogers/Berrios trio.

Trading anyone who doesn't have a contract beyond 2022 doesn't guarantee a new window in 23/24, but trading a current MLB 3 hole hitter with 6 years of control, a top 25 global prospect, and an MLB ready prospect doesn't guarantee a competitive team in 2022. There are no guarantees. It's all about calculated risks and balancing the present with the future. There's too many other variables (who's playing SS? LF? filling out the pen? etc.) for me to really speak on your proposal, but it feels far more like a Pit trading for Archer situation than something that pushes the Twins from 100 loses to WS contender.

[TheLeviathan]

We could absolutely contend next year!  Best way to do that?

Not pretend this year matters beyond prep for next year.  Sell the parts that won't be here.  Sell Donaldson so we have room to add to what we have.  Sell Berrios because he has no intention of returning.  

Play the kids.  Let them experience and adjust to big league ball.

[Cap'n Piranha]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Not to be negative, but does trading those not guaranteed to be here in 2023, guarantee a new window of 23/24?

What happens if Barnes/Duran/Winder/Balazovic/Dobnak/Ober all end up being bullpen arms (the odds say that most if not all will)? Then they will still be looking at 25/26 and the FO will be looking for new jobs.

The FO put this themselves in this position by not fully going for it the last few years, selling a rebuild to the fans would have been WAY easier if they would have traded some of top prospects in a real attempt to win the last few years, but they didn't because they were going to be the next wave of players that kept the winning going, and now giving up on those same prospects seems inexcusable.

I say screw trading Buxton, Berrios, Rogers and Donaldson. I say package up Cruz and Miranda or Rooker if a team gives you a fireballing relief pitcher that can help next year. Trade larnach and Lewis to the Marlins for Sandy Alcantara or something similiar to another team (cubs seem to be talking about a sell off maybe pry Kyle Hendricks away from them with prospects. Sign Rondon, and a couple of relief pitchers. 

If it doesn't work, sell off next trade deadline, they would have a crap ton to trade, and at least they can say to the fans we went for it.

 

No, it does not guarantee a window in 2023/2024, but it makes it much more likely.  If you start 2023 with Larnach, Kiriloff, Polanco, Garver, Arraez, Lewis, and Miranda in your lineup, along with Duran, Winder, Balazovic, Canterino, Ober, and Barnes as pitchers, but then add another 3-5 Top 100 prospects to that, along with a high draft pick in the 2022 draft, you could have 6-8 Top 100 guys.  Add in potentially a ton of cash to spend (if the Twins buy out Sano--likely--and eat half of Donaldson's salary in a trade, they only have $33.4M in commitments.  If the players listed above are finding success, you could do Polanco/Kepler style contracts on them, and still have $50M to $60M to spend.  If the players listed above are failing, nothing the Twins do for 2022 will fix that.  The point of giving up on contention in 2022 right now is to accelerate the rebuild that is probably coming in 2023 if you don't.  Do it right, and you can shave 1-2 years off of that.

[Dman]

If they can't extend Berrios and Buxton then they might as well play for 2023.  Putting all their chips in by keeping Berrios and Buxton one more year seems pointless.  I think 2022 is a pipe dream as they need too much pitching. If they make trades while in a strong position they have a chance to rebound once they get their young pitching established likely in 2023 or 2024.  Heck they might get pitchers in trade that can help accelerate that transition.

It just feels like there are too many holes on the pitching side to contend next year and if they lose Berrios and Buxton for draft picks that just means the timing might be off for their present wave two of prospects.  

If they can extend Buxton and Berrios then fine they are good players that they should have long enough to play with the second wave.  Go for it in 2022 and beyond..  Get your lotto tickets for this years rentals and try to build up the young pitching in 2022 and hopefully there is enough there to take us somewhere in 2023 or 2024.

 

[tony&rodney]

Right now, the Twins are among the bottom 3-6 teams in baseball. There is a real dearth of good baseball being played by our team right now.  

I don't know what the problem is with this team but they cannot hit right now which makes any victories tough to come by at the moment. 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

13 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

No, it does not guarantee a window in 2023/2024, but it makes it much more likely.  If you start 2023 with Larnach, Kiriloff, Polanco, Garver, Arraez, Lewis, and Miranda in your lineup, along with Duran, Winder, Balazovic, Canterino, Ober, and Barnes as pitchers, but then add another 3-5 Top 100 prospects to that, along with a high draft pick in the 2022 draft, you could have 6-8 Top 100 guys.  Add in potentially a ton of cash to spend (if the Twins buy out Sano--likely--and eat half of Donaldson's salary in a trade, they only have $33.4M in commitments.  If the players listed above are finding success, you could do Polanco/Kepler style contracts on them, and still have $50M to $60M to spend.  If the players listed above are failing, nothing the Twins do for 2022 will fix that.  The point of giving up on contention in 2022 right now is to accelerate the rebuild that is probably coming in 2023 if you don't.  Do it right, and you can shave 1-2 years off of that.

IMO doing what you are saying is the FO is admitting that everything they have done to this point was a failure. Signing Donaldson (paying a guy, then eating money because all the other moves they made didn't work), Not being able to extend Buxton or Berrios, trading Graterol, not trading Romero, Gonsalves and multiple other prospects that haven't helped this team. Even drafting in Lewis in 2017, since he also will not have helped the team for 7 possibly 8 years.

Garver will be 32 and a UFA in 24 why not trade him now as well?

Larnach, Kiriloff, Polanco, Garver, Arraez, Lewis, and Miranda in your lineup, along with Duran, Winder, Balazovic, Canterino, Ober, and Barnes

What if any of these hitters slump in 2022 or take a few years to develop, does that push 23 to 24 or beyond? The odds that any of the pitchers you listed turn out to be solid rotation guys is low and you are talking about a team relying on them.

I am not saying that the twins shouldn't be tearing down and starting over, what I am saying is this front office shouldn't be the ones doing that, if it has came to that point they should be GONE. They were given quite a bit of talent and prospects and they would have basically screwed that up.

 

 

 

 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

14 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Not every fan would take those moves and be good with them under the storyline of "we went for it." I wouldn't be good with that. Not because I'm against trading prospects, or trading from the offense to improve the pitching, but because I don't think those moves get them that much closer to a WS next year and put them in an even worse position moving forward. In your suggestion it sounds like you're basically saying go all out for 2022, if it doesn't work blow it up and start a total rebuild (that's what I get from the "would have a crap ton to trade" part). I have no desire to see another 5 years of 100 loss baseball. That would be far more upsetting to me than trading any, or all, of the Buxton/Rogers/Berrios trio.

but trading a current MLB 3 hole hitter with 6 years of control, a top 25 global prospect, and an MLB ready prospect doesn't guarantee a competitive team in 2022.

 

You are 100% correct not ever fan would like those moves. But every fan was basically told the last 3 division championships that they were not going to throw away their future by trading prospects for short term game because this was going to be a sustainable winning team, and within 3 years the talk is about a rebuild with all the prospects in the minors?

You are suggesting that Laranch, the guy with an OPS of .716 and K'ing at a rate 37.7% is un-tradeable for really good young controllable pitcher? I really, really like him but the odds say he is going to be closer to Kepler and Rosario then All-star outfielder. Also are we still pretending that Lewis is a top 25 prospect? Going into this year only 1 of the major three (MLB, Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus) had him in the top 25 and going into next year he will continue to drop as he gets older and will have to prove it after coming off the injury. Again not trying to be negative with Lewis but he will be 23 (next June) coming off a major injury, so the assumption will be maybe he sees the majors at the end of the 2022, hopefully is solid in 2023, but no real expectation of him being better than average before 2024, and Miranda prior to this year really hadn't shown he was a major league regular in the minors and I not ready to say the 300 at bats this year are going to make me forget about the 1400 others in the minors. 

I will say this I completely understand and respect your opinion.

I and others were saying something similiar about trading Romero, Gonsalves, Gordon, Jay, Stewart, Javier and a few others a few years ago to help the team out, and people said that can't be done they are the future, how did that work out?

[jorgenswest]

I think they were all in last year. At least as all in a a mid to small market team can be,

They pushed the troll to new heights by signing Donaldson. They traded one of their best prospects for immediate starting pitching help in Maeda. Instead of going with the cheaper Dobnak, Thorpe and Smeltzer they signed the most certain floors in Pineda, Hill and Bailey.

This year is a failure but the tenure has been a success. They won the division the last two seasons and pushed for one more with the signings of several veterans. Now they have an old pitching staff. Unfortunately those veteran free agent signings haven’t performed near their level of previous performance.

It was a quick but fun ride. 2019 was a blast. They key young players of 2017 are becoming free agents by 2023. Their pitching under control for 2023 may be the worst in the AL and certainly the central. I would close this window and start building a new one.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

You are 100% correct not ever fan would like those moves. But every fan was basically told the last 3 division championships that they were not going to throw away their future by trading prospects for short term game because this was going to be a sustainable winning team, and within 3 years the talk is about a rebuild with all the prospects in the minors?

You are suggesting that Laranch, the guy with an OPS of .716 and K'ing at a rate 37.7% is un-tradeable for really good young controllable pitcher? I really, really like him but the odds say he is going to be closer to Kepler and Rosario then All-star outfielder. Also are we still pretending that Lewis is a top 25 prospect? Going into this year only 1 of the major three (MLB, Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus) had him in the top 25 and going into next year he will continue to drop as he gets older and will have to prove it after coming off the injury. Again not trying to be negative with Lewis but he will be 23 (next June) coming off a major injury, so the assumption will be maybe he sees the majors at the end of the 2022, hopefully is solid in 2023, but no real expectation of him being better than average before 2024, and Miranda prior to this year really hadn't shown he was a major league regular in the minors and I not ready to say the 300 at bats this year are going to make me forget about the 1400 others in the minors. 

I will say this I completely understand and respect your opinion.

I and others were saying something similiar about trading Romero, Gonsalves, Gordon, Jay, Stewart, Javier and a few others a few years ago to help the team out, and people said that can't be done they are the future, how did that work out?

I'm not saying anyone is untradeable. I'd trade Mike Trout if the return made my organization better. Jorgenswest did quite a good job of laying out my view on things. The FO hasn't just sat around calling up prospects and crossing their fingers. They've filled in with veterans on short term deals to bridge to their prospects. They kept Kirilloff at the alternate site longer than they had to because they were listening to you and "going for it" with the veterans last year. Until injuries crushed them late. They traded one of their top prospects for a veteran starter. They spent big on a former MVP to give the offense a boost. They signed experienced veteran pitchers with playoff experience to carry the pitching staff. And they got a top 5 staff out of it. Then they lost in the playoffs anyways. Small sample size and I don't care about it (obviously want them to win in the playoffs, but, beyond being embarrassing, the playoff streak isn't meaningful to me).

They should always make smart moves that improve their present while keeping an eye on the future to avoid extended years of seasons like this. I think they've done well at that. This year was a disaster. It doesn't outweigh the previous 4 where they improved the team ERA every year, including top 10 staffs the last 2 years, set HR records, and won division titles twice. Holding onto Berrios, Buxton, and/or Rogers and trading young MLers and/or MLB ready prospects for a 1 year shot doesn't make sense to me. If a team makes a really good offer for any of those they should absolutely listen and pull the trigger if it improves the organization. They should also have a plan on how to replace them for next season. Maybe that includes a piece coming back in the trade, maybe it's a list of realistic FA signings. They've made additions to the pitching staff each year and I don't know why they couldn't do it again next year, even without Berrios and/or Rogers. 

To me it's more about your definition of "going for it." Some fans (sounds like you fit in this category) would be happy with them going all out for 1 year even though the odds are far greater they still don't win and then get years of 100 loss baseball (Pirates style). Some fans (I'm in this category) want them to build through the minors while not being afraid to trade prospects in smart deals, but never raise the risk level of multiple 100 loss seasons to an extreme level (Rays style). Some fans can just never be convinced the team "went for it" if they didn't succeed. The Twins went for it last year with some risky moves (Donaldson signing, Maeda trade), but didn't mortgage the future. I far prefer measured risk like that as winning a World Series isn't about "winning the offseason" or having the best team on paper. Just ask the Dodgers. And the Padres (they "go for it" every couple years and still haven't been close). You mention odds and guarantees in a few posts, but only that the odds aren't great for prospects (they aren't, but they change when you're talking about the top prospects) and trading our "big 3" doesn't guarantee a new window in 23/24. But you ignore that keeping them doesn't guarantee anything in 22 or that the odds of winning the World Series in any given year (not even taking into account it being a season after losing 100 games) are brutal as well. The odds are never in your favor in baseball. That's why I'll take the balanced, moderate risk approach to the "all in for 1 year" approach every time. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

4 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

IMO doing what you are saying is the FO is admitting that everything they have done to this point was a failure. Signing Donaldson (paying a guy, then eating money because all the other moves they made didn't work), Not being able to extend Buxton or Berrios, trading Graterol, not trading Romero, Gonsalves and multiple other prospects that haven't helped this team. Even drafting in Lewis in 2017, since he also will not have helped the team for 7 possibly 8 years.

Garver will be 32 and a UFA in 24 why not trade him now as well?

Larnach, Kiriloff, Polanco, Garver, Arraez, Lewis, and Miranda in your lineup, along with Duran, Winder, Balazovic, Canterino, Ober, and Barnes

What if any of these hitters slump in 2022 or take a few years to develop, does that push 23 to 24 or beyond? The odds that any of the pitchers you listed turn out to be solid rotation guys is low and you are talking about a team relying on them.

I am not saying that the twins shouldn't be tearing down and starting over, what I am saying is this front office shouldn't be the ones doing that, if it has came to that point they should be GONE. They were given quite a bit of talent and prospects and they would have basically screwed that up.

I would hardly say being realistic that a pitching staff which aged faster than expected, while simultaneously losing an entire year of development on key pitching prospects makes what Falvine has done a failure.  They signed Donaldson to push a 103 win team over the top, and then got COVID instead.  Before this year there was no glaring reason to sign Buxton to an extension, and with Berrios...you can't sign a guy to an extension if he doesn't want to sign a reasonable one.  They traded Graterol for the 2nd best pitcher in the league last year, who has definitely struggled this year, but whom they still control for 2 more years.  Did they overvalue Romero and Gonsalves by keeping them around?  Maybe; perhaps they tried to trade them, but other teams were lukewarm on them as well.  But even if they didn't want to trade them, the Twins will always need a steady stream of players from the minors to compete, and the only way to guarantee that is to keep more than you need, and see which ones work.  No front office is ever going to be 100% at figuring out which players will translate in the bigs--even seeming sure things can fall apart.  As for Lewis, 7 or 8 years means he wouldn't be here until 2024/2025--that is a preposterous timeline (also worth noting he's now lost 2 entire years to injury/cancellation--hard to hold either of those against him or the front office).

I actually do think the Twins should trade Garver if they get an offer, as he and Jeffers seem to be pretty redundant.  My inclusion of him on that list was if the Twins wanted to keep an older guy around for team leadership purposes.

I specifically stated that if the players I listed didn't work out, the Twins are sunk, both in 2023 AND 2022.  If none of those players are going to be first division regulars, the Twins won't be able to obtain enough talent on the FA market to compete next year anyways, so why get nothing in return for Buxton/Berrios/Rogers in order to finish 85-77?  Better to finish 70-92 with all the young guys in 2022, get some high-level prospects, and see what you truly have.

Between Duran/Balazovic/Winder/Canterino, there's a decent chance the Twins get a pitcher approximately as good as Berrios, and a decent chance they get another 1-2 guys who can be a serviceable 4 or 5 for a few years.  As I also mentioned, the Twins should have $80M-$100M in payroll space by 2023 (barring early extensions for pre-arb guys), so the idea that I think they are relying on prospect pitchers is not grounded in reality.

Finally, I wouldn't be terribly upset if Falvine were shown the door after this year as we head into a rebuild, but nor do I think they should be.  They inherited a team that had just lost 100 games, and within 4 years, had it playing at 101 win pace for almost a season and a half.  This year has surely been a disappointment, and the moves have not worked out, but Falvine has shown enough to get the chance to right the ship they built.

[Dodecahedron]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Some fans (I'm in this category) want them to build through the minors while not being afraid to trade prospects in smart deals, but never raise the risk level of multiple 100 loss seasons to an extreme level (Rays style). 

I don't think anyone wants multiple 100 loss seasons or to bring that risk to the table, much less multiple ones.  I would offer that when the Twins have been terrible, it's been because they are leaning on young guys with too much emphasis on "building through the minors."

Let's look at how the Rays 2021 roster was constructed:

Hitters:  4 drafted, 4 amateur free agents, 11 free agents, 1 rule 5, 17 trades
Pitchers:  3 drafted, 1 amateur free agent, 9 free agents, 1 rule 5, 13 trades

And now the Twins:

Hitters:  13 drafted, 4 amateur free agents, 10 free agents, 4 trades, 1 waivers
Pitchers:  7 drafted, 1 amateur free agent, 12 free agents, 4 trades, 2 waivers

Look at the differences.  The Twins and Rays are not following the same methods.  The Rays are not using home-grown talent, they are making smart trades.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Dodecahedron said:

I don't think anyone wants multiple 100 loss seasons or to bring that risk to the table, much less multiple ones.  I would offer that when the Twins have been terrible, it's been because they are leaning on young guys with too much emphasis on "building through the minors."

Let's look at how the Rays 2021 roster was constructed:

Hitters:  4 drafted, 4 amateur free agents, 11 free agents, 1 rule 5, 17 trades
Pitchers:  3 drafted, 1 amateur free agent, 9 free agents, 1 rule 5, 13 trades

And now the Twins:

Hitters:  13 drafted, 4 amateur free agents, 10 free agents, 4 trades, 1 waivers
Pitchers:  7 drafted, 1 amateur free agent, 12 free agents, 4 trades, 2 waivers

Look at the differences.  The Twins and Rays are not following the same methods.  The Rays are not using home-grown talent, they are making smart trades.

Trades for what? Proven MLB talent by giving up their own prospects? Or trades for their MLB talent that brought in prospects?

I've never once said I want the Twins to build through draft and develop alone. I've said I want them to make smart trades that improve the present while keeping an eye to the future and have the core of their talent be promoted from the minors to ensure they have a steady flow of affordable talent that can be supplemented with veteran additions. That's exactly what the Rays do. Arozarena was aquired via trade. As a prospect. Meadows was aquired via trade. As a prospect. Glasnow was aquired via trade. As a prospect. The Rays literally just traded their best pitcher to bring in younger, more controllable pitchers after a run to the World Series because it improved their organization. Now I'm suggesting the Twins trade their best pitcher during a 100 loss season to improve their organization. I don't get what you're suggesting with this at all.

[TwinsDr2021]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

The Twins went for it last year with some risky moves (Donaldson signing, Maeda trade), but didn't mortgage the future.

I am not sure how what I mentioned mortgages the future or in anyway says go for it for one year. I said sign Rodon, trade for younger starter with some years left of control, try to get a young fireballer to put in the pen, keep Berrios and Buxton next year to make a run, and if injuries happen or the young guys you want on the team fail (as do I, but if they fail there will be no rebuilding for many years), you can trade the free agents to be, you would have what you want in young guys replenishing and still get prospects for them. If trading larnach, Lewis and Miranda ruins the future, it says allot about the evaluations of the Twins system.

and to most novice or casual fans, the Twins in no way went for it in their 3 division championships, who did they trade for at the deadline last year? Certainly not and of these Mike Clevinger,Caleb Smith,  Mike Minor,Robbie Ray,Jonathan Villar or others.

Who did they trade for the other two?

But reality we are just talking over each other, so I will say good bye to this conversation.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I am not sure how what I mentioned mortgages the future or in anyway says go for it for one year. I said sign Rodon, trade for younger starter with some years left of control, try to get a young fireballer to put in the pen, keep Berrios and Buxton next year to make a run, and if injuries happen or the young guys you want on the team fail (as do I, but if they fail there will be no rebuilding for many years), you can trade the free agents to be, you would have what you want in young guys replenishing and still get prospects for them. If trading larnach, Lewis and Miranda ruins the future, it says allot about the evaluations of the Twins system.

and to most novice or casual fans, the Twins in no way went for it in their 3 division championships, who did they trade for at the deadline last year? Certainly not and of these Mike Clevinger,Caleb Smith,  Mike Minor,Robbie Ray,Jonathan Villar or others.

Who did they trade for the other two?

But reality we are just talking over each other, so I will say good bye to this conversation.

Which of those players won a World Series last year for those teams who "went for it?"

We clearly have a difference of opinion on what "going for it" means. To each their own. Have a wonderful day and hopefully we can both enjoy some Twins Ws this year with far more in future seasons.