Front Office Facing Pitching Problems

[nicksaviking]

Yeah, the pitching was the biggest issue when Falvey was hired. To his credit, he did right the ship for awhile there, but those were all stop-gap kind of moves. Trading for or signing two to three free agent starters a year is and always should be a band aid approach until you have developed your own pitchers to fill out most of the rotation.

If folks want to blame last year's lost season on some of this, that's fine, but somehow no new homegrown useable talent has found it's way into the rotation in the five years since the new front office took over? That's the opposite of what they were hired to do, and frankly that would have sounded crazy to all of us five years ago. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just to be clear......if Winder and/or others come up and show something....that's great. I've said all along this is the year that I will start judging their development practices. But if they haven't done anything by the end of year 5....ugh. 

So, ya, still early to say one way or the other, but so far, not good.

[nicksaviking]

Just taking a look at things, I'm softening my criticism, but just slightly. The bat-heavy drafting has been criticized, but looking at the drafts since 2017, it looks like Griffin Canning was the only real usable rotation piece they actually had a chance at drafting, and he's pitched like maybe a #4. That's not to say other pitchers won't pan out, just that it's unlikely any would be helping the team right now.

Also, it looked like they inherited a windfall of pitching prospect talent in Romero, Gonsalves, Graterol and Stewart. They unpopularly, but in the end wisely, pulled the plug on three of those guys early. 

Still, other clubs have found a way to build a sustainable and young rotation in that time, and that's exactly what they were hired to do.

[Mark G]

17 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Odorizzi was a solid acquisition in 2018 (and is starting to pay off for the Astros now too, maybe we should have kept him?). Pineda had been good when he was on the field until recently, and Hill was all right in 2020 too.

Odorizzi gave us one solid year out of 3, and Pineda a few good months at  time out of 4.  I really can't say how Hill would have done over 162 games; 60 wasn't much of a sample.  I guess that is what I meant by bombed.  I always hope for much more than what I just describe when we shell out the kind of money we have for this type of free agent.  If they are going to take credit for the success, they have to take the heat for the lack of it as well.  But I always appreciate another perspective. 

[Thebigalguy]

It's a disappointing season. To say the least. Almost everything that could go wrong after the first seven games did go wrong. Biggest disappointment is Sano. After that, the pitchers you name above. We still don't know if Buxton can stay healthy. Berrios is a free agent in a year. Kepler regressed. I haven't bothered to watch a game in weeks. How much the pandemic year has to do with all this is uncertain, but every team is in the same boat. For Falvey, the big question is whether to build next year's team hoping to compete or blow it up with 2023 in mind as the next competitive window.

[Linus]

I wish they would have faced their pitching problems last winter. Doesn’t matter now. 

[beckmt]

I understand the problem. You don't want to hand out 2 - 3 year contracts if the kids are going to be here next year.  So you tread water and hope it works (it did not).   The cupboard was bare when they were hired (or almost  so), so a 5 year window is about right.  They lost last year, so next year is 5 and  we should start seeing pitchers arrive and some will make it and some will not.  After next year we will know.

We don't know if either Buxton or Berrios will sign a long term deal.  If neither will, we will have to trade them, as the return of 0 or little will really put this franchise back.  Still need to get the hardest thing to get, which is more possible front line pitching .  

End of next year of 2023 we will know if this FO is a success or you next to find the next FO to fix the problem

[twinstalker]

They've made some horrible mistakes.  Anderson, Gil, and Ynoa are three they just threw away as if they had no value, and there are others who haven't yet climbed to the point where we know.  Ugly.  Ober, Sands, and Winder appear to be their successes, outpitching expectations, but when you think of it, do they make up for guys they gave away?  Couldn't they have all of it?

[Mark G]

3 hours ago, beckmt said:

I understand the problem. You don't want to hand out 2 - 3 year contracts if the kids are going to be here next year.  So you tread water and hope it works (it did not).   The cupboard was bare when they were hired (or almost  so), so a 5 year window is about right.  They lost last year, so next year is 5 and  we should start seeing pitchers arrive and some will make it and some will not.  After next year we will know.

We don't know if either Buxton or Berrios will sign a long term deal.  If neither will, we will have to trade them, as the return of 0 or little will really put this franchise back.  Still need to get the hardest thing to get, which is more possible front line pitching .  

End of next year of 2023 we will know if this FO is a success or you next to find the next FO to fix the problem

Actually, I don't know how bare the cupboards were coming in.  The Twins total record in Molitor's last two years, and this FO's first two years was 163 and 161.  Anytime a team hangs around the .500 mark the cupboards can't be too bare.  They sold off all the goodies in the cupboards the first two years trying to get the prospects we are all looking at now, and used a healthy payroll increase from Pohlad to sign free agents who helped bring a 307 home run season; coupled with the fact we got 57 games with Detroit, KC, and Chicago before they decided to beef up, and we pulled off a 101 win season.  But we all knew the 307 home runs were going to dry up, and we were going to have to start bringing up all these prospects we built the farm around.  Well, based on where we are today, the time is now and I don't know what the future holds, but I have to say I am a little nervous when I look at today.  And I will continue to say you can't take credit for '19 and not take the heat for '21.

[ashbury]

Back in 2016 Falvey's promise was "a sustainable and championship-caliber team and organization that Twins fans across Twins Territory will be proud of".  I'm the little kid in the back seat of the car - are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?

We ain't there yet.  Lack of a discernible pitching pipeline and reliance on astute short-term signings isn't looking very sustainable right now.  The youngest guy on the pitching staff who is delivering positive value is Berrios (Ryan's guy, need I point out), and he isn't actually young anymore.

[beckmt]

3 hours ago, Mark G said:

Actually, I don't know how bare the cupboards were coming in.  The Twins total record in Molitor's last two years, and this FO's first two years was 163 and 161.  Anytime a team hangs around the .500 mark the cupboards can't be too bare.  They sold off all the goodies in the cupboards the first two years trying to get the prospects we are all looking at now, and used a healthy payroll increase from Pohlad to sign free agents who helped bring a 307 home run season; coupled with the fact we got 57 games with Detroit, KC, and Chicago before they decided to beef up, and we pulled off a 101 win season.  But we all knew the 307 home runs were going to dry up, and we were going to have to start bringing up all these prospects we built the farm around.  Well, based on where we are today, the time is now and I don't know what the future holds, but I have to say I am a little nervous when I look at today.  And I will continue to say you can't take credit for '19 and not take the heat for '21.

Outside of Rogers and Berrios, I do not believe there is a long term pitcher left from the Ryan era (I know about Jax, just do not think he is any more that a 5th starter, long man now).  All the next wave has come in the last 5 years most of it drafted in 2017, 2018.  With the current injuries we will see how it works out, but you can never have enough pitching.  

Next two years will tell,   if the pitching is still bad we will be looking at starting over.

[DocSavage]

Funny: what took them so Long.. I predicted this to be a down season.. figured they Might win 81. Why should anyone buy into the Hype. Look at the Line up. Much of the core was built by Mr. Bill Smith.. or Mr. Ryan and all they did was spend some of the Po'lad money to flesh it out. Show me their success at the one thing they were brought into do: PITCHING..  And i have a question: Could it be the Twins implemented the no sticky rule the MLB was going to enforce before season? is it possible that this is the cause for loss of velocity and effectiveness?

[RonCoomersOPS]

On 7/2/2021 at 7:10 PM, Mark G said:

Actually, I don't know how bare the cupboards were coming in.  The Twins total record in Molitor's last two years, and this FO's first two years was 163 and 161.  Anytime a team hangs around the .500 mark the cupboards can't be too bare.  They sold off all the goodies in the cupboards the first two years trying to get the prospects we are all looking at now, and used a healthy payroll increase from Pohlad to sign free agents who helped bring a 307 home run season; coupled with the fact we got 57 games with Detroit, KC, and Chicago before they decided to beef up, and we pulled off a 101 win season.  But we all knew the 307 home runs were going to dry up, and we were going to have to start bringing up all these prospects we built the farm around.  Well, based on where we are today, the time is now and I don't know what the future holds, but I have to say I am a little nervous when I look at today.  And I will continue to say you can't take credit for '19 and not take the heat for '21.

To say the cupboards were bare coming in is an insult to bare cupboards. We were relying on the likes of Kyle Gibson, Tommy Milone, and Ricky Nolasco three days out of five, and the best we had in the pipeline were now-noted MLB players JT Chargois, Adelberto Mejia, Alex Meyer, and Alex Wimmers. I think people forget how bleak the outlook really was when Falvey and Levine came in.

Sure, the guys we're all waiting on now might go the way of Wimmers, but it sure looks more likely than not that at least a couple of them will stick near the top of the next several years' rotations and you just couldn't reasonably think the same about what Falvey and Levine inherited.