Game Recap: White Sox 16, Twins 4

[garn from vancouver]

well from the west coast it all looks pretty bad. i put the game on at work and watched as happ loaded the bases in the first inning. by the time i got home it was 10-1. i went to the kitchen and it became 12-1. i believe in being a fan through the good times and bad but this is hard to watch. i turned the game off and resumed reading 3 days in august.

[Mike Sixel]

24 minutes ago, darwin22 said:

Ok, I didn't watch the game (who would?), but after watching replay---Mercedes at some point down the road------better "wear one"--below shoulder level------for his BUSHLEAGUE antics in 9th last night!  Up 15-4 with a 3-0 count----you don't swing you moron!  Moreover, you don't swing against a position player thats pitching.  With Rocco at the helm, I'm sure they'll be ZERO repercussion in the foreseeable future as retaliation is "too old school," but I got to think a fair number of vets on this team--if they have ANY competitive fire----will make sure Mercedes pays for that.  I got to believe LaRussa was not pleased with that swing either.  If he did indeed sanction it, he's an idiot.

That's stupid. Swing. These guys get paid based on stats they put up. 

[Unwinder]

The Twins are both bad and unlucky. I think they're bad, but I think you need bad luck to explain them being worst-team-in-baseball bad.

[Dodecahedron]

23 minutes ago, Unwinder said:

The Twins are both bad and unlucky. I think they're bad, but I think you need bad luck to explain them being worst-team-in-baseball bad.

Maybe.  I mean, one would hope so.

The bullpen has been really bad, and the Twins have burned through their depth at all positions already.  Somehow, we all missed the fact that this team has no depth when we were predicting the Twins were going to have a good year.

Yeah, the hitting has been unfortunately/unlucky, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make if they were hitting as expected.  They'd still be under .500, probably still by a lot.

[insagt1]

listening to many baseball guys this morning on various shows, most are astounded at what has happened to the Twins. On paper, a much better team. On the field, a total trainwreck. Was it true that 30 pitches were thrown before an out was recorded?

Refsnyder has been kicking around AAA for years., I have seen him play against the Red Wings a whole bunch of times and he always hurt us. Let him play. Why not? He did last night something very few Twins have done this year. He actually got a real hit and RBI with a runner on 2nd. What a concept!  Recall Gordon. Let him play.

Some took exception to a Sox hitter swinging for a HR in the 9th of a 15-4 game. I say, garbage. When you bring in a position player to pitch, you are raising the white flag and giving up. But the batter still has to bat and every PA affects his personal stats. If he wants to swing...so be it. No ones nose needs get out of joint. Different situation if a runner tries to steal under similar circumstances. The runner, unlike the batter, doesn't have to go, and in a 15-4 game, he doesn't need to steal a base.

Injuries continue to ravage the Twins. But the pitching has been less affected and they are collectively ....terrible.  I wonder when someone will finally snap...when maybe there will be some changes in how they are playing the game?

I think Cruz needs some rest. Except there isn't anyone to really sub in for him at the moment.

[insagt1]

Just now, Dodecahedron said:

Maybe.  I mean, one would hope so.

The bullpen has been really bad, and the Twins have burned through their depth at all positions already.  Somehow, we all missed the fact that this team has no depth when we were predicting the Twins were going to have a good year.

Yeah, the hitting has been unfortunately/unlucky, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make if they were hitting as expected.  They'd still be under .500, probably still by a lot.

If they are gauging their hitting success solely on how hard they hit the ball...they are sadly going to never improve.

[Dodecahedron]

25 minutes ago, insagt1 said:

If they are gauging their hitting success solely on how hard they hit the ball...they are sadly going to never improve.

Yeah.  One of the things I said before the season was that hitting was going to be catastrophic this year if the Twins did not change gears knowing that the MLB was deadening the ball.  I felt like I had egg on my face when they came out blazing that first week.  Now, not so much.  Maybe teams were using up the leftover balls from last year to start the season, maybe not, but what worked last year is not working this year since those first couple of weeks.  The ball is deadened, just as we were told it would be.

It's worth pointing out that the same hitting approach has not worked for the Yankees, either.  It's an easy guess as to which team adjusted better to the change.  We just have to look at bullpen stats for each team to know the rest of the story.  Their closer has not allowed an earned run in 15 games.  Our combined closers probably have an ERA close to 15 in the 9th inning.  Night and day.

[Unwinder]

13 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Maybe.  I mean, one would hope so.

The bullpen has been really bad, and the Twins have burned through their depth at all positions already.  Somehow, we all missed the fact that this team has no depth when we were predicting the Twins were going to have a good year.

Yeah, the hitting has been unfortunately/unlucky, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make if they were hitting as expected.  They'd still be under .500, probably still by a lot.

I guess I see it as unlucky that almost every player seems to have regressed at the same time, and almost every gamble we made on pitching has gone sour. So really, I guess the way I was using the word "luck" there was just another way of saying that everyone is bad.

[Unwinder]

16 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Yeah.  One of the things I said before the season was that hitting was going to be catastrophic this year if the Twins did not change gears knowing that the MLB was deadening the ball.  I felt like I had egg on my face when they came out blazing that first week.  Now, not so much.  Maybe teams were using up the leftover balls from last year to start the season, maybe not, but what worked last year is not working this year since those first couple of weeks.  The ball is deadened, just as we were told it would be.

It's worth pointing out that the same hitting approach has not worked for the Yankees, either.  It's an easy guess as to which team adjusted better to the change.  We just have to look at bullpen stats for each team to know the rest of the story.

You're absolutely right, I can't believe I haven't thought about the deadened ball once since that first week.

[IAMNFan]

Was so excited before the season started when I realized that the Twins would be out in Baltimore when most of our family will be out visiting our daughter before she heads to the Middle East for a year for the Air Force.  Camden Yards better serve craft beer!  The Tuesday night game after a day game could be "epic".  

[Airraidassassin]

Twins Fever comes in a distant second to Dengue, Yellow and Rheumatic on the list of fevers I would like to have

[RickOShea]

The Twins aren't a 'bad' team.  they're a decent team, performing badly.  Sano is not a bad hitter, just not a smart or a consistent hitter.  Josh Donaldson is a gold glove third basemen, who has committed errors at key times. and so forth and so on, with the rest of the team.   With that being said, how does everyone or at least the majority of the  players play well enough on a regular basis?  

1.  They need to be given opportunities to excel. i.e. inexperienced pitchers given the time to grow and develop, not brought up for a major league debut, that will land them back in AAA within 24 hours.

2. Defensive assignments based on ability and experience.  Too many players playing out of position at key times in the game.

3. Hitters  not encouraged by exit velocity and launch angles, rather by making contact and going with the pitch.

4. Management stressing a more aggressive approach.  Better bullpen management.  Management going by instinct or current performance, rather than just by the 'book".

 

[Mike Sixel]

You realize the best teams are worried about launch angle and exit velocity, right? That this is what Ted Williams preached, with different words?

[minman1982]

9 hours ago, darwin22 said:

Ok, I didn't watch the game (who would?), but after watching replay---Mercedes at some point down the road------better "wear one"--below shoulder level------for his BUSHLEAGUE antics in 9th last night!  Up 15-4 with a 3-0 count----you don't swing you moron!  Moreover, you don't swing against a position player thats pitching.  With Rocco at the helm, I'm sure they'll be ZERO repercussion in the foreseeable future as retaliation is "too old school," but I got to think a fair number of vets on this team--if they have ANY competitive fire----will make sure Mercedes pays for that.  I got to believe LaRussa was not pleased with that swing either.  If he did indeed sanction it, he's an idiot.

LaRussa was not pleased with Mercedes.  He apparently gave the sign to take and Mercedes did not listen.  A quote from LaRussa, "There will be consequences he has to endure here within our family.  This is a learning experience.  He has to understand why there is a take sign in this situation.  I am absolutely certain he is not swinging 3-0 in another situation.  You can't give the other team an excuse to take a shot at one of our players.  I heard he said something like, "I play my game".  No he doesn't.  He plays the game of Major League Baseball, respects the game, and respects his opponents." 

I would have loved to been a fly on the wall when LaRussa had a conversation with Mercedes last night in the locker room.  I would have also loved to see Gardy managing this game when this happened.  I bet his response would have been different than Baldelli's.  Probably some expletive laden tirade that gets him kicked out after he has Astudillo hit the next batter with his 45 mph curveball.

[darwin22]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

That's stupid. Swing. These guys get paid based on stats they put up. 

So, sportsmanship/respecting your opponent AND ignoring your coaches & manager is superseded by individualism and money?

Pretty obvious we disagree on this matter. I've said all I'm going to.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, darwin22 said:

So, sportsmanship/respecting your opponent AND ignoring your coaches & manager is superseded by individualism and money?

Pretty obvious we disagree on this matter. I've said all I'm going to.

It's not sportsmanship. It's a silly unwritten rule. If he shouldn't try, the twins should walk off and forfeit. Otherwise, he should try. 

[IAMNFan]

15 hours ago, RickOShea said:

The Twins aren't a 'bad' team.  they're a decent team, performing badly.  Sano is not a bad hitter, just not a smart or a consistent hitter.  Josh Donaldson is a gold glove third basemen, who has committed errors at key times. and so forth and so on, with the rest of the team.   With that being said, how does everyone or at least the majority of the  players play well enough on a regular basis?  

1.  They need to be given opportunities to excel. i.e. inexperienced pitchers given the time to grow and develop, not brought up for a major league debut, that will land them back in AAA within 24 hours.

2. Defensive assignments based on ability and experience.  Too many players playing out of position at key times in the game.

3. Hitters  not encouraged by exit velocity and launch angles, rather by making contact and going with the pitch.

4. Management stressing a more aggressive approach.  Better bullpen management.  Management going by instinct or current performance, rather than just by the 'book".

 

This is why I thought a new voice would be good in the dugout.  Managers are a dime a dozen most of the time, but a fresh voice can sometimes lead to a turn around, not because of coaching, but just inserting some urgency.  Rocco does not understand urgency, IMO.  Probably too late now though, too big a hole.  Now you might as well see if he adapts.

[IAMNFan]

12 hours ago, minman1982 said:

LaRussa was not pleased with Mercedes.  He apparently gave the sign to take and Mercedes did not listen.  A quote from LaRussa, "There will be consequences he has to endure here within our family.  This is a learning experience.  He has to understand why there is a take sign in this situation.  I am absolutely certain he is not swinging 3-0 in another situation.  You can't give the other team an excuse to take a shot at one of our players.  I heard he said something like, "I play my game".  No he doesn't.  He plays the game of Major League Baseball, respects the game, and respects his opponents." 

I would have loved to been a fly on the wall when LaRussa had a conversation with Mercedes last night in the locker room.  I would have also loved to see Gardy managing this game when this happened.  I bet his response would have been different than Baldelli's.  Probably some expletive laden tirade that gets him kicked out after he has Astudillo hit the next batter with his 45 mph curveball.

Words, words, words.  I bet LaRussa high 5'd him in locker room.  LaRussa absolutely loves beating into submission his potential closest rival.  White Sox have talked all off season how they were better team.  Have no doubt, LaRussa did not give him a take sign.  Consequences were that he was in the line up the next night.