Article: Rock Versus Hard Place

[johnnydakota]

If we are going to the scrape heap to fill out our rotation , rather then sign a Blanton or Myers, there are a couple of former pitchers who i speculated on a couple of months ago , Brandon Webb and Scott Kasmir....reports are that Scott is hitting 93-94 mph in winter ball, as for Webb i havent heard anything , but 1 or both of these guys could be a low risk high reward signing...

Last year terry signed Zumaya, most knew he was probally going to get hurt , but i was ok with the signing.I hope terry takes a risk or 2 this off season on high return type players, rather then signing a slowey or blanton as our ace ...

[savvyspy]

Pretty depressing. Makes me wish we could trade Willingham and Morneau and just commit to a full-on rebuild. Sadly, they might not have as much value as we think they do. And of course there would be a massive PR hit.

 

This team has lost almost 200 games the last 2 seasons. There shouldn't be a massive anything even if Ryan were to trade the entire roster. This roster needs to be completely rebuilt. There isn't one guy on the major league roster right now any other team would choose to build around as a core guy.

 

They have a few nice pieces like Revere, Perkins, Plouffe, Willingham, and maybe Burton & Parmalee but no guys you are definitely building a nucleus around. Those guys are still a few years away.

 

I would trade Mauer, Morneau, and Willingham and just get as much young talent as you can. It would allow you to play Plouffe, Parmalee, Florimon, and even Mastroiani everyday and see what you had. They could also end this dumb act that they are honestly pursuing free agent pitching. They aren't looking at anything but roster filler. You want to take anything to the bank bet your friends that Jason Marquis will have a better year than any of the dregs Ryan is going to sign to fill the rotation. Its easy money.

 

If they would just firesale the thing we could finally admit what everyone already should know. They are going to lose 90-100 games again next year and they should do it with Diamond, Walters, Devries, and Deduno. See what you have and bring up young guys when these guys falter. If you arent going to sign free agent pitching (the Twins refuse to) then you are going to have to get lucky than 1 or 2 of these guys pan out and can tide you over til Gibson, Meyer, and the younger minor league guys catch up.

[Shane Wahl]

As usual, I like the content and tone of Jim Crikket's posts the best!

[Shane Wahl]

There is also a way to spend money to make prospects and the Twins don't do that either. Signing somebody doesn't mean you have to keep him for the duration of the contract. No one is asking for the Twins to mimic the Cubs and Soriano here.

[Rosterman]

Let's say the Twins had signed a Haren, or maybe will sign Dempster, and another starter. That gives them 8-10 wins easily over last year, depending on how Diamond and the back of a rotation pan out. The Twins still need two bench guys (one probably a catcher -- if he can play elsewhere, maybe a good DH/PH.) They probably have 1-2 spots in the bullpen that they can rotate around. But, again, two pitchers don't get them the pennant.

 

If they sign a pair of starters, maybe we do need them around for 3 years minimum...maybe one 4-6 wouldn't hurt to be the veteran presence.

 

But let's look beyond 2013. The Twins will need someone at first. If someone else is at first, then they need a catcher. Outfield will be young. 2B/SS/3B are far from overpowering, they will need to repalce two of those positions. The Twins will basically rebuild their line-up asis in 2014 and 2015, mostly bya dding unproven but promising rookie talent, which can raise havoc and send us abck to .500 or elow status. You don't add 3 or so rookies a season a expect them to shine. Okay, you do expect them to shine, but will they.

 

It is a rock-and-hard place, and going back to an earlier discussion, TwinkieTown is n't exactly a joyous place that a pitcher would care to pitch in if thet aren't going to win.

 

To win in 2013. Three front line starters, at least one infield upgrade, pray that Parmelee can prduce in right, and the bullpen stays strong. The Twins HAVE to spend above-average on at least thre players.

[Kwak]

Part of the promise for Target Field is that the increased revenue would allow the team to afford enough talent to maintain competitiveness as well as re-sign the fans favorite players. I disagree that if the team trades major league talent for prospects (reducing salaries) that it is wasteful/pointless to spend on lower-level major league talent to improve competitiveness. Many name have been bandied about and claims of "overspending" for free agents--Hogwash!--it's called paying market price. The fans were promised a competitive team--so make the effort and put that team on the field. The revenue streams are adequate to build for the future as well as being competitive in the present. Would it be "risky" to sign a Dempster for three years? Of course! All multiyear contracts involve considerable risk. But the Twins will need pitching in the future as well as now.

[rickyriolo]

Twins will not sign anyone at the winter meetings. TR will wait it out and see which pitchers are "left over" and then low ball them an offer and pick up a couple warm bodies for the rotation in 2013. For 2014 lather, rinse, repeat...

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

That list is lacking in Shaun Marcums for options who are better than Diamond.

[kryptik]

What would be the upper bounds of a contract people would be willing to sign Anibal Sanchez to? No "4/48 would be a great value" herp derp either. I mean realistically how many years/dollars would you give him?

 

I don't even think it wouldn't be a bad idea for the Twins to throw a 5-6 year deal at Sanchez. Short of a miracle we aren't going to be .500 in 2013, so why not lock up some pretty good pitching long term to at least show people we are "serious" about competing next year?

[TheMix]

Pretty depressing. Makes me wish we could trade Willingham and Morneau and just commit to a full-on rebuild. Sadly, they might not have as much value as we think they do. And of course there would be a massive PR hit.

 

This team has lost almost 200 games the last 2 seasons. There shouldn't be a massive anything even if Ryan were to trade the entire roster. This roster needs to be completely rebuilt. There isn't one guy on the major league roster right now any other team would choose to build around as a core guy.

 

They have a few nice pieces like Revere, Perkins, Plouffe, Willingham, and maybe Burton & Parmalee but no guys you are definitely building a nucleus around. Those guys are still a few years away.

 

I would trade Mauer, Morneau, and Willingham and just get as much young talent as you can. It would allow you to play Plouffe, Parmalee, Florimon, and even Mastroiani everyday and see what you had. They could also end this dumb act that they are honestly pursuing free agent pitching. They aren't looking at anything but roster filler. You want to take anything to the bank bet your friends that Jason Marquis will have a better year than any of the dregs Ryan is going to sign to fill the rotation. Its easy money.

 

Woah woah woah woah......seriously? I can understand wanting to play Ploufe and Parmalee, but Florimon and Mastoiani?! You've gone out of your gourd man. You want to blow the whole team up? Fine. Don't trade the one centerpiece of the team that's under contract through the years in which we'd see the new centerpieces of the team come up though, and leave us with Mastroiani and Florimon. We KNOW what we have with those two, and it aint good.

[luke829]

Pretty depressing. Makes me wish we could trade Willingham and Morneau and just commit to a full-on rebuild. Sadly, they might not have as much value as we think they do. And of course there would be a massive PR hit.

 

Throw Joe Mauer into the mix and you would have much more than this.

[Alex]

I read a quote and now can't find it about the Twins saying some FA pitchers weren't being realistic, and some here have mentioned the concern about overpaying. However, at some point, maybe it's not them, maybe it's us. It may very well be that the price of starting pitching (and maybe players in general) has gone up. Based on what we've seen so far, I think the Twins have been allowed themselves to be priced out of that second tier of starters.

[Rosterman]

You realize just how good of a contract Span had and the deal the Twins got with Willingham and Doumit. Whew!

[Jim Crikket]

In the end, the "rock and a hard place" that Terry Ryan finds himself in is between: (a) fan expectations the he, Dave St. Peter and Jim Pohlad have are responsible for setting. Each of those gentlemen have publicly stated that they expect the Twins to contend next year and that the FO's intent is to find pitching that will accomplish such; and ( an ownership that is slow to acknowledge that sometimes that kind of fix takes more money than he'd like to spend.

 

Ryan has certainly placed himself in that uncomfortable place by telling fans (and likely, his owner) that he believes he can acquire good starting pitching without spending a lot of money. It's quite possible he significantly underestimated market prices for such pitching (just as many of the rest of us did).

 

If it turns out he can't deliver on his promisies, he's going to have a choice to make: go to Pohlad and ask for more money (they've never told him "no", or so we've been told, right?) or tell his bosses and the fans that he can't do what he said he should be able to do.

 

There's still time for Ryan to get the job done. Haren is the only big time FA pitcher that's signed and most of the rest aren't likely to sign anywhere until Greinke signs. But reality is that the cost of labor has gone up and probably higher and faster than Ryan and Pohlad expected it to. How they react to that reality will tell fans all we need to know about how serious they are about putting a Major League team on the field in 2013.

 

It's a perfectly legitimate business decision for Pohlad to make... whether to spend more money now to put a real MLB team on the field or punt on 2013. But if you choose the latter, I don't want to hear whining from the Twins offices about how fans are not being "supportive" of the team when more than half of Target Field seats are empty all year. If you choose not to put a priority on being competitive, that has to come with the assumption that few people will pay MLB prices to watch that team play.

[JB_Iowa]

You realize just how good of a contract Span had and the deal the Twins got with Willingham and Doumit. Whew!

 

Span and Willingham for sure. Doumit probably less so. But as I mentioned above, that does suggest that rather than "overspending" for free agent pitchers, maybe the Twins would be better off to use some of their money to acquire "bargains" at certain positions that they then may be able to flip for a high ceiling pitching prospect at the trade deadline or next offseason -- a la what they might (or might have) been able to do with Willingham. Of course, you have to be willing to part with those players too.

 

I have somewhat more faith in the Twins' ability to spot a position player who is due for a breakout season than I do in their ability to spot a pitcher who is undervalued.

 

I don't want to see them sign bargain bin pitchers and then pocket any savings ... but if all they want to sign is bargain bin pitchers, I'd be happy to see them put their "savings" into position players that they might later flip for pitching depth.

[Boom Boom]

TR says we're supposed to be realistic about free agent acquisitions. My advice to him is to be realistic about just what kind of upgrade the free agents he's looking at represent. If you're only interested in starters coming over from the NL where they had mediocre results, I'd rather just run out Deduno, Walters, and Blackburn, because the team is going to be awful either way.

[johnnydakota]

It has been stated here earlier, but why get scrape heaps with little or no value.

Sign a top tier free agent then trade him for quality prospects in july or next winter.

With inflated salaries ,just go sign hamilton to a 4 year contract , 3 years at 25 million per and year number 4 at 30 million , knowing in 1-2 years he will not be needed and can be flipped for quality pitching prospects

[TheLeviathan]

Eh, this was all predictable two months ago. You know, when anyone who said this was deemed blind, pessimistic, or anti-twins.

 

This team's need for pitching makes contention pretty much impossible for awhile, especially since FA is about the only way to fix it and we all know this team won't (and often rightly won't) overspend for the sake of it.

[glunn]

I agree with those who are willing to give up on 2013 in the hope of building something good for 2014 or 2015. It seems to me that the Twins are too far from contending to tie themselves up with any new large contracts.

[Mike Sixel]

And how will they be good in 2014, when free agents will be even more expensive?

[Top Gun]

Get your petitions and picket signs ready. It about time to protest. It's been done before in baseball.

[glunn]

And how will they be good in 2014, when free agents will be even more expensive?

 

I think that they need to get good by doing the same things that the Rays and A's have done, while picking up what they can afford on the free agent market.

[Paul Pleiss]

buy the guys at the bottom of the barrel, prepare the club for a rebuilding year and start making moves from 2014 and beyond. There are a lot of holes in this team, and the frong office has not shown itself willing to spend the money needed to make a run in 2013 (nor woud I want them to do so). To future hope...

[Mike Sixel]

The rays got good by being the worst team in baseball for several years, and by trading from excess, oh, and by actually developing their pitching prospects. So basically, 3 years into a new taxpayer funded stadium, they should have a payroll the size of their last one in the dome? They should deal all players not named Mauer that are proven players? I do not endorse this Marlins approach for the richest owners in baseball with a brand new stadium.

[Mike Sixel]

They can afford better players, they choose not to afford them.

[jmlease1]

Please god, let us not sign a pitcher to a 6-year deal! Yuck, yuck, and yuck. How many extra-long big contracts to pitchers have turned out well?

 

Of the pitchers on this list, Dempster is the one I'd probably want: 3 years & $35-$40M is probably more than he's worth, but he should have a shot to live up to that deal over the next 2 seasons and then you're only talking about 1 year of dead money. Better if we can get him for 2 seasons, but I can live with 3.

 

Adding Dempster & Marcum would do a lot to stabilize the rotation over the next couple of seasons while guys like Gibson & Meyers round into shape. Develop another guy from the stock in the minors (there are several options to be a 4th or 5th starter).

 

Don't bust the budget or make a stupid signing. 6-year deals for pitchers are STUPID.

[danswanson]

I don't see the Twins competing in 2013 (or 2014). Therefore I believe the best policy is to pass on marginal pitchers slightly better than Diamond for 12-13 mil/yr wasting the first two years of the deal seeing as how we won't realistically be competitive until 2015. Playing Pohlad Ball means that we will not be competitive until our pitching prospects mature with the possibility of one either 2 or 3 spot free agent pitcher. I say we wait until 2015 to sign one instead of blowing our load for no reason this free agency.

[Mike Sixel]

And do what about attendance? And just pocket the cut in payroll?

[Oxtung]

And do what about attendance? And just pocket the cut in payroll?

 

I don't even want to fathom what many here some to be advocating. The idea that the veterans should all get sold off AND the Twins should just pocket the cash.... I just don't understand how people can be advocating that.

[beckmt]

I still believe the Twins can get some things done, but some chances have to be taken. Both Marcum and McCarthy are risks, but probably will only need 1 - 3 year contracts. These are the type of the players the Twins should sign. It may take $25 mil a year to sign both, but at least one can be signed. Then take a flyer or two(Liariano, Kasmer) who have stuff and tin heads. The last signee could be a Lannen, Myers (etc). That would give the Twins a chance to be competitive. And the payroll still probably would not be $100 mil. I agree with not signing pitchers for more than 3 years, especially FA types who are 30 or over.