A plea to the front office.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 5:00 PM, spycake said:

I think the poster was assuming that the trade made it less likely we could re-sign Escobar. I'm not really sure about that, but it could be a factor. And he is looking pretty good on his new contract.

 

Not that we really need position players right now, of course. To the extent that perhaps there's a downgrade from Escobar to Schoop, or to Marwin, it hasn't hurt us much and it might be worth adding Duran etc.

It should also be noted that Adrianza has basically become a clone of Escobar, except cheaper and younger.

 

I regretted losing Escobar in the moment but given how this season has played out, it's pretty hard to make a big deal of it at this point.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 5:04 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

It should also be noted that Adrianza has basically become a clone of Escobar, except cheaper and younger.

Less than a year younger, actually, but Adrianza is definitely cheaper.

[SomeGuy]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 5:00 PM, spycake said:

I think the poster was assuming that the trade made it less likely we could re-sign Escobar. I'm not really sure about that, but it could be a factor. And he is looking pretty good on his new contract.

 

Not that we really need position players right now, of course. To the extent that perhaps there's a downgrade from Escobar to Schoop, or to Marwin, it hasn't hurt us much and it might be worth adding Duran etc.

I doubt we could offer the position stability that he's had in Arizona 82 of 100 games at 3rd. Hard to say how he would have viewed us or how much he wanted a set role, etc. Certainly not a guarantee that he resigned without a trade. Either way I love the trade.

 

I like Gonzalez more than Escobar because he can be the 4th OF and play the Escobar positions, plus we have Adrianza and Arraez in that role too.

[Brock Beauchamp]

  On 7/24/2019 at 5:14 PM, spycake said:

Less than a year younger, actually, but Adrianza is definitely cheaper.

Yeah, neither the age or cost is really signifiant when you get right down to it but losing Escobar hasn’t really hurt this team overall.

[Bomba2026]

Do you think the "Boss" is trying to move the team to Miami??

[yarnivek1972]

  On 7/24/2019 at 3:43 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yep, and that's what I've basically been saying since they failed to nab Kimbrel. They're not going to go out and nab an elite reliever on July 1st and that's okay.

 

But the fact that they didn't aggressively go after a Kennedy or a LOOGY is really pissing me off right now. Even if you "overpay" for that guy, the cost is still pretty low and easily done with a farm system this deep through the middle.

 

There are options and I don't know which ones are best. What I do know is that "no option" is the worst choice possible, particularly when the team's bullpen has been teetering on the brink almost since Opening Day and has been costing the Twins games pretty consistently for the past six weeks.

 

Hell, they didn't even give Lewis or Stashak a real shot before two days ago.

 

Do something.

Ryan O’Rourke continues to languish in AAA for the Mets. Sure his overall numbers aren’t real great, but he’s still very good vs LHB.

[bighat]

This ain't on the Pohlads. This is on Falvine.

 

What we all predicted would be a problem is now a full-blown disaster. Who's ready today? Is Trevor May going to come in and try and pitch 2 innings again? We know how that goes. Rogers is showing signs of overuse and he's the only decent arm there. Stashek looked good but he'll likely head down soon again.

 

The cupboard is bare, the Twins got their hearts ripped out last night, the final game of the series is looming, and the Indians are playing Toronto.

 

Pardon us Twins fans for feeling frustrated. Still can't believe last night. The bullpen basically told the offense: "no matter how hard you work, we're gonna lose this game". Unacceptable.

[howeda7]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 1:30 PM, terrydactyls1947 said:

Your post saved me a lot of typing. So many posters act like a trade is easy. It isn't unless it is 100% lopsided, not in your favor.

It's also not hard. If the Yankees are in the race and need something, they go it get it. Every time. Same with the Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. The Twins can't afford to do it every time. But they have to when the team is legitimately good enough. This isn't the 2017 or 2008 Twins which were plucky but had no real shot in the play-offs. This is much more like 2006/2010.

[Riverbrian]

  On 7/24/2019 at 3:06 PM, Vanimal46 said:

LOL. Please be realistic if you're countering back on Chief's argument. In no universe are 2 rental players costing the team's top 5 prospects.

Understood and I agree... but as ridiculous as the suggestion is... and I agree it’s rediculous.

 

It establishes a very important point that is getting lost in this Trade Now discussion.

 

The ridiculous suggestion establishes that there is a limit to what the team should be willing to give up.

 

If there is a limit. How do you pay enough to shock Kansas City into trading without going over that limit. Especially when they are taking 11 phone calls from teams on that player and a assumption that the price will go up over time.

[Vanimal46]

  On 7/24/2019 at 6:33 PM, Riverbrian said:

Understood and I agree... but as ridiculous as the suggestion is... and I agree it’s rediculous.

 

It establishes a very important point that is getting lost in this Trade Now discussion.

 

The ridiculous suggestion establishes that there is a limit to what the team should be willing to give up.

 

If there is a limit. How do you pay enough to shock Kansas City into trading without going over that limit. Especially when they are taking 11 phone calls from teams on that player and a assumption that the price will go up over time.

I didn't think Chief needed to clarify to pay whatever it takes *within reason*

 

A community forum isn't very productive or fun when posters take it literally and post it's going to take all 5 of the team's top prospects to trade for Ian Kennedy.

 

The members on this site are sharp. Really sharp. No need to dilute the conversation in that way.

[h2oface]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 1:05 PM, Danchat said:

Getting Duran for 2 months of Escobar was a great deal IMO. Reminds me of how we got Escobar for 2 months of Liriano but most called that a bad trade at the time.

Trading Pressly and then doing nothing to bolster the pen has been the most confusing thing the FO has done so far. Outside of giving Matt Freaking Belisle most of last season to embarrass himself.

 

As opposed to just resigning a fan favorite and getting his career year this year? Is Duran even in AA ball yet? Nope. Will he ever get to the majors? Maybe. Maybe not. Could we have used Escobar this year. Definitely. Even if Duran does make it to the shoe, ever, does it negate what we needed this year? Not in my book. Will we even be alive if and when Duran maybe gets to the show. Maybe. Good trade? Not in my book. He should have been resigned, not traded. 

 

If only there was another Pressly to be had. I submit there is not.

[howeda7]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 6:40 PM, Vanimal46 said:

I didn't think Chief needed to clarify to pay whatever it takes *within reason*

A community forum isn't very productive or fun when posters take it literally and post it's going to take all 5 of the team's top prospects to trade for Ian Kennedy.

The members on this site are sharp. Really sharp. No need to dilute the conversation in that way.

This. The idea that they can't add 2 substantive relievers without gutting the farm system is absurd.

[Riverbrian]

  On 7/24/2019 at 6:40 PM, Vanimal46 said:

I didn't think Chief needed to clarify to pay whatever it takes *within reason*

 

A community forum isn't very productive or fun when posters take it literally and post it's going to take all 5 of the team's top prospects to trade for Ian Kennedy.

 

The members on this site are sharp. Really sharp. No need to dilute the conversation in that way.

Fair Enough. I’ll simplify my stance then as the KC GM. Why am I trading Kennedy now when I know I can get more when Giles is off the market. Waiting a week increases my return unless he gets hurt. Maybe waiting for the off season increases my return.

 

We sit here and demand action now from the Twins but that action will require an agreement from KC and KC should be playing us against the Phillies and everyone else using time as leverage and time isn’t leverage that the Twins will get to enjoy especially with the fan base screaming NOW!!!

 

So if you agree there is a limit to what we should pay... there ya go.

[alarp33]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 6:40 PM, Vanimal46 said:

I didn't think Chief needed to clarify to pay whatever it takes *within reason*

A community forum isn't very productive or fun when posters take it literally and post it's going to take all 5 of the team's top prospects to trade for Ian Kennedy.

The members on this site are sharp. Really sharp. No need to dilute the conversation in that way.

 

I believe yesterday his exact words were  "I'd trade Lewis for an effective middle reliever". So clarifying is probably helpful. He (and others) have been pretty outspoken about doing something regardless of cost

[yarnivek1972]

  On 7/24/2019 at 7:07 PM, Riverbrian said:

Fair Enough. I’ll simplify my stance then as the KC GM. Why am I trading Kennedy now when I know I can get more when Giles is off the market. Waiting a week increases my return unless he gets hurt. Maybe waiting for the off season increases my return.

 

We sit here and demand action now from the Twins but that action will require an agreement from KC and KC should be playing us against the Phillies and everyone else using time as leverage and time isn’t leverage that the Twins will get to enjoy especially with the fan base screaming NOW!!!

 

So if you agree there is a limit to what we should pay... there ya go.

I think what KC is most after is salary relief. The sooner someone makes thst happen, the happier they should be.

[USAFChief]

  On 7/24/2019 at 7:27 PM, alarp33 said:

I believe yesterday his exact words were  "I'd trade Lewis for an effective middle reliever". So clarifying is probably helpful. He (and others) have been pretty outspoken about doing something regardless of cost

Can you point me to that post?

 

I said nobody should be off limits. Ever.

 

I don’t even WANT the Twins to trade for a “middle reliever.” Unless it’s the third add to the bullpen behind two guys who are as good or better than Rogers.

 

But I certainly believe the time has long since come and gone to address the bullpen. Falvine screwed up, big time, now pay up and fix it yesterday.

[alarp33]

  On 7/24/2019 at 8:19 PM, USAFChief said:

Can you point me to that post?

 

I said nobody should be off limits. Ever.

 

I don’t even WANT the Twins to trade for a “middle reliever.” Unless it’s the third add to the bullpen behind two guys who are as good or better than Rogers.

 

But I certainly believe the time has long since come and gone to address the bullpen. Falvine screwed up, big time, now pay up and fix it yesterday.

You didn’t say “middle”. My mistake. The implication was you would trade Lewis for any reliever. You followed up by adding he can’t hit or play SS

 

I think based on your posts to question if you are advocating for a trade both teams are satisfied with, or if you’ll be happy simply that a deal is made.

 

I would speculate a deal of Lewis, Duran and Graterol for say Giles could be completed today. Would you do that?

[howeda7]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 7:07 PM, Riverbrian said:

Fair Enough. I’ll simplify my stance then as the KC GM. Why am I trading Kennedy now when I know I can get more when Giles is off the market. Waiting a week increases my return unless he gets hurt. Maybe waiting for the off season increases my return.

We sit here and demand action now from the Twins but that action will require an agreement from KC and KC should be playing us against the Phillies and everyone else using time as leverage and time isn’t leverage that the Twins will get to enjoy especially with the fan base screaming NOW!!!

So if you agree there is a limit to what we should pay... there ya go.

If I have to eat an extra $ million of his salary to get the deal done now, or upgrade the prospect slightly, I do it. He might save 1-2 wins in the extra week.

[USAFChief]

  On 7/24/2019 at 9:07 PM, alarp33 said:

You didn’t say “middle”. My mistake. The implication was you would trade Lewis for any reliever. You followed up by adding he can’t hit or play SS

I think based on your posts to question if you are advocating for a trade both teams are satisfied with, or if you’ll be happy simply that a deal is made.

I would speculate a deal of Lewis, Duran and Graterol for say Giles could be completed today. Would you do that?

No, you’re still inventing positions for me.

 

But since you asked, I’d do Duran and a lower prospect or three for Giles. No to Lewis straight up. I’d think long and hard on Graterol straight up. I’ll say yes. Giles is controlled thru 2020. TINSTAAPP.

[Riverbrian]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 9:12 PM, howeda7 said:

If I have to eat an extra $ million of his salary to get the deal done now, or upgrade the prospect slightly, I do it. He might save 1-2 wins in the extra week.

 

That'll be perfectly fine by me. 

 

It just doesn't make sense to me, that they are sitting an inch away from a deal, staring at that inch refusing to budge. 

 

If I were to guess... Kansas City is asking for another foot and waiting for the Twins, Phillies, Dodgers, Braves, Red Sox, Rays, A's, Astros, Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals to say, alright, here is that other foot you want.

 

Meanwhile the Twins, Phillies, Dodgers, Braves, Red Sox, Rays, A's, Astros, Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals are reluctant to give that other foot because they might need that foot for Giles and they might want Giles more. 

 

But... Hey... I'm not in the room... just logical enough to assume that they are not holding out over an inch of real estate. Something is dragging the process out. 

 

 

 

 

[MileHighTwinsFan]

How about Wade Davis from the Rockies.  His overall ERA looks horrendous, but almost all of the damage has been in that living hell for pitchers - Coors Field.  His ERA away from Coors is at 0.73.   Talk about a guy who would welcome a change of scenery.   

 

Brian Shaw would also be an option.  His home/away splits are not quite as dramatic, but I still think he could be valuable.

 

2 guys with signifiant playoff experience that could be had without selling the farm.

 

[FLTwinsGuy]

Blake Parker was just DFA

[alarp33]

  On 7/24/2019 at 9:33 PM, USAFChief said:

No, you’re still inventing positions for me.

 

But since you asked, I’d do Duran and a lower prospect or three for Giles. No to Lewis straight up. I’d think long and hard on Graterol straight up. I’ll say yes. Giles is controlled thru 2020. TINSTAAPP.

I’d likely trade Graterol straight up for Giles as well, so we agree.

 

Btw your exact comments yesterday; I’m not making it up...

 

Personally, I'd trade Lewis for an effective reliever heads up. Lewis can't hit, and won't stay at SS. Way overrated, but that's just me.

[Danchat]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 6:53 PM, h2oface said:

As opposed to just resigning a fan favorite and getting his career year this year? Is Duran even in AA ball yet? Nope. Will he ever get to the majors? Maybe. Maybe not. Could we have used Escobar this year. Definitely. Even if Duran does make it to the shoe, ever, does it negate what we needed this year? Not in my book. Will we even be alive if and when Duran maybe gets to the show. Maybe. Good trade? Not in my book. He should have been resigned, not traded. 

 

If only there was another Pressly to be had. I submit there is not.

Reports indicate that Escobar declined the extension the Twins offered him, so they traded him. Perhaps they should have offered him more money, but trading him was far wiser than letting him hit free agency. I'd love to have Escobar on this team, but our infield is doing fine without him. 

 

Who knows if Duran will make it, but I'll take that level of pitching prospect for two months of Escobar. We needed and still need pitching prospects with high ceilings like that. Not to mention, Duran's prospect stock has flown up since he was traded, and is now considered a top 10 prospect, and could be used in a trade to get somebody better than two months of Escobar.

[KirbyDome89]

 

  On 7/24/2019 at 2:13 PM, Darius said:

People can make all of the excuses they want for why a move hasn’t been made. But, that’s all they are. Bad excuses that are bordering on delusion/denial at this point.

The lack of attention to the pen during the off-season was a giant mistake. There should be no pass given there. That’s a decision they made. Didn’t the think this team could win? Well, that was an awful evaluation (and why spend the cash on Gonzalez, Cron, etc, then?). Bringing in Blake Parker as a late inning guy after he was cast off by a worse team? Wonderful idea.

The market hasn’t been set? Does anyone even know what that means? That is such a Pohlad Pocket Protector-esque meaningless excuse.

The market exists while the window is open. It always exists. Nothing has to be “set” by another team in order to make a trade. If the market wasn’t set, how did the Yankees, Athletics, and Red Sox all address needs via trade already? Bunch of hogwash.

But, let’s say that excuse holds any water whatsoever. You have to make a trade first in order to set the market. Why is it illegal for the Twins to the pull the trigger first? We must wait until the choice relievers are gone to know what to pay for the leftovers? What does that even mean, “the market isn’t set?” Infuriating excuse.

I’m starting to wonder: What good moves has this FO made? Bringing in Cruz? My 4 year old could tell you that Nelson Cruz is a good player and should be signed if affordable (let’s not act like he didn’t fall in their lap, either. If any of about 15-20 other teams wanted him that’s where he’d be). Cron? He came here by default, basically. Nobody wanted him. Anyone else worth a damn is a holdover from the Ryan/Smith regimes. There’s a pretty long list of awful evaluations piling up (Morrison, Lynn, Schoop is awful, Parker, etc.).

These guys are given way more credit than they deserve. What good are these numbers they’ve been crunching doing now? They’re watching what is possibly the best chance they’ll have to win a World Series slip away.

I agree, there really isn't any excuse for the state of the bullpen other than the Twins were being cheap, and that isn't really an excuse. It was a huge oversight, and it wasn't hard to predict it becoming an issue. There shouldn't be a pass issued, and I don't think many are handing one out. 

 

Cron came at a reasonable rate and this team needed a 1B, it's hard to hate on that move too much. I was, and still am, happy with the Marwin signing. I'll grant you that the timing of the signing does suggest that if Sano hadn't injured himself MN was fully prepared to start the season with a payroll hovering around 100M. The Parker signing was never met with rave reviews. 

 

The bullpen was aided by a slow early schedule and the starters going deep into games to begin the year. Once the schedule picked up and some of the starters regressed the warts started showing up. 

 

No matter how easy or logical the Cruz signing was, the FO got it done and they deserve credit for it. Cron was coming off a 30 HR season, he wasn't unwanted by the rest of the league. TB DFA'd Corey Dickerson the previous season after he was an AS, and he went on to win a GG last year. Schoop is going to finish with 20+ HRs, a 780is OPS, and 2+ bWAR; I'll take that from a 2B. The Kepler and Rosario extensions look pretty good right now. The Odorizzi trade is a feather in their cap, ect. This FO has definitely done some things right. 

 

I've been more critical than some when it comes to the FO. I have my own list of grievances (Rule V picks, handling of the Jelfry Marte contract, Buxton's service manipulation, laundry list of waiver claims that flame out, Matt Belisle pitching last season, ect) and bullpen oversight this season is near the top.