Front Page: Dealing with Wheeler Gets Minnesota an Ace

[Mike Sixel]

The Twins need three starters. They have a low payroll, and Cruz comes off next year.....

 

Are people suggesting they not spend money on pitching? Or just arguing?

 

For those who keep saying the twins should develop pitching, I agree. But there aren't six guys ready, there might be one or two. So where should they get the other three? Instead of always saying what won't work, what do you propose will, for this year, not some distant future?

[Major League Ready]

 

1) it's a bit of a nitpic, but the Yankees didn't get to the WS in 2018.

Overall, I think the point is, having dominant starting pitching is a big advantage. Houston, Washington, and others have recognized that, and found a way to acquire it.

Ideally, you'd have 5 dominant starters all pre arb and making peanuts, all drafted and developed.

Since that's a tall order, other successful teams have done what's necessary to acquire it, be that trades, or free agent signings, including FAs at the very top of the food chain.

It's pretty unreasonable to think you can have the top players, but never have to pay for them in prospect cost or salary.

That seems to me the overall point. And there is no reason the Twins CAN'T do all of that.

 

I don't really disagree with anything you said but you are dramatically expanding the argument. I responded to a post that asserted a very specific requirement. That assertion was that getting to the WS required an expenditure of $60M+ on two SPs as is the case with Washington & Houston this year. That is simply not even remotely representative of most winning teams.

 

How many top 15 prospects like Lewis / Kirilloff have been traded by teams with revenue equivalent to the Twins for elite starting pitching? The only example I can think of is when Oakland traded Russel for Samardzija and that was a complete bust. There has to be others but it is very rare. Are all of the GMs of those teams with limited revenue stupid or are those  elite prospects so essential to building a winner that they won't part with them?

 

How many SPs have been signed to $150M deals by teams with revenue equal to or less than the Twins? One ... when Arizona signed Grienke. Of course, they had just signed a billion dollar TV deal. Washington's incremental revenue more than pay's for Strasburg. Detroit did pay big for a number of FAs and their revenue was not that much higher than the Twins but their owner and his willingness to spend was uncharacteristic. Point being we can hope to sign Cole or Strasburg but we should also recognize how rare this would be.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Major League Ready

[gil4]

 

Exactly. It's along the lines that people don't want to play for the Twins because it's Minnesota and the Twin Cities kinda like people don't want to play for the Sabres because it's welllll Buffalo.

The good news is the Twin Cities aren't Buffalo. It might be a deal-breaker for some, but not nearly as many as Buffalo would be. 

[alphanumeric]

 

A couple of years ago there was a lot of vociferious talk about giving a blank check to Yu Darvish.  The Astros got Verlander in a trade and the Tigers are paying 8 million dollars of his yearly salary next year.  They got Grienke in a trade as well.  Same with Gerrit Cole.  This is something that WE have to do better.  We have players we can use to trade for decent young pitching and we ought to explore all avenues.  We aren't going to get there signing the two most expensive/"best" pitchers out there in this year's market.  

 

The problem with this organization is they fall in love with their prospects and believe they are better than they really are.  Case in point: Byron Buxton and Miguel Sano. For the longest time we acted as though these two were untouchable.  Literally NO ONE should be considered untouchable at this point.  The Astros, the Rays, Milwaukee have all had the sack to trade prospects in the past.  For whatever reason there is this silly notion that we "don't wanna mortgage the future"

 

Make a damn trade or two and don't be afraid to trade Royce Lewis or whomever to get strong starting pitching. Until we can nut up and do that then we probably aren't getting over the hump

100% agree with this.   We need to trade Buxton/Sano (or both)  before their value craters.   I could definitely be wrong about Sano though.  I would love to see a Buxton + mid level prospect like Nick Gordon for Syndergaard.   I wouldn't even mind Buxton + Larnach for him.  We have plenty of talent in the outfield.   That might entice Zach Wheeler to come on board as well.

 

1) Thor

2) Berrios

3) Wheeler

4) Odo

5) Dobnak/ bullpen/ Graterol eventually

Edited October 21, 2019 by alphanumeric

[gil4]

 

In all my years watching baseball, there are so few ACE caliber pitchers who were drafted at the top of the 1st round. Most were/are guys who learned and grew and transformed in to such.

This past year, 8 of the top 10 pitchers ranked by bWAR were drafted in the 1st round. deGrom was drafted in the 9th round and Rodriguez is from Venezuela and was not subject to the draft. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

The Twins need three starters. They have a low payroll, and Cruz comes off next year.....

 

Are people suggesting they not spend money on pitching? Or just arguing?

 

For those who keep saying the twins should develop pitching, I agree. But there aren't six guys ready, there might be one or two. So where should they get the other three? Instead of always saying what won't work, what do you propose will, for this year, not some distant future?

100% agreed, you got the money, spend it on pitching... they don’t need a ton on position players, and a no bat all glove SS is cheap... plus you’ll still need the pitching depth at AAA. It would be great if that depth was Devin Smeltzer and not Andrew Albers.

[DocBauer]

I don't feel anyone is saying don't spend and don't trade. I think the basic arguement is build a quality rotation however you can. Be creative and look at all avenues.

 

While not a stud, Odorizzi is a very nice starter and was acquired for a flier prospect. 2 years later he's still good, better even, coming off the best season of his career.

 

Pineda was signed to an inventive deal and paid real dividends before his suspension.

 

NOT going to bring up the same old Darvish arguements again, but the Twins made a legitimate effort and were in the mix.

 

The FO has stated they are looking and will be aggressive. What does that mean? We just dont know yet. But nowhere have they said they wouldn't trade prospects or make a major FA signing.

 

I do find it somewhat humorous to discuss Cole and Strasburg when we dont even know yet if Strasburg will be available. This really is all speculation at this point, and that's fine.

 

The Royals made 2 world series appearances, and won 1, basing their team on solid starters, a top bullpen, speed and defense.

 

The Twins have a MUCH more dangerous and lethal offense than the Royals. There is the makings of a really, really strong bullpen here, especially with another quality LH added.

 

I would LOVE Cole or Strasburg to be wear a Twins uniform. But if they don't, do we just decide we can't win at that point and fold up tents?

 

How about a next best case scenario addition...whoever it may be...with a young and still improving Berrios, Odorizzi, Pineda and youngsters filling in the 5th spot with a deep and talented pen and prolific offense?

 

There are a lot of ways to do this, build this. I don't think a pair of $30M SP necessarily has to be the answer.

[gil4]

 

How about a next best case scenario addition...whoever it may be...with a young and still improving Berrios, Odorizzi, Pineda and youngsters filling in the 5th spot with a deep and talented pen and prolific offense?

There are a lot of ways to do this, build this. I don't think a pair of $30M SP necessarily has to be the answer.

Anyone know how much longer Pineda's suspension has on it?  I'd like to have him back, but there are negatives/unknowns:

1. We don't know if he wants to come back. 

2. His injury history isn't great.

3. His suspension was for a diuretic/masking agent. What (if anything) was it masking and how much of his recovery was from this. 

4. How expensive will he be? 

[ewen21]

100% agree with this. We need to trade Buxton/Sano (or both) before their value craters. I could definitely be wrong about Sano though. I would love to see a Buxton + mid level prospect like Nick Gordon for Syndergaard. I wouldn't even mind Buxton + Larnach for him. We have plenty of talent in the outfield. That might entice Zach Wheeler to come on board as well.

 

1) Thor

2) Berrios

3) Wheeler

4) Odo

5) Dobnak/ bullpen/ Graterol eventually

I would say this idea is a place where we should start. I think that would give us two years under team control with him and I think it's worth taking a chance on. It would be nice to get Cole, but it's just not likely. We can pull the trigger on a trade and get a guy younger than Cole in Syndergaard with still perhaps his best years ahead of him.

[Jham]

100% agree with this. We need to trade Buxton/Sano (or both) before their value craters. I could definitely be wrong about Sano though. I would love to see a Buxton + mid level prospect like Nick Gordon for Syndergaard. I wouldn't even mind Buxton + Larnach for him. We have plenty of talent in the outfield. That might entice Zach Wheeler to come on board as well.

 

1) Thor

2) Berrios

3) Wheeler

4) Odo

5) Dobnak/ bullpen/ Graterol eventually

We will trade them both... when cheaper replacements are available and it's evident neither will resign for a lowball offer.

 

This team doesn't trade prospects, it hypes them. This team doesn't sell superstars, it sells hope, and hope is much much much cheaper than super stars. From that standpoint it doesn't matter much if the prospects pan out or not. What matters is that they represent the hope of the unknown. Fans love prospects, Twinsdaily loves prospects, and the Pohlads love rookie deals. everyone wins... except the twins. Get to know 'em, in deed.

[DocBauer]

Anyone know how much longer Pineda's suspension has on it?  I'd like to have him back, but there are negatives/unknowns:

1. We don't know if he wants to come back. 

2. His injury history isn't great.

3. His suspension was for a diuretic/masking agent. What (if anything) was it masking and how much of his recovery was from this. 

4. How expensive will he be?

 

From what I have read, thus far, he can participate in ST. I've also beard he has a 15 day window for milb work before he would have to be activated, allowing for ramp up time. That should make him available 2nd or 3rd week of May, roughly.

 

He has commented he would be interested in a return...as has Odorizzi for that matter...and several teammates texted and factimed him after the Twins clinched. Not sure about the FO, but Rocco or someone commented about liking him and being receptive to him coming back.

 

Salary? TBD. He has had a decent, solid career, complete with an All Star appearance. But injuries have absolutely held him back. Despite a somewhat slow but decent start to 2019, and a disappointing end, he was damn good for most of it. You could easily argue 2019 was one of his best years. But regardless of that, and arm talent, and potential for 2020, IMO, he will not command a big contract. He earned $8M last season. I maintain a 1 or 1+1 or 2yr deal at $12M is fair and makes sense for both sides.

[DocBauer]

I would say this idea is a place where we should start. I think that would give us two years under team control with him and I think it's worth taking a chance on. It would be nice to get Cole, but it's just not likely. We can pull the trigger on a trade and get a guy younger than Cole in Syndergaard with still perhaps his best years ahead of him.

I am NOT saying no to Syndergard at all. And any deal for him could hurt. But in the best deals, there is hurt and everyone wins. You don't get something for nothing.

 

I don't hate the idea of trading for Syndergard. But I think a lot of people are obsessed with "stuff" vs production. Despite his highest IP TOTAL in his career...only topping 180IP for the 2nd time...he is coming off the worst season of his career. The potential is there, to be sure. But any trade for him is still banking on potential and not some "sure" bet.

[Dantes929]

 

Cole was a #1 overall draft pick and a #1 starter in Pittsburg. He was no diamond in the rough. Everybody knew what he was. He has just matured and now has become the dominant force that his potential said he could be when he was drafted. 

Sorry.   #1 draft pick before he matured and became dominant and I might add coming off a decent season in 2015 and so so season in 2016 with a losing record and a NL WHIP worse than Berrios, Odo, and Pineda this year.    That is kind of the definition of diamond in the rough.   Diamond being the #1 pick.   Rough being someone according to one of the writers here that could have been obtained by after the 2017 by Nick Gordon and a lesser prospect.    

[ewen21]

I am NOT saying no to Syndergard at all. And any deal for him could hurt. But in the best deals, there is hurt and everyone wins. You don't get something for nothing.

 

I don't hate the idea of trading for Syndergard. But I think a lot of people are obsessed with "stuff" vs production. Despite his highest IP TOTAL in his career...only topping 180IP for the 2nd time...he is coming off the worst season of his career. The potential is there, to be sure. But any trade for him is still banking on potential and not some "sure" bet.

Where is there a sure bet? If he doesn't work out then we let him walk when he gets to free agency. The main concern would be what we might give up, but then again we do have tradable pieces.

 

Signing Cole sounds great but it's going to take 6 or 7 years and it's no sure bet he can even walk onto a major league mound in five years.

 

Nothing is a sure bet

[Major League Ready]

 

So, can I ask what is the best way in your opinion for the Twins going forward to form a formidable pitching staff with the gumption to win some playoff games/series? This core has Jose Berrios as a part of it and nothing else. So is that to say we PUNT on this core?

 

Do we not attempt signing or trading for high end pitching talent this offseason and next?

 

There are a number of reasonable strategies. I am not suggesting we sit on our hands. However, there tends to be a lot of rather indignant comments where posters assert the ineptitude of the FO for not believing as they do that certain strategies are “no-brainers. History not only does not support these positions but would refute these assertions if the posters would take an unbiased look at the facts / history. World Series starting pitching is a good example. The same argument is made every year here that the Twins need to spend big in FA to compete. History suggests that this strategy is a very poor way to build a contender, especially for a mid-market team. Successful teams, not just WS winners, draft and develop, make savvy trades, and get production out of modestly priced FAs. High-end free agents have a modest overall impact compared to drafting / development / trades and even the signing of 2nd tier FAs that perform exceptionally well.

 

I would not be inclined to take a hard stance on any strategy without the scouting reports and analytics available to the FO. Having said this … I think the team is in a position where they might have a chance at Strasburg or Cole. They also have the payroll for one other from the group of Wheeler / Odorizzi / Bumgarner. Then, take a shot at a couple projects and prospects to fill out the rotation. I don’t think that team wins more games than last year but they are better positioned for the playoffs.

 

If you can’t get Cole or Strasberg, a good plan B would be to sign two of Wheeler / Odorizzi / Bumgarner plus Pineda. Kuechel or Anderson would be acceptable just not preferable in this scenario. We have the payroll room to make that happen. Obviously convincing two of the three most sought after FAs to come here is also a tall task.

 

Making another trade as good as the Odorizzi trade would be an enormous boost. In that scenario, I would simply take the two best FAs we can get and we could afford that even if one of them was Cole or Strasburg.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Major League Ready

[Jham]

I guess there's really 2 conversations going on with a little overlap.

 

There's: What SHOULD we do? Sign Cole. Trade for Thor. Sign Wheeler.

 

Then there's: What WILL we do? Announce we have no spending limit, try to construct a team within a spending limit of $110 to $135 million. Renegotiate Perez. Kick the tires on Odo, Bumgardner. Get outbid for Gibby. Probably being back Pineda, a test away from a year-long suspension and not having to pay the second year. Give Berrios to a modest extension (1 year past arb) to placate the fans. Look for the next Anibel Sanchez among late free agents.

 

Both are interesting conversations to have. but read alongside each other, the realistic version is frustrating and depressing.

 

If we did somehow make a deal for a big name, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Yu Darvish. Could trade now without giving up a ton and get him close the deal we originally offered. FO obviously likes him.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

How many top 15 prospects like Lewis / Kirilloff have been traded by teams with revenue equivalent to the Twins for elite starting pitching? The only example I can think of is when Oakland traded Russel for Samardzija and that was a complete bust.

Actually, the Samardzija trade worked out pretty well for Oakland. They obviously didn't advance in the 2014 playoffs because, well, they're Oakland, but Samardzija had another year of control. So they flipped him for a great return from the White Sox (Semien, Bassitt, etc.), and after a hot start, Russell has fizzled out for the Cubs.

 

Ideally you'd like a pitcher better than Samardzija and a deeper playoff run to show for it, but this isn't necessarily a bad trade for a team in the Twins position.

[Major League Ready]

 

Actually, the Samardzija trade worked out pretty well for Oakland. They obviously didn't advance in the 2014 playoffs because, well, they're Oakland, but Samardzija had another year of control. So they flipped him for a great return from the White Sox (Semien, Bassitt, etc.), and after a hot start, Russell has fizzled out for the Cubs.

 

Ideally you'd like a pitcher better than Samardzija and a deeper playoff run to show for it, but this isn't necessarily a bad trade for a team in the Twins position.

 

You have a point in that it was not a complete bust. However, the context of this conversation is how to get SP that will take us to the next level. Rolling trades for still unproven players is at a minimum not a solution to the problem being discussed. Actually, it’s the opposite of what is being suggested by all of us.

 

More to the point is that the result of that trade was nothing more than a side note. The discussion was the willingness of teams with equivalent or less revenue to trade top 15 prospects. I would be interested to hear your examples if my take on this is wrong. If I am correct that it is quite rare are the posters here who insist this should be done correct and all of these GMs incompetent?

 

Even more interesting is that you bring up the example of Samardzija to the CWS. That is an example of why GMs are far more reluctant to make these trades than most fans. That trade hurt the CWS for the next 4 years and probably next year too. Samardzija posted a .2 WAR for the CWS. Simien produced 11.1 WAR over the next 4 years including 4 WAR last year and they still have another year of control. For 1 year of replacement level production, they gave up 5 years of a very good player. They have 3 more years of control with Bassitt.

[Mike Sixel]

 

You have a point in that it was not a complete bust. However, the context of this conversation is how to get SP that will take us to the next level. Rolling trades for still unproven players is at a minimum not a solution to the problem being discussed. Actually, it’s the opposite of what is being suggested by all of us.

 

More to the point is that the result of that trade was nothing more than a side note. The discussion was the willingness of teams with equivalent or less revenue to trade top 15 prospects. I would be interested to hear your examples if my take on this is wrong. If I am correct that it is quite rare are the posters here who insist this should be done correct and all of these GMs incompetent?

 

Even more interesting is that you bring up the example of Samardzija to the CWS. That is an example of why GMs are far more reluctant to make these trades than most fans. That trade hurt the CWS for the next 4 years and probably next year too. Samardzija posted a .2 WAR for the CWS. Simien produced 11.1 WAR over the next 4 years including 4 WAR last year and they still have another year of control. For 1 year of replacement level production, they gave up 5 years of a very good player. They have 3 more years of control with Bassitt.

 

We can play the game all day where we point out bad decisions.....but there are certainly good trades also. I'm pretty sure Houston is happy with their deals.....I'm pretty sure KC is happy they won the WS after being aggressive (even if those trades didn't work like anyone thought they would). 

 

In one post you say the Twins should make trades and sign free agents, given where they are now, and then you post this. It's really hard to figure out what you actually want them to do. It's clear you don't want them to trade their best prospects, but I'm not sure your example is that. Your example is trading a few well regarded, but not the best, prospects, and it not working. So, I'm not sure what you are proposing. Simien was the Sox's 6th rated prospect, not some star prospect......

[Battle ur tail off]

 

 

How many top 15 prospects like Lewis / Kirilloff have been traded by teams with revenue equivalent to the Twins for elite starting pitching? 

 

Not very many and that is kind of the point. Half of the time it doesn't take guys like Lewis and Kiriloff. The problem is the Twins have a hard time getting rid of guys even rated in their top 20!

 

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Battle ur tail off

[Major League Ready]

 

Not very many and that is kind of the point. Half of the time it doesn't take guys like Lewis and Kiriloff. The problem is the Twins have a hard time getting rid of guys even rated in their top 20!

 

This medium tends to mix points. It's just the nature of the beast. My point is that part of the rub here is quite a few people here willing to trade Lewis or Kirilloff and even both. I was simply pointing out GMs of similar revenue teams are not. GMs are not that short-term focused because it is there responsibility to build sustainable success. We also differ in our opinion of difference makers being acquired for 6-20 type / 45 FV prospects. The one exception is a team dumping salary but there are not many opportunities of this type.

 

I don't believe the FO has a problem (nor do I) trading the next tier with the exception of  Graterol / Balazovic. They are by far the most likely source of an ace and one or both of them becoming an ace or close to it would be enormous for this franchise. 

 

The fact that Bumgarner and Wheeler did not get traded at the deadline would suggest it was not just the Twins. The asking price was very high. There were several teams needing SP help and these guys were not traded. The reports specific to the twins suggested the only prospects other teams were interested in were Lewis / Kirilloff / Graterol & Balazovic even for rentals. We have no way to know for sure but I don't believe the problem was an unwillingness by the Twins to Trade prospects outside their top 5.

[USAFChief]

 

I don't really disagree with anything you said but you are dramatically expanding the argument. I responded to a post that asserted a very specific requirement. That assertion was that getting to the WS required an expenditure of $60M+ on two SPs as is the case with Washington & Houston this year. That is simply not even remotely representative of most winning teams.

 

How many top 15 prospects like Lewis / Kirilloff have been traded by teams with revenue equivalent to the Twins for elite starting pitching? The only example I can think of is when Oakland traded Russel for Samardzija and that was a complete bust. There has to be others but it is very rare. Are all of the GMs of those teams with limited revenue stupid or are those  elite prospects so essential to building a winner that they won't part with them?

 

How many SPs have been signed to $150M deals by teams with revenue equal to or less than the Twins? One ... when Arizona signed Grienke. Of course, they had just signed a billion dollar TV deal. Washington's incremental revenue more than pay's for Strasburg. Detroit did pay big for a number of FAs and their revenue was not that much higher than the Twins but their owner and his willingness to spend was uncharacteristic. Point being we can hope to sign Cole or Strasburg but we should also recognize how rare this would be.

How many of those six pitchers were drafted and developed by their current team? 

 

One. And that guy was a #1, and might as well be a FA signing because of the contract he's on. Trades played a major role in getting those pitchers to their current (WS) teams. And here's the thing...I doubt ANYone, from fans to the GMs in question, regret those trades. 

 

The Twins can, and should, play in every avenue of talent acquisition, including trading top prospects when it makes sense. Not doing so is intentionally bringing a knife to a gun fight.  

 

 

[Major League Ready]

 

How many of those six pitchers were drafted and developed by their current team? 

 

One. And that guy was a #1, and might as well be a FA signing because of the contract he's on. Trades played a major role in getting those pitchers to their current (WS) teams. And here's the thing...I doubt ANYone, from fans to the GMs in question, regret those trades. 

 

The Twins can, and should, play in every avenue of talent acquisition, including trading top prospects when it makes sense. Not doing so is intentionally bringing a knife to a gun fight.  

 

Like usual you are ignoring what I said and twisting it into a completely different argument. I responded to a poster who said “Will the Twins ever dive into the deep end? This is what it takes to be a WS contender.” He was referring to the current contenders who combined spent in excess of $120M AAV for their top two SPs. History is very clear that this is not what it takes. As a matter of fact, this is an anomaly that I would guess has NEVER happened before.

 

Where point two is concerned … how about giving examples. I never siad the Twins should not make trades. I said that teams with the Twins revenue rarely trade top 15 prospects. If I am wrong show me. Give examples instead of twisting the argument.

 

Where point two is concerned … Again, how about giving examples. I asked how many SPs have been signed to $150M deals by teams with revenue equal to or less than the Twins. I added the concession that the Dbacks signed Grienke but the fact they just signed a billion dollar TV contract.

 

Just once it would be great if you actually addressed my position head on instead of changing the discussion. My points were exceptionally specific. Show me the top prospects traded for Ace SPs and the $150M contracts for SPs signed by teams with equal or less revenue than the Twins. If you come up with a significant number of examples I will gladly concede I am wrong. If not, there is always the possibility you have a much better understanding of how to succeed running a mid or small market team as compared to the GMs doing the job.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Major League Ready

[Vanimal46]

 

Like usual you are ignoring what I said and twisting it into a completely different argument. I responded to a poster who said “Will the Twins ever dive into the deep end? This is what it takes to be a WS contender.” He was referring to the current contenders who combined spent in excess of $120M AAV for their top two SPs. History is very clear that this is not what it takes. As a matter of fact, this is an anomaly that I would guess has NEVER happened before.

 

Where point two is concerned … how about giving examples. I never siad the Twins should not make trades. I said that teams with the Twins revenue rarely trade top 15 prospects. If I am wrong show me. Give examples instead of twisting the argument.

 

Where point two is concerned … Again, how about giving examples. I asked how many SPs have been signed to $150M deals by teams with revenue equal to or less than the Twins. I added the concession that the Dbacks signed Grienke but the fact they just signed a billion dollar TV contract.

 

Just once it would be great if you actually addressed my position head on instead of changing the discussion. My points were exceptionally specific. Show me the top prospects traded for Ace SPs and the $150M contracts for SPs signed by teams with equal or less revenue than the Twins. If you come up with a significant number of examples I will gladly concede I am wrong. If not, there is always the possibility you have a much better understanding of how to succeed running a mid or small market team as compared to the GMs doing the job.

 

That poster was me and you don't need to keep reverting back to it. The Nationals and Astros targeted very talented pitchers, and crazy enough, talented pitchers cost money. 

 

Instead of continuing to discuss what the Twins CAN'T do, what would you recommend that they do? There are 4 open positions in the rotation right now. 

[gil4]

 

From what I have read, thus far, he can participate in ST. I've also beard he has a 15 day window for milb work before he would have to be activated, allowing for ramp up time. That should make him available 2nd or 3rd week of May, roughly.

He has commented he would be interested in a return...as has Odorizzi for that matter...and several teammates texted and factimed him after the Twins clinched. Not sure about the FO, but Rocco or someone commented about liking him and being receptive to him coming back.

Salary? TBD. He has had a decent, solid career, complete with an All Star appearance. But injuries have absolutely held him back. Despite a somewhat slow but decent start to 2019, and a disappointing end, he was damn good for most of it. You could easily argue 2019 was one of his best years. But regardless of that, and arm talent, and potential for 2020, IMO, he will not command a big contract. He earned $8M last season. I maintain a 1 or 1+1 or 2yr deal at $12M is fair and makes sense for both sides.

My guess is he will get more than that. He got $10m over two years knowing he would only be pitching one of those years.  I bet he could get at least 2/$15M coming off a healthy year. 

[Major League Ready]

 

That poster was me and you don't need to keep reverting back to it. The Nationals and Astros targeted very talented pitchers, and crazy enough, talented pitchers cost money. 

 

Instead of continuing to discuss what the Twins CAN'T do, what would you recommend that they do? There are 4 open positions in the rotation right now. 

 Actually, I did not say the couldn't do it. I sadd it was uncommon and our expectations should reflect that rarity. You said this is what is required. History is exceptionally clear that not only is this not a requisite action, other models / approaches have been more successful.

 

BTW ... I have stated in a few different posts what I would do. The rub here is really no different than it has always been. That being fans thinking that a team with a $50M-$250M revenue disadvantage with several teams can just go outbid the other teams. The second thing being we can trade a few 45-50 FV prospects for impact SPs. Hey, if they can trade Javier / Rooker / Duran etc for a top SP with 2 or more years of control ... I am all in.

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Major League Ready

[Mike Sixel]

 

 Actually, I did not say the couldnt do it. I siad it was uncommon and our expectations should reflect that rarity. You said this is what is required. History is exceptionally clear that not only is this not a requisite action, other models / approaches have been more successful.

 

BTW ... I have stated in a few different posts what I would do. The rub here is really no different than it has always been. That being fans thinking that a team with a $50M-$250M revenue disadvantage with several teams can just go outbid the other teams. The second thing being we can trade a few 45-50 FV prospects for impact SPs. Hey, if they can trade Javier / Rooker / Duran etc for a top SP with 2 or more years of control ... I am all in.

 

You also pointed out how bad the Samardzija trade was, even though it is exactly the kind of trade you think they should make, so I'm not really sure what you think. Forgive Van and I if we are confused at this point.

[USAFChief]

 

You also pointed out how bad the Samardzija trade was, even though it is exactly the kind of trade you think they should make, so I'm not really sure what you think. Forgive Van and I if we are confused at this point.

I believe also points to the Yu Darvish signing as an example of a FA bust, even though Darvish was really good this year, and if he was a Twin would have been the logical choice to start game 1, or at least game 2, in the ALDS. 

[ewen21]

 

I guess there's really 2 conversations going on with a little overlap.

There's: What SHOULD we do? Sign Cole. Trade for Thor. Sign Wheeler.

Then there's: What WILL we do? Announce we have no spending limit, try to construct a team within a spending limit of $110 to $135 million. Renegotiate Perez. Kick the tires on Odo, Bumgardner. Get outbid for Gibby. Probably being back Pineda, a test away from a year-long suspension and not having to pay the second year. Give Berrios to a modest extension (1 year past arb) to placate the fans. Look for the next Anibel Sanchez among late free agents.

Both are interesting conversations to have. but read alongside each other, the realistic version is frustrating and depressing.

If we did somehow make a deal for a big name, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Yu Darvish. Could trade now without giving up a ton and get him close the deal we originally offered. FO obviously likes him.

OK, I really don't care to even figure out the what THEY will do part.  It actually is a fools errand to do that because when people do that it gets misconstrued as a personal opinion.  What I think they might do (or will do) has nothing to do with what my desire is and should not enter into the conversation unless one makes it clear saying first....."this is what I think they will do"

 

As far as what I would do, I would be open to trading Buxton, Rosario or Kepler.  They can bring us a lot and quite frankly can replace outfielder.  I would look to get Syndergaard or someone on that level using one of those players and a couple of prospects if need be.  Of course, I would want a prospect or two from the Mets.

 

I think Cole is a pipe dream and I believe he is at his high water mark.  Bumgarner can kick rocks.  I don't like him and I think of him as Roy Oswalt 2.0.  He would be a mistake, in my opinion.  Syndergaard can be one as well, but we have leverage with him.   I don't like Darvish at all.  I think he is weak and for all his talent and flash he would be a horrible guy to go after unless Chicago wants to eat half of that contract (at least).

 

I would resign Jake, but not Gibson.  Gibson has health issues and I think he is spent here in Minnesota.  Been there, done that with him.  Enough already.  Have a nice life.  I would resign Pineda because I think he might want to come back if we give him another two year deal with an option for a third.  He is actually a talented arm and if he can get together with Sano and commit to some offseason conditioning/diet regimen we could have something.

 

Syndergaard

Berrios

Odorizzi 

Pineda

and I would make a play for Hyun-Jin Ryu.

 

We wouldn't be breaking the bank here and we can have this staff for a couple of years.  I would go looking for another big bat or maybe a solid catcher.  Love Garver, but he was exposed big time in the postseason and he could very well be a one hit wonder.  Give me Grandal

[ewen21]

 

I believe also points to the Yu Darvish signing as an example of a FA bust, even though Darvish was really good this year, and if he was a Twin would have been the logical choice to start game 1, or at least game 2, in the ALDS. 

By what standard was Darvish really good?  The guy implodes at the drop of a hat, his ERA was 3.98 in the NL, he led the league in HRs allowed, he loses the strike zone and is to me a headcase.

 

I did not want him when everyone was talking about him and I certainly can't take any talk about coming here now.  He is not the kind of guy I want on the mound in the postseason at Yankee Stadium.  They'd need to put him in a straightjacket.

 

A resounding NO on Darvish