Front Page: Dealing with Wheeler Gets Minnesota an Ace

[ewen21]

 

They can compete. They just choose not to. I hope that changes this year.

I agree with that, but throwing tons of money at free agent starting pitching isn't the answer

[Mike Sixel]

They can compete. They just choose not to. I hope that changes this year.

For a free agent or three, yes. For many of them? No.

 

Cruz is gone after this coming year, freeing up a lot of money then. There will always be movement of expensive players....

[TopGunn#22]

The Twins MUST be players on many levels for starting pitching this off-season.  They SHOULD go hard for either Cole-7 yrs $250 million or Strasburg 6-yrs 210 million.  That's what it's going to take to get either of these guys.  They need to make a qualifying offer to Odorizzi and then either make a trade or add a guy like Wheeler.  They really have 4 spots to fill because only Berrios is a lock.  Perez will not be back.  They have a tremendous opportunity with the way the everyday lineup stacks up age wise/talent wise and especially cost wise.  But there is a reason starting pitching costs so much on the open market...it's rare you have an opportunity.  With Cole, you have a chance at arguably the BEST starting pitcher in baseball this year and he's 29 years old.  Imagine him fronting our staff with our lineup.  That said, imagine what the Yankees, Dodgers, Angels etc...all think of that idea as well.  The Twins need a #1 like a Cole of Strasburg.  If you go Cole/Strasburg, Berrios and Odorizzi you can afford to allow a Dobnak or Smeltzer as your #5 and trade for your #4.  I really think Larnach and Kiriloff are close to being major league ready.  And both of them could be better hitters than Rosario.  They both have better strike zone awareness than Eddie so should get on base at a higher clip.  Maybe you use Eddie to get a Robbie Ray type to be your #4.  Wheeler has talent, and would fit in well too, but our "depth" for starting pitching should be Dobnak, Smeltzer, Thorpe.    

[KirbyDome89]

 

"isn't near the pitcher Berrios is" is a little much.

Berrios is probably better, but it's closer than what you are saying

He's putting up similar or better numbers, he's 4 years younger, and he's doing it in the in AL. If we're drafting a team it's an easy call which guy you're taking first. 

[ewen21]

He's putting up similar or better numbers, he's 4 years younger, and he's doing it in the in AL. If we're drafting a team it's an easy call which guy you're taking first.

I don't have a ton of confidence in Berrios. We will see if he takes the next step or gets figured out and doesn't adjust. It's all up in the air as far as I'm concerned

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

If I want to play on the West Coast, Minnesota could write a blank check and I would ignore it, because I know that a West Coast team will also write a blank check.

Sometimes, where you want to play is more important than how much money they will give you. 

How much money does a person really need to be happy, to "take care of his family", to do good things in the community? It's all relative.I really think location is very important. If my family, my mom and dad, and my brothers and sisters lived in Minneapolis...that is where I would want to be. I live in North Carolina because that is where the majority of my family lives. What was it Kirby Puckett said when he took less money to stay with the Twins? I bet it's done a lot of the time.

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by tarheeltwinsfan

[Squirrel]

 

How much money does a person really need to be happy, to "take care of his family", to do good things in the community? It's all relative.I really think location is very important. If my family, my mom and dad, and my brothers and sisters lived in Minneapolis...that is where I would want to be. I live in North Carolina because that is where the majority of my family lives. What was it Kirby Puckett said when he took less money to stay with the Twins? I bet it's done a lot of the time.

 

Bottom line, whether or not a player has a preference, make the best offer. That is the only way to find out, and not guess or assume ahead of time they won't come here. People make decisions based on all kinds of things, and I don't think you can assume anything. So make the best offer and let the player decide. Go after Cole, make him the best offer, then we'll see. Wheeler is not even close to 2nd best and is not an ace. To not do it because you don't think he'd come here, well, that's a mistake, imo. It's 'rumored' that he wants to be with the Angels? It was also rumored that he wants to go where he's offered the most. Make the best offer. Of course, we will never know what tips the final decision. And many here will assume that the Twins didn't make the best offer if he's not in a Twins uniform next year. We have no idea what the reasons will be. You said you've made the decision on where to live because you want to be close to family. I made the decision to be where I am because of the prestige and pay of the job. I don't dislike where I live, but if I could have the job I have back in Minnesota, I'd probably choose Minnesota, but Minnesota can't offer what I have here ... one of the top positions in the world in my field. We all have our reasons. But ... bottom line for me where the Twins and pitching are concerned ... go after the best and make the best offer and then see.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

Bottom line, whether or not a player has a preference, make the best offer. That is the only way to find out, and not guess or assume ahead of time they won't come here. People make decisions based on all kinds of things, and I don't think you can assume anything. So make the best offer and let the player decide. Go after Cole, make him the best offer, then we'll see. Wheeler is not even close to 2nd best and is not an ace. To not do it because you don't think he'd come here, well, that's a mistake, imo. It's 'rumored' that he wants to be with the Angels? It was also rumored that he wants to go where he's offered the most. Make the best offer. Of course, we will never know what tips the final decision. And many here will assume that the Twins didn't make the best offer if he's not in a Twins uniform next year. We have no idea what the reasons will be. You said you've made the decision on where to live because you want to be close to family. I made the decision to be where I am because of the prestige and pay of the job. I don't dislike where I live, but if I could have the job I have back in Minnesota, I'd probably choose Minnesota, but Minnesota can't offer what I have here ... one of the top positions in the world in my field. We all have our reasons. But ... bottom line for me where the Twins and pitching are concerned ... go after the best and make the best offer and then see.

Point well stated. I agree that Twins should make their best offer.

[Thegrin]

After thinking about this...I'd be happy if we opened with the same rotation we had last year (assuming Gibson is cured).  Jose should get better. Odo may be coming into his own. Gibson could be his healthy self. Pineda a was just fine the way he was and Perez could improve.  

I grant you that I am doing some wishful thinking, but its baseball, and we have to lose some games sometimes. 

[DocBauer]

I don't know. Cole was the diamond in the rough less than two years ago. I'd like to find the next one. There are probably a few.

This has to be considered!

 

I have stated a couple times I'm still about 50/50 the Twins will sign a major FA. NOT because ownership is just cheap or any of the traditional rhetoric, but simply because this FO may have a guy or two that they and Johnson just really think is about ready to take the next step.

 

Cole was considered a really decent pitcher, but not an ACE. Suddenly he is the #1 stud everyone wants.

 

In all my years watching baseball, there are so few ACE caliber pitchers who were drafted at the top of the 1st round. Most were/are guys who learned and grew and transformed in to such.

 

Is there someone out there the Twins are targeting who they really believe in? I don't know. Maybe they will sign Oddo, sign Pineda, sign Bumgarner or Wheeler and STILL make a trade that catches us off guard.

 

It's going to be interesting to see what happens. Moves are going to be made. I just hope they make the right ones. They did well this past off season. Come to think of it, they were pretty smart with Odorizzi and Pineda the last couple years.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

What was it Kirby Puckett said when he took less money to stay with the Twins? I bet it's done a lot of the time.

I'd take such reports with a huge grain of salt, especially coming from players or agents. Puckett signed the second largest contract ever at the time (5 years, $30 mil), just behind Ripken (5 years, $32.5 mil). It's self-serving for players and agents to claim they could have gotten more money.

 

Perhaps Puckett received a larger offer elsewhere, but I doubt it was significantly larger. (And even a larger offer on paper could have effectively been equal or less than the Twins offer, considering related moving / real estate / tax expenses.)

[Rosterman]

Can they pitch in the American League with the extra bat in the line-up.

 

How does the pitcher match up to playing in Target Field.

 

Pretty much every starter with an ERA south of 4.25 will command at least three years. The big ones will command at least five (give them longer with an opt out). 

 

I have to admit that I like the Astros method, of picking up pitchers of greatness with limited contract years remaining, rather than having to sign them for 5-7 years.

 

The Twins need a power starter. And they need a closer. 

 

Then they have to find rotation arms that can replace Perez (I think Smeltzer/Thorpe can do that), Gibson (I think Dobnak can do that), Pineda (I think Graterol/Pineda can do that). I'm not sure if Odorizzi 2020 could replace Odorizzi 2019. I would like to think so, but don't know if willing totake the extra gamble on Odorizzi 2021 and Odorizzi 2022...unless the Twins do have other arms that are going to step up for the future. I see Graterol being around for some length of time, but still question rotation/bullpen. I hope DObnak and Thorpe are mainstays thru arbitration.

 

We know the Twins could possibly replicate the rotation/pen results from 2019. But they DO have to do better than that, as the division will be a tad tougher (Clevelland is NOT going away and the White Sox are showing signs of being better).

 

 

[Jham]

At some point we'll have to extend Berrios too. There's no way the Twins will carry more than 2 long term pitching contracts. Historically, we've never even carried 1. Big name free agents require long commitments. For lux tax teams that's actually a benefit, financing over more years. For us, it means looking for 1 to 3 year deals. Reclamation projects, guys at the end, injury prone arms, or just serviceable pieces.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I don't know.   Cole was the diamond in the rough less than two years ago.   I'd like to find the next one.   There are probably a few.

Cole is a pretty rare pitcher. At any given moment, there many not be any with the imminent potential of Cole, available for the price the Astros paid.

 

Maybe you get Cole, or Sonny Gray, or even Odorizzi -- but maybe you wind up with Drew Smyly, Ivan Nova, or Tanner Roark -- or maybe you have to deal with Matt Harvey, or even Martín Pérez (who, after much fanfare in these parts, turned out more rough than diamond, even with magic of Wes Johnson).

 

And while the cost seems low, there's a real risk to pursuing too much of a "diamond in the rough" strategy. With as thin as the Twins rotation looks at the moment, if the new pitcher doesn't immediately excel, you may have just helped punt a season of your core. It's worth remembering the Astros landed Cole when their rotation was already Verlander, Morton, Keuchel, McCullers, and Peacock (plus Musgrove, McHugh, etc. for depth), a group that just won them the World Series. They didn't even need a top FA SP or for Cole to pitch like one to stay near the top of MLB teams.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I don't know.   Cole was the diamond in the rough less than two years ago.   I'd like to find the next one.   There are probably a few.

I'm not against finding those diamonds, but this team is now has a pretty reasonable expectation of being in the playoffs and advancing...

 

Those diamonds cost a rotation spot(s) and can rack up losses and ultimately not figure it out... You can only devote so much roster space to them... Dobnak, for instance, might be that diamond... so much so that I'd have no problems letting him have a spot, but I think you need something closer to a sure thing in there too... That's why I go get Cole or Strassburg if he opts out. 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

I don't know.   Cole was the diamond in the rough less than two years ago.   I'd like to find the next one.   There are probably a few.

 

Cole was a #1 overall draft pick and a #1 starter in Pittsburg. He was no diamond in the rough. Everybody knew what he was. He has just matured and now has become the dominant force that his potential said he could be when he was drafted. 

 

 

 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

This is the issue and it has been one for years. We have desperately been looking for starting pitching for years because we can't seem to raise it ourselves.  At the same time high payroll teams are looking for starting pitching all the time because they can do it no matter how stocked some of them might be.  The free agents want to go to winning teams and those teams have bidding wars and then we are left in the dust unless we throw stupid money around.

 

A lot of people were really into throwing money at Yu Darvish and I think a lot of that was with "making a splash" and "getting a name guy". I think it is kind of a similar thing with Bumgarner.  Sorry, no thank you.  I get trying to acquire Wheeler, but if anyone thinks we have a shot at Cole it would need to be a deal that is literally more than any other team would offer.

 

 

 

Had we nutted up and played a much better series in NY or even won we would be a more attractive destination to free agents.  If a player has a choice they likely aren't interested in playing for a team that has no intention of doing anything beyond getting to the playoffs.  It is a real mess right now and this season that just ended for us needed to be a year where things were a bit different.  After winning 101 games we can't even be competitive in the playoffs.  Players know this about this organization and they aren't wasting time trying to "find the positives"

It is very hard to sell this team to free agents if we are going to be permanent postseason losers who insist that they are successful in spite not winning a damn post season game in 16 tries.  We end up with guys like Lance Lynn, etc....for a reason.

 

I don't think many fans are willing to accept this harsh reality.  Losing in the playoffs the way we did hurt our chances in this year's free agent market to get top flight guys.  Winning some postseason games would have helped

 

I can agree here. So that means if you want a top stud, you have to buck up and pay him. Yep, it will be an overpay. But you have a team filled with cheap guys that hit the hell out of the ball. If not now, it will never happen. 

 

That or you have to be smarter than everyone else and figure out a way to trade for someone that isn't blowing doors off now, but with a tweak here, tweak there can do so. 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Nice discussion!  And a needed one, too!  My two cents:

 

1.  Realistically, for all the good reasons listed by previous posters, there is no chance the Twins will land any of the elite FA starters available.  It's just not in the DNA of this franchise(and Falvine has no doubt absorbed this lesson all too well).

 

2. A Wheeler is not going to move the needle.  He is not an ace, but a good #3-type starter - and maybe less in the AL.  Rare has been the pitcher transferring from the NL to AL and improving performance.  Maybe once in a blue moon.

 

3.  The Twins have no current starter capable of  shutting down a high powered offense in a critical game.  Berrios is a good #2 or more likely #3, but has never demonstrated consistent ability to deliver an ace-like performance in a big game.    And to think at this stage in his career that he can make meaningful strides to stepping up in big games is nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

4, Even signing Odor and Pineda - which is such an obvious move if the Twins want to even come close to repeating their successful regular 2019 season - will not lead to any more  success in the playoffs.  They are unproven in big situations and likely what you have seen is what you will get going forward - good, solid pitchers but not a big improvement over Berrios.

 

5. The farm system offers little in the way of near term hope in improving this squad's playoff capabilities, especially with the organization's abject failure in developing any starting rotation players.  Granted, Falvey has made many organizational; changes but there is still no one on the horizon who looks like a sure-fire #1 0r 2, at least for the next 2-3 years.

 

6.  The only chance for really improving this rotation to playoff caliber is by a major trade, which will probably mean trading one of our two top prospects, as well as a bona fide major leaguer, like Sano, Kepler, Rosario, or Buxton.  Fortunately our lineup is strong now, we have some promising OF/1B/DH prospects that might fill the void adequately, and we have the payroll room to go after a high-salaried star.  The big question mark is whether Falvine are big enough risk takers to accomplish this.  Their inactivity at the trade deadline indicates not, even though the now legendary window was wide open.  Will the humiliation of the first round exit spur them to more aggressive behavior?  That is the big offseason question.

 

Do not agree with #3 at all. Berrios is young. I think there is no doubt that he can still improve. He has the stuff, he has the drive. He is more than capable of beating the big boys if he has to. Has he shown it yet? Maybe not so much, but the guy is only 25. His best years will be his next 3-4 just like almost every starter that ever achieves "ACE" status.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Bottom line, whether or not a player has a preference, make the best offer. That is the only way to find out, and not guess or assume ahead of time they won't come here. People make decisions based on all kinds of things, and I don't think you can assume anything. So make the best offer and let the player decide. Go after Cole, make him the best offer, then we'll see. Wheeler is not even close to 2nd best and is not an ace. To not do it because you don't think he'd come here, well, that's a mistake, imo. It's 'rumored' that he wants to be with the Angels? It was also rumored that he wants to go where he's offered the most. Make the best offer. Of course, we will never know what tips the final decision. And many here will assume that the Twins didn't make the best offer if he's not in a Twins uniform next year. We have no idea what the reasons will be. You said you've made the decision on where to live because you want to be close to family. I made the decision to be where I am because of the prestige and pay of the job. I don't dislike where I live, but if I could have the job I have back in Minnesota, I'd probably choose Minnesota, but Minnesota can't offer what I have here ... one of the top positions in the world in my field. We all have our reasons. But ... bottom line for me where the Twins and pitching are concerned ... go after the best and make the best offer and then see.

 

This. 100X over. 

 

It is always reported the Twins were in on such and such a player and they decided not to come here. If they were top bidders, it would be in their interest to leak that information to the press. "Cole accepted 5/150, Twins offered 6/180." Something like that.  

 

We have never heard this coming out of Twinsville and there is a reason for it. Offer the top bid and you will get your guy 75% or better of the time. This is business and if you think these guys aren't out for money more than anything, you are fooling yourselves. They are also under pressure to take the highest bid by their peers. Something else to think about. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Battle ur tail off

[Vanimal46]

This. 100X over.

 

It is always reported the Twins were in on such and such a player and they decided not to come here. If they were top bidders, it would be in their interest to leak that information to the press. "Cole accepted 5/150, Twins offered 6/180." Something like that.

 

We have never heard this coming out of Twinsville and there is a reason for it. Offer the top bid and you will get your guy 75% or better of the time. This is business and if you think these guys aren't out for money more than anything, you are fooling yourselves. They are also under pressure to take the highest bid by their peers. Something else to think about.

Concur. We'll never see reports like that because it has never happened. They'll always be vague and say they made a competitive offer (whatever that means), or say they weren't willing to offer the additional guaranteed year.

 

You bring up a great point in the 2nd paragraph. The top free agents are always looking to set the standard for future free agents. IMO that's why it took forever for Harper and Machado to sign last year. They wanted to be known as the $300 million players, and didn't accept anything less.

[ashbury]

You bring up a great point in the 2nd paragraph. The top free agents are always looking to set the standard for future free agents. IMO that's why it took forever for Harper and Machado to sign last year. They wanted to be known as the $300 million players, and didn't accept anything less.

In fairness, I think the players' union puts some pressure on the top players to push the envelope, on the principle that they are in position to make huge bucks because another superstar pushed the envelope a few years prior, a rising tide lifts all boats, etc.

[Vanimal46]

In fairness, I think the players' union puts some pressure on the top players to push the envelope, on the principle that they are in position to make huge bucks because another superstar pushed the envelope a few years prior, a rising tide lifts all boats, etc.

I have no doubt that's happening too. Do you blame them? The other major sports in America sign players to record contracts every year. Baseball wants to keep up too.

[Vanimal46]

 

Will the Twins ever dive into the deep end? This is what it takes to be a WS contender.

[Major League Ready]

 

Will the Twins ever dive into the deep end? This is what it takes to be a WS contender.

 

I did not think that history would support this conclusion so I took a look. In 2018, the Yankees got to the WS with one relatively high price SP. Their other SPs were the kind of FAs being complained about there. The Dodgers had one high priced SP in Kershaw who the developed and paid to keep.

 

2017 was the same story for the Dodgers. The Astros traded for Verlander at the deadline. They had no highly compensated SPs at the start of the season.

 

In 2016, the cubs had one high price FA in the form of Jon Lester. Of course, the other participant was Cleveland who had a phenomenal staff. None of them were FA signings.

 

In 2015, the Mets got there on the strength of starting pitching they developed. Their highest paid SP was 42 year-old Bartolo Colon at $11M. There entire payroll was $128M and that includes the $5.3M they payed Gee to play in the minors. KC’s highest paid player SP was Jeremy Guthrie at $9M and they traded at the deadline for Cueto.

 

In 2014, KC had James shields at $13M and a journeymen in the form of Jason Vargas and Jeremy Guthrie. SF had Tim Hudson at $11M and their next highest paid SP was Ryan Vogelsong at $5M.

 

In 2013, Boston had Lackey and Dempster at a combined $29M so they had a significant investment but a long way from $60M+ for two SPs. STL had an internally developed staff.

 

So, to say having two or three of the highest paid SPs in the game is what it takes requires we ignore the facts. I would come to a different conclusion that getting there has been a product of good drafting and development, savvy trades, and getting great production out of modest price FAs.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Major League Ready

[Battle ur tail off]

 

 

So, to say having two or three of the highest paid SPs in the game is what it takes requires we ignore the facts. I would come to a different conclusion that getting there has been a product of good drafting and development, savvy trades, and getting great production out of modest price FAs.

 

So, can I ask what is the best way in your opinion for the Twins going forward to form a formidable pitching staff with the gumption to win some playoff games/series? This core has Jose Berrios as a part of it and nothing else. So is that to say we PUNT on this core?

 

Do we not attempt signing or trading for high end pitching talent this offseason and next?

 

 

 

[JW24]

 

I did not think that history would support this conclusion so I took a look. In 2018, the Yankees got to the WS with one relatively high price SP. Their other SPs were the kind of FAs being complained about there. The Dodgers had one high priced SP in Kershaw who the developed and paid to keep.

Boston made it to the WS (and won it) in 2018. David Price was the big earner at $30M, with Rick Porcello making north of $20M as well. Sale was their best pitcher, of course, and was only paid $12.5M.

 

To your main point, however, it is more important to have 3 of the best pitchers in baseball than to pay 3 pitchers the most money and hope they become the 3 best because they are getting paid.

[Vanimal46]

 

I did not think that history would support this conclusion so I took a look. In 2018, the Yankees got to the WS with one relatively high price SP. Their other SPs were the kind of FAs being complained about there. The Dodgers had one high priced SP in Kershaw who the developed and paid to keep.

 

2017 was the same story for the Dodgers. The Astros traded for Verlander at the deadline. They had no highly compensated SPs at the start of the season.

 

In 2016, the cubs had one high price FA in the form of Jon Lester. Of course, the other participant was Cleveland who had a phenomenal staff. None of them were FA signings.

 

In 2015, the Mets got there on the strength of starting pitching they developed. Their highest paid SP was 42 year-old Bartolo Colon at $11M. There entire payroll was $128M and that includes the $5.3M they payed Gee to play in the minors. KC’s highest paid player SP was Jeremy Guthrie at $9M and they traded at the deadline for Cueto.

 

In 2014, KC had James shields at $13M and a journeymen in the form of Jason Vargas and Jeremy Guthrie. SF had Tim Hudson at $11M and their next highest paid SP was Ryan Vogelsong at $5M.

 

In 2013, Boston had Lackey and Dempster at a combined $29M so they had a significant investment but a long way from $60M+ for two SPs. STL had an internally developed staff.

 

So, to say having two or three of the highest paid SPs in the game is what it takes requires we ignore the facts. I would come to a different conclusion that getting there has been a product of good drafting and development, savvy trades, and getting great production out of modest price FAs.

 

Lots of things conveniently left out of the response here...

 

Didn't know the Yankees won the world series in 2018! JW24 picked up the slack there and mentioned the Red Sox starting rotation salary numbers. 

 

The Dodgers in 2018 also had free agent Rich Hill for $16 million, and 2 large IFA signings in Ryu ($7.8 MM) and Maeda ($6.125 MM). 

 

Since the Astros picked up Verlander mid-season that doesn't count for having a highly paid pitcher on staff? 

 

In your breakdown of the Cubs in 2016, shouldn't it be mentioned that only one starting pitcher (Kyle Hendricks) was pre-arb? The others, John Lackey ($16 MM) Arrieta ($10.7 MM) Hammel ($9 MM) and Wood ($6 MM) cost money. And, of course, they traded for a reliever making $11 million to help win a WS. 

 

Cleveland did build a phenomenal staff. I hope the Twins can emulate that one day. That also takes MLB-ready talent to make it happen. How realistic is that for the Twins today?

[Major League Ready]

 

Lots of things conveniently left out of the response here...

 

Didn't know the Yankees won the world series in 2018! JW24 picked up the slack there and mentioned the Red Sox starting rotation salary numbers. 

 

The Dodgers in 2018 also had free agent Rich Hill for $16 million, and 2 large IFA signings in Ryu ($7.8 MM) and Maeda ($6.125 MM). 

 

Since the Astros picked up Verlander mid-season that doesn't count for having a highly paid pitcher on staff? 

 

In your breakdown of the Cubs in 2016, shouldn't it be mentioned that only one starting pitcher (Kyle Hendricks) was pre-arb? The others, John Lackey ($16 MM) Arrieta ($10.7 MM) Hammel ($9 MM) and Wood ($6 MM) cost money. And, of course, they traded for a reliever making $11 million to help win a WS. 

 

Cleveland did build a phenomenal staff. I hope the Twins can emulate that one day. That also takes MLB-ready talent to make it happen. How realistic is that for the Twins today?

 

1) I said the Yankees got to the World Series not won the world series. 

2) I did not say it's never been done. The point was clearly that it was not necessary to spend $60M+ on two SPs as the post I was responding to suggested.

3) The point of my post was that these WS participants got there with SPs that cost $8M-16M in the case of Rich Hill.

4) Of course some of these SPs were pre-arb. That's what happens when you draft or trade for prospects and then develop that talent.

 

My point was that contenders were built on development and savvy trades and/or lesser price FAs. I don't think you even bothered to consider the point of the response. To be clear, the post I responded to said the Twins have to be willing to spend for a couple $30M+ SPs because "that's what it takes to get to the WS". That statement is not remotely true. I am not sure what you are arguing about.

[ewen21]

A couple of years ago there was a lot of vociferious talk about giving a blank check to Yu Darvish.  The Astros got Verlander in a trade and the Tigers are paying 8 million dollars of his yearly salary next year.  They got Grienke in a trade as well.  Same with Gerrit Cole.  This is something that WE have to do better.  We have players we can use to trade for decent young pitching and we ought to explore all avenues.  We aren't going to get there signing the two most expensive/"best" pitchers out there in this year's market.  

 

The problem with this organization is they fall in love with their prospects and believe they are better than they really are.  Case in point: Byron Buxton and Miguel Sano. For the longest time we acted as though these two were untouchable.  Literally NO ONE should be considered untouchable at this point.  The Astros, the Rays, Milwaukee have all had the sack to trade prospects in the past.  For whatever reason there is this silly notion that we "don't wanna mortgage the future"

 

Make a damn trade or two and don't be afraid to trade Royce Lewis or whomever to get strong starting pitching. Until we can nut up and do that then we probably aren't getting over the hump

[USAFChief]

1) I said the Yankees got to the World Series not won the world series.

2) I did not say it's never been done. The point was clearly that it was not necessary to spend $60M+ on two SPs as the post I was responding to suggested.

3) The point of my post was that these WS participants got there with SPs that cost $8M-16M in the case of Rich Hill.

4) Of course some of these SPs were pre-arb. That's what happens when you draft or trade for prospects and then develop that talent.

 

My point was that contenders were built on development and savvy trades and/or lesser price FAs. I don't think you even bothered to consider the point of the response. To be clear, the post I responded to said the Twins have to be willing to spend for a couple $30M+ SPs because "that's what it takes to get to the WS". That statement is not remotely true. I am not sure what you are arguing about.

1) it's a bit of a nitpic, but the Yankees didn't get to the WS in 2018.

 

Overall, I think the point is, having dominant starting pitching is a big advantage. Houston, Washington, and others have recognized that, and found a way to acquire it.

 

Ideally, you'd have 5 dominant starters all pre arb and making peanuts, all drafted and developed.

 

Since that's a tall order, other successful teams have done what's necessary to acquire it, be that trades, or free agent signings, including FAs at the very top of the food chain.

 

It's pretty unreasonable to think you can have the top players, but never have to pay for them in prospect cost or salary.

 

That seems to me the overall point. And there is no reason the Twins CAN'T do all of that.