I hope you don't work for Minnesota Tourism, might be a slow year.

 

Listen, you'd have to have been living in a cave to not know this team's history of being frugal when it comes to free agents, it's an organizational philosophy, always has been. Argue whether that makes sense all you like but don't try to shove this nonsense down our throats that the Twin Cities is such a distateful place that no highly regarded FA baseball player for the last 51 years would ever consider playing here. It's fu**ing ridiculous!!!

 

I'm not even from Minnesota and I find this offensive!

 

You've got me trumped on your last sentence, and demonstrative of your Canadian politeness and humilty, you're not even from the United States and find this offensive.

 

I'll say it for you, those comments are absurd and delusional.

 

I liked you a lot better when you were singing about that other Northern Shipwreck, the Edmund Fitzgerald. Gordon Lightfoot - The Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald - YouTube

 

LMFAO....hilarious!

29 other teams don't have the same need for decent starting pitching like the Twins do + a boatload of payroll flexibility now and in the future if we wanted to sign a longer term deal.

 

Also, taking my post and changing a few words is not a compelling argument for your side. Clearly you're clueless though, so I'll leave you to your unfettered optimism.

I love MN and the Twins cities. That doesn't change the fact that FA pick ups is a problem for all MN sports teams, as well as teams in Milwaukee and KC and even St. Louis for that matter. The Midwest, besides larger cities like Detroit and Chicago have always had problems obtaining high end FA's. Just a fact (unless you can prove me wrong). I stating that we need to find another way to lure these FAs to MN.

 

New ownership same problems with FA is what I'm hearing. Have the people of MN ever been satisfied with management and ownership?

Parise and Sutter to the Wild ring a bell?

Here's a conundrum for the Ryan appologists:

 

The Twins gave Mike Pelfrey $4 million.

 

The Mets gave Shawn Marcum $4 million.

 

If your logic says that Pelfrey wouldn't spurn the Mets for the small-market (BS), non-contending Twins, then that means the Mets didn't want the guy at $4 million or he would still be in NY. However the Mets did want Marcum at $4 million. So either players DON'T spurn the Twins for big markets, OR the Mets have fewer worries about the risk/reward of Marcum than they do the risk/reward of Pelfrey and the Mets are much more intimately familiar with Pelfrey.

 

Obviously option #2 is the reasoning behind this situation, but the fact that the Mets like Marcum over Pelfrey should have told the Twins that they too should have liked Marcum over Pelfrey.

I agree that it's probably something to do with medicals.

 

That said, you cannot lump Ryan in with those other GMs. No other (or at least most) shouldn't be as criticized for not taking a risk on Marcum because no one else had the need the Twins do. Marcum was also the last in a line of other available pitching upgrades that the Twins didn't get.

 

Really? You think most teams could not use the upgrade a healthy Marcum could bring? I actually think it would be comparable to Haren. It would make sense for a fringe playoff team or better to go after him. If he stays healthy that would be a huge boost. The upside for the Twins is a few wins and the chance to flip for a prospect.

You keep calling these opinions of yours facts.

 

 

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

So you're telling me that if we offered Marcum $5-$8M or so, which is still completely reasonable in my book, that he still would have preferred to go to the Mets? The METS? Obviously 29 other teams besides the METS felt $5-$8 million was too much too. Should have offered your money. (Just kidding ) - He still has to pass physical?

 

but it's absolutely ridiculous to think that we haven't been making good, competitive offers to pitchers since the 90s. Yet every single one of them turned us down because they "just did not want to come to MN".

 

Also, do you honestly think that somehow the Twins are the only team who has figured out how to silence the media and these pitchers' agents from talking about these good offers we've made? "Trust the leaks but not the silence"

 

 

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1088.gif http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1087.gif

I love MN and the Twins cities. That doesn't change the fact that FA pick ups is a problem for all MN sports teams, as well as teams in Milwaukee and KC and even St. Louis for that matter. The Midwest, besides larger cities like Detroit and Chicago have always had problems obtaining high end FA's. Just a fact (unless you can prove me wrong). I stating that we need to find another way to lure these FAs to MN.

 

New ownership same problems with FA is what I'm hearing. Have the people of MN ever been satisfied with management and ownership?

 

Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran and Lance Berkman might disagree.

 

The Vikings have been great about bringing in free agents when needed. Lumping the Wild into the statement probably discredits anything else in your post.

I've got to hand it to the Twins front office, they're apparently the only team in the history of free agency that's been capable of keeping every single quality free agent offer a secret.

 

They're special, and every free agent hates Minnesota, it's the only reasonable conclusion.

The problem with this analysis is the greater risk that Ryan has already taken on deals much less certain to work out.

 

I don't buy this premise. Depending on medicals Marcum could easily be more risky than the major league contracts Ryan signes. We don't know.

 

I do find it telling that the Brewers, who know Marcum well, have money to spend, and have a big need for starting pitching, passed on him.

Parise and Sutter to the Wild ring a bell?

 

Nitpick, it's Suter, but you're right.

 

Odd that they were both offered a fair amount of money as well, don't you think?

Oops. Typo aside, the Wild dispel that argument of his very quickly.

Even if his health is extremely suspect, which I believe it is, what Is there stopping the Twins, or any other GM, offering, a contract with multiple clauses, comparable to the Delmon deal.

 

$5m signing bonus

4 starts in April = first incentive kicks in

4 starts in May = 2nd incentive kicks in

etc.

 

or something along those lines.

Carl Pavano has a ruptured spleen from shoveling snow in his driveway in Vermont...if i was TR i would offer 3 million..there you go 1 more starter for this year

St. Louis was a bad example.

 

1) Does everyone truly believe that the only reason you haven't signed a Top flight free agent is because you haven't offered, at least, equal money as other teams have offered?

2) Does that mean that you agree, that you have to over pay to get people to come to MN?

3) If you agree that you have to over pay? Why is it that you have to over pay? We are talking 20+ years?

4) Is it your opinion that FO has never offered equal money to a Top FA over the last 20+ years?

5) Why is Morris the last to accept?

 

I love MN, but want to know what it is about MN that keeps FA away? Unless you believe MN has never matched an offer? And if they have - FAs still haven't come? Why is all I'm asking?

This is like the age old argument, what came first, the chicken or the egg...

I don't buy this premise. Depending on medicals Marcum could easily be more risky than the major league contracts Ryan signes. We don't know.

 

I do find it telling that the Brewers, who know Marcum well, have money to spend, and have a big need for starting pitching, passed on him.

 

Couldn't you say the same about the Mets and Pelfrey? Why did Ryan sign him then?

I've got to hand it to the Twins front office, they're apparently the only team in the history of free agency that's been capable of keeping every single quality free agent offer a secret.

 

They're special, and every free agent hates Minnesota, it's the only reasonable conclusion.

 

Or the various owners over the last 20+ just don't match offers. I'd like to think it's a combination of both personally.

 

This is like the age old argument, what came first, the chicken or the egg...

 

It's the chicken. Actuality is logically prior to potency.

Now your telling us who to follow?

how to be fans?

 

If you want to take my statement out of context sure.

I love MN, but want to know what it is about MN that keeps FA away? Unless you believe MN has never matched an offer? And if they have - FAs still haven't come? Why is all I'm asking?

 

Probably for the same reason we have so much trouble attracting Fortune 1000 and Forbes 100 companies....

St. Louis was a bad example.

 

2) Does that mean that you agree, that you have to over pay to get people to come to MN?

3) If you agree that you have to over pay? Why is it that you have to over pay? We are talking 20+ years?

 

This is the crux of your problem. Your view of overpaying is being top dollar. And yes, in most instances, you have to be top dollar to get the free agent no matter which team is offering the contract. The agent's job is letting each team know (or conning them into believing) what is being offerd by the other clubs so that one of them will go just a little bit higher.

 

Terry Ryan's view of overpaying is when the pitcher signs a contract for anything more than what Ryan thinks he's worth. Which happens to be nearly every single pitcher who has ever worn a MLB uniform.

The problem with this analysis is the greater risk that Ryan has already taken on deals much less certain to work out.

You can't pretend to know whether Marcum is any less of a health risk than Pelfry or Harden. You just don't know.

Walters, Deduno, De Vries, et al should not be blocking any legitimate prospects. They're AAA filler, nothing more. They're the type of guy you use in a pinch and discard the moment something better comes along.

 

Besides, the Twins don't have any depth at AA, either. This is a non-issue.

 

Not how the game works in mid market baseball and you know that. The Twins don't just jettison folks. I have often wondered why someone has stayed at a level too long and not gotten a shot at moving up. Lotsa times it's a philosophical issue and many others there simply isn't enough room at the next level.

I don't buy this premise. Depending on medicals Marcum could easily be more risky than the major league contracts Ryan signes. We don't know.

 

I do find it telling that the Brewers, who know Marcum well, have money to spend, and have a big need for starting pitching, passed on him.

 

I think it's even more telling that the Mets passed on Pelfrey!

 

Marcum could be more risky, but he's not coming off of September TJ (Pelfrey) and his last year of pitching effectiveness wasn't 2009 (Harden, w/ catastrophic shoulder surgery overlooming any potential comeback) or being extremely sucky for an entire career (Correia).

 

Also, Marcum was never a power pitcher and still has produced vastly superior "power pitcher"-like results over the alternatives who throw faster. His potential "bounceback" from his current medical issues won't be nearly as dependent on restoring velocity, just throwing his dime-store cutter and restoring overall command. Nearly 75% of what Pelfrey throws is FBs and Split-Finger FBs.... in addition....His career peripherals pale in comparison to Marcum's, if his FB starts to touch below 90 this year, he will be basically useless for 2013.

You can't pretend to know whether Marcum is any less of a health risk than Pelfry or Harden. You just don't know.

 

Didn't say that I did know, but see my post above. It's your choice to "know" even less, at your own risk.

St. Louis was a bad example.

 

1) Does everyone truly believe that the only reason you haven't signed a Top flight free agent is because you haven't offered, at least, equal money as other teams have offered?

2) Does that mean that you agree, that you have to over pay to get people to come to MN?

3) If you agree that you have to over pay? Why is it that you have to over pay? We are talking 20+ years?

4) Is it your opinion that FO has never offered equal money to a Top FA over the last 20+ years?

5) Why is Morris the last to accept?

 

I love MN, but want to know what it is about MN that keeps FA away? Unless you believe MN has never matched an offer? And if they have - FAs still haven't come? Why is all I'm asking?

 

A few things. You dont have to bold and underline everything. I do agree that it is because we havent offered equal contracts as other bidders. Getting top flight talent through free agency requires you to overbid. It is in the opinion that in the past 20 years, we havent offered equal money to top flight talent. That is correct.

 

Aw what the hell, I will throw in italics. Morris probably signed with the Twins because he was at the end of his career and teams probably didnt think he had anything left in the tank. Sounds like a reoccuring theme doesnt it?

Not how the game works in mid market baseball and you know that. The Twins don't just jettison folks. I have often wondered why someone has stayed at a level too long and not gotten a shot at moving up. Lotsa times it's a philosophical issue and many others there simply isn't enough room at the next level.

 

Devries, Walters and Deduno all did move up, with less than stellar results that are only bound to worsen. Lotsa times it's simply a talent issue.

 

Who exactly is sitting in AA or A ball that can't get a chance?

Edited January 25, 201313 yr by twinsnorth49