Article: A Tale of Two Paths for Twins

[Mike Sixel]

 

You know what a straw man argument is right? I never said the league isn't getting younger. That was in fact the very point of my post. Literally, I said nothing is more valuable in today's game than the young cost-controlled star.

These players afford the ability to sign top players and remain out of luxury tax liability. These players also allow small market teams to compete if they can get lucky. Maximizing cost-control, number of prime years vs developmental years, and trade value of guys the league loves more than you do is sound management.

 

Then I either read it 100% wrong, or your post isn't as clear as you think...because it read like don't promote guys faster.....at least to me.

[DocBauer]

Help me understand how bringing in 1 year deals helps a team that lost 84 games be competitive? And if it doesn't, what is the point? I'm genuinely asking, what is the point of spending a lot of money on adding 1 hitter to this lineup?

 

As for the rotation, Odo, Pineda, and Gibson are free agents next year. How do you propose having a good rotation in 2020, if you don't add anyone this year? Even if you are lucky, and 2 new guys work out, you are still 2 starters short in 2020.

 

Again, I'm genuinely asking, because I don't see the same path.....

Great question. To be clear, I used a 1 year deal as an option, not a problem with a 2 year. The reason for a short term deal for a hitter is we lose Mauer as a good OB lead off. We dont know if any infielder brought in could replace Escobar's production, or a previously healthy Dozier. With Rooker, Khiriloff and Lewis all 3 possibly ready by the end of 2019 or early 2020, I'm looking for a veteran hitter to be productive at the top of the order, or allow Polanco to move there.

 

As to the rotation, I believe Gibson will be extended. I believe that at least one of Romero, Thorpe, etc, will establish themselves in 2019. As to whether Pineda and Odorizzi are BOTH gone for 2020 isn't my concern NOW. I have options to make a trade in 2019 to acquire an arm, or move pieces like Odorizzi or Pineda, as well as the next off season to make a major move. Am I opposed to the idea of the Twins acquiring a big arm now? Absolutely not.

 

But today, reflecting on 2018 and looking forward, the pen, at least one quality infielder, and maximizing the talent on hand are my biggest priorities. I kinda like the 4 starters penciled in and seeing what the first half brings us in regard to the young arms on hand.

[yarnivek1972]

Actually, the league is getting younger and younger, the exact opposite of what you are saying. why? Because teams are realizing that players start aging earlier than thought, and they are realizing none of them are finished products when they come up, so get them up earlier. Literally the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 

Stars are coming up earlier and earlier too........and no, don't try the "not everyone can be Harper or Trout" strawman. The stats are clear, the league is much younger now than it was.

Kinda comes back to the elephant in the organization: not being able to develop players as well as other teams in the league.

[yarnivek1972]

Actually, the league is getting younger and younger, the exact opposite of what you are saying. why? Because teams are realizing that players start aging earlier than thought, and they are realizing none of them are finished products when they come up, so get them up earlier. Literally the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 

Stars are coming up earlier and earlier too........and no, don't try the "not everyone can be Harper or Trout" strawman. The stats are clear, the league is much younger now than it was.

Kinda comes back to the elephant in the organization: not being able to develop players as well as other teams in the league.

[mlhouse]

 

Good lord am I sick and tired of this "history lesson"

 

Everyone knows the story, but go ahead and name two more guys who had the same thing happen.  Talk to us about two guys in our system since Hrbek that were promoted like that and became part of a "nucleus" that won?

 

It is the stupidest thing in the world to suggest the players you listed be called up to "take their lumps"

If the Twins did what you suggest, not only would the be the laughing stock of baseball, but they could also be ruining the development of some of these players.  Why?  Because it worked once in 1981!

 

Can we divorce ourselves from this lunacy once and for all?

 

Of course you are tired of the history lesson.  AS far as lunacy, what is lunacy is pretending that this organization is going to sign the level of free agents or make the high impact trade that will suddenly create a team that is a true contender.

 

And, as far as lunacy, this worked in 1987, extended in 1991, and worked in the M-M days in devloping that team.

 

What hasn't happened in this rebuild is the total commitment to the young talent.  Even in 2015, the year the team brought up some of that "era's" main prospects:  Sano, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler all of these players started 2015 in the minor leagues (Kepler only got 7 PAs late in the season).  Instead, the team plugged in guys like 30 yo Shane Robinson and 28 year old Jordan Schafer.  The players that the FO deemed "not ready", at least to start the year, were so much better than the players they played.  THAT IS LUNACY.

 

Again, while we have brought up young players, the team hasn't shown a commitment to them.  We had managers taht were not good fits for the young players.  Instead of giving our own internal prospects up we brought in every waiver wire misfit in the league.   

 

At this point, the team should have a much better understanding of the potential of their current prospects than what they do.  What do I mean by that?  Take an example of Fernando Romero (but you can plug in Gonsalves, Stewart, Vasquez, etc).  Do we ahve a firm understanding if he is a going to be a solid picther in the majors?  Obviously not.  But then, he is already 23 years old.  He has pitched in 11 major league games with a 4.69 ERA.

 

History lesson?  Compare the treatment of Romero with how the Twins handled Frank VIola.  Viola was drafted in 1981.  He went directly to AA ball his draft year and pitched 97 innings.  He starter the 1982 season in AAA but made only 8 starts there before being called up.  Guess waht, he wasn't ready.  In 1982 Viola had a 5.21 ERA over 126 innings.  But the Twins stuck with him.  IN 1983 as a 23 year old, the same age as Romero, Viola sucked.  But the Twins sent him out to the mound for 210 innings even though his ERA was 5.49.

 

THAT IS COMMITMENT TO REBUILDING.   The current Twins FO does not have done that.  THey would have dumped Viola back down to the minors in 1982 and started him down in the minors again in 1983.  "He wasn't ready".  But, what is obvious, is that the current (and previous) FO approach would have meant he wasn't ready in 1984 either when he placed 6th in the Cy Young voting.  He simply would not have had enough MAJOR LEAGUE experience to perform at that level.  Maybe in 1985, maybe 1986 they would have felt comfortable.  

[USAFChief]

Of course you are tired of the history lesson. AS far as lunacy, what is lunacy is pretending that this organization is going to sign the level of free agents or make the high impact trade that will suddenly create a team that is a true contender.

 

And, as far as lunacy, this worked in 1987, extended in 1991, and worked in the M-M days in devloping that team.

 

What hasn't happened in this rebuild is the total commitment to the young talent. Even in 2015, the year the team brought up some of that "era's" main prospects: Sano, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler all of these players started 2015 in the minor leagues (Kepler only got 7 PAs late in the season). Instead, the team plugged in guys like 30 yo Shane Robinson and 28 year old Jordan Schafer. The players that the FO deemed "not ready", at least to start the year, were so much better than the players they played. THAT IS LUNACY.

 

Again, while we have brought up young players, the team hasn't shown a commitment to them. We had managers taht were not good fits for the young players. Instead of giving our own internal prospects up we brought in every waiver wire misfit in the league.

 

At this point, the team should have a much better understanding of the potential of their current prospects than what they do. What do I mean by that? Take an example of Fernando Romero (but you can plug in Gonsalves, Stewart, Vasquez, etc). Do we ahve a firm understanding if he is a going to be a solid picther in the majors? Obviously not. But then, he is already 23 years old. He has pitched in 11 major league games with a 4.69 ERA.

 

History lesson? Compare the treatment of Romero with how the Twins handled Frank VIola. Viola was drafted in 1981. He went directly to AA ball his draft year and pitched 97 innings. He starter the 1982 season in AAA but made only 8 starts there before being called up. Guess waht, he wasn't ready. In 1982 Viola had a 5.21 ERA over 126 innings. But the Twins stuck with him. IN 1983 as a 23 year old, the same age as Romero, Viola sucked. But the Twins sent him out to the mound for 210 innings even though his ERA was 5.49.

 

THAT IS COMMITMENT TO REBUILDING. The current Twins FO does not have done that. THey would have dumped Viola back down to the minors in 1982 and started him down in the minors again in 1983. "He wasn't ready". But, what is obvious, is that the current (and previous) FO approach would have meant he wasn't ready in 1984 either when he placed 6th in the Cy Young voting. He simply would not have had enough MAJOR LEAGUE experience to perform at that level. Maybe in 1985, maybe 1986 they would have felt comfortable.

 

There is zero benefit to bringing up players before they are ready. In addition to the obvious possible stunting of development and losing baseball, you dont even save money.

 

Player X’s salary structure is pretty much the same whether their rookie season is at 19 or 24. There are three years of serfdom, followed by three years of arbitration. The only question is, when do you start the clock?

 

And by pushing off their rookie season, you actually stand a chance of getting them cheaply through their prime, rather than paying them to learn, and then watching them hit free agency at 27 or 28.

 

Minor leaguers should always have to force their way into a big league lineup. Always.

[yarnivek1972]

Of course you are tired of the history lesson. AS far as lunacy, what is lunacy is pretending that this organization is going to sign the level of free agents or make the high impact trade that will suddenly create a team that is a true contender.

 

And, as far as lunacy, this worked in 1987, extended in 1991, and worked in the M-M days in devloping that team.

 

What hasn't happened in this rebuild is the total commitment to the young talent. Even in 2015, the year the team brought up some of that "era's" main prospects: Sano, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler all of these players started 2015 in the minor leagues (Kepler only got 7 PAs late in the season). Instead, the team plugged in guys like 30 yo Shane Robinson and 28 year old Jordan Schafer. The players that the FO deemed "not ready", at least to start the year, were so much better than the players they played. THAT IS LUNACY.

 

Again, while we have brought up young players, the team hasn't shown a commitment to them. We had managers taht were not good fits for the young players. Instead of giving our own internal prospects up we brought in every waiver wire misfit in the league.

 

At this point, the team should have a much better understanding of the potential of their current prospects than what they do. What do I mean by that? Take an example of Fernando Romero (but you can plug in Gonsalves, Stewart, Vasquez, etc). Do we ahve a firm understanding if he is a going to be a solid picther in the majors? Obviously not. But then, he is already 23 years old. He has pitched in 11 major league games with a 4.69 ERA.

 

History lesson? Compare the treatment of Romero with how the Twins handled Frank VIola. Viola was drafted in 1981. He went directly to AA ball his draft year and pitched 97 innings. He starter the 1982 season in AAA but made only 8 starts there before being called up. Guess waht, he wasn't ready. In 1982 Viola had a 5.21 ERA over 126 innings. But the Twins stuck with him. IN 1983 as a 23 year old, the same age as Romero, Viola sucked. But the Twins sent him out to the mound for 210 innings even though his ERA was 5.49.

 

THAT IS COMMITMENT TO REBUILDING. The current Twins FO does not have done that. THey would have dumped Viola back down to the minors in 1982 and started him down in the minors again in 1983. "He wasn't ready". But, what is obvious, is that the current (and previous) FO approach would have meant he wasn't ready in 1984 either when he placed 6th in the Cy Young voting. He simply would not have had enough MAJOR LEAGUE experience to perform at that level. Maybe in 1985, maybe 1986 they would have felt comfortable.

Maybe if the Twins had held him in the minors longer they wouldn’t have had to trade him in 1989 and maybe he could have been the anchor of the 1991 season instead of Morris. Viola made less in 1991 than Morris btw.

[mlhouse]

 

There is zero benefit to bringing up players before they are ready. In addition to the obvious possible stunting of development and losing baseball, you dont even save money.

Player X’s salary structure is pretty much the same whether their rookie season is at 19 or 24. There are three years of serfdom, followed by three years of arbitration. The only question is, when do you start the clock?

And by pushing off their rookie season, you actually stand a chance of getting them cheaply through their prime, rather than paying them to learn, and then watching them hit free agency at 27 or 28.

Minor leaguers should always have to force their way into a big league lineup. Always.

 

The cheap Twins management has convinced you of this.  

[mlhouse]

 

Maybe if the Twins had held him in the minors longer they wouldn’t have had to trade him in 1989 and maybe he could have been the anchor of the 1991 season instead of Morris. Viola made less in 1991 than Morris btw.

 

AS I stated in the response right above, that is because the Twins ownership is cheap.  Always has been.  Always will be.  THey are so worried about how much they will pay a player that they don't care if the player would be successful.  IF the Twins would have held him in the minors a couple of more years, then they would not have had their pitcher at the top of their rotation ready to win the 1987 World Series MVP. 

They could have followed the blueprint they do with our current prospects.  In 1981 he would have started out at Elizabethton and probably moved up to Cedar Rapids A ball.  1982, where Viola started in AAA and moved to the majors, he would have repeated A ball with perhaps a promotion to A+ Ft Myers.  In 1983, maybe they get cocky and let him move to AA (where Viola debuted as a professional player) but in 1984 he should start the season there and maybe move up to AAA.  Then, AAA for sure in 1985 with perhpas a quick hook call up during the season.  Same for 1986 and maybe someday he gets enough experience in 1987.

 

And, instead of developing as a team and becoming competitive as early as 1984, such a process would have stretched hte rebuilding out over 5-8 years.  

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by mlhouse

[yarnivek1972]

AS I stated in the response right above, that is because the Twins ownership is cheap. Always has been. Always will be. THey are so worried about how much they will pay a player that they don't care if the player would be successful. IF the Twins would have held him in the minors a couple of more years, then they would not have had their pitcher at the top of their rotation ready to win the 1987 World Series MVP.

How can you possibly know that? Maybe he comes up in 1984 and does as well as he actually did in 1985, 86 and beyond.

[Lonestar]

 

The cheap Twins management has convinced you of this.  

No. Carlos Gomez, Aaron Hicks, and Byron Buxton have convinced some of us.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Lonestar

[DocBauer]

Not speaking to any individual or post, but just an overview what's been stated and discussed here regarding the re-build, early promotions, going for the rebuild hard, etc.

 

I don't think it's entirely fair, or accurate, to compare the re-build that lead to the '87 WS team, (which took 4-5 years to accomplish BTW). It was 30 years ago and ,was to a ton of losses and bad baseball early on. And most of those players jumped from AA ball, not A ball, and some at least sniffed AAA. There are similarities with the build of the '91 WS team, but the point doesn't have to belabored.

 

The current re-build is actually stretching over 2 different FO, which complicates the process somewhat. But that being said, the Twins HAVE been quite aggressive with promotions. Just taking a few minutes to check current ages, MLB service time, milb service time, and especially AAA service time shows that Sano, Rosario, Kepler, Buxton, Polanco and Berrios spent 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 years in the minors. All have between 2 1/2 to 4 years of actual MLB service time. All are between 24 and 27yo.

 

Berrios, combined over a couple season's, and the youngest of the group, has 1 1/2 season's of AAA ball under his belt. INCLUDING his 2018 time there, Buxton has a little over half a season of AAA time. Rosario has about 1/2 a season there split over 2 years. Polanco also has about 1/2 season, total, split over different years. Kepler has a grand total of 30 games played at the AAA level. And Sano has a TOTAL of 17 games at the AAA level, including 9 games in 2018.

 

To say the Twins haven't been aggressive is just not accurate. There have been demotion and rehab time. But these guys all pretty much skipped AAA and were at least auditioned at the ML level from AA.

 

Romero is 23. But he also missed parts of 2 full seasons, like Thorpe and Graterol behind him. And he only had what, 2 or 3 starts at Rochester before they brought him up? (Yes, one could make the argument that he should have stuck longer or been brought up again).

 

On the milb side of things, ready or not, Gordon got half a season at Rochester. Thorpe finished there. Vasquez reached the majors from A ball. Moya' s first jump was from AA. Rooker spent his first full pro season at AA. Khiriloff and Lewis each got a half season of high A in their first full pro seasons. There is nothing passive taking place here, just not the results...yet...that we all want. But even in the previously mentioned re-build years, there was much struggle before achievement.

[DocBauer]

The cheap Twins management has convinced you of this.

 

Sorry, but I have to step up on my soapbox for this one.

 

This is a perception, IMO, that lingers back over 30 years ago to the Griffith days. And rightfully so. As well as the Metrodome days when thjngs were still tight. At one point, back in the day, Kirby Puckett was signed to the richest contract in MLB history by the Pohlad's. I believe it was for something like $2M per before being eclipsed a short time later, I want to say by Ricky Henderson. In either 2010 or 2011, I believe, ownership stepped up for a then team record payroll to make a push because they believed they bad a real chance. (Do we need to bring up the Mauer signing again?). Believing in the strong finish of 2017, management again set a record payroll to augment the 2018 roster in hopes of a push. Depressed market or not, they also made a big push for Darvish before the Cubs upped the ante.

 

Have there been some moves they didn't make that frustrated me over the years? Absolutely! Hunter and Santana come to mind. Though, to be both accurate and fair, those were before Target Field. Ownership has built a sparkling complex in Ft Myers, invested in foreign academies, set a payroll record in 2018, have taken on and eaten portions kf contracts recently to make trade moves, have just committed a nice chunk of change for the Elizabethton upgrades, and are eating the last 2 years of Monitor's contract so the new FO can go a different direction.

 

Are they spending money hand over fist to jump all in the FA market and just buy the top talent available? Well...we don't know yet, but I doubt it. But to just blanket state that they are cheap seems pretty inaccurate to me.

[Major League Ready]

 

The cheap Twins management has convinced you of this.  

 

I can't remember for sure but I am pretty sure I posted the summary of team profitability I put together a couple years ago. based on 10 years of Forbes reports. MLB teams are ptetty darn consistent in terms of spending / profitability and the Twins have no more profitable than other teams. Your position is uniformed. If you really are think differently than show us evidence. You can Google the reports year by year just as I did and compile a summary. This is tiresome and parochial thinking. No kidding a team with a couple hundred million less revenue does not spend like tome revenue teams. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Major Leauge Ready

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Talk to us about two guys in our system since Hrbek that were promoted like that and became part of a "nucleus" that won?

Since Hrbek?

 

Puckett, Knoblauch.

[USAFChief]

The cheap Twins management has convinced you of this.

I agree Twins ownership has been cheap in recent decades. But that has zero to do with my point.

[mlhouse]

 

Not speaking to any individual or post, but just an overview what's been stated and discussed here regarding the re-build, early promotions, going for the rebuild hard, etc.

I don't think it's entirely fair, or accurate, to compare the re-build that lead to the '87 WS team, (which took 4-5 years to accomplish BTW). It was 30 years ago and ,was to a ton of losses and bad baseball early on. And most of those players jumped from AA ball, not A ball, and some at least sniffed AAA. There are similarities with the build of the '91 WS team, but the point doesn't have to belabored.

The current re-build is actually stretching over 2 different FO, which complicates the process somewhat. But that being said, the Twins HAVE been quite aggressive with promotions. Just taking a few minutes to check current ages, MLB service time, milb service time, and especially AAA service time shows that Sano, Rosario, Kepler, Buxton, Polanco and Berrios spent 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 years in the minors. All have between 2 1/2 to 4 years of actual MLB service time. All are between 24 and 27yo.

Berrios, combined over a couple season's, and the youngest of the group, has 1 1/2 season's of AAA ball under his belt. INCLUDING his 2018 time there, Buxton has a little over half a season of AAA time. Rosario has about 1/2 a season there split over 2 years. Polanco also has about 1/2 season, total, split over different years. Kepler has a grand total of 30 games played at the AAA level. And Sano has a TOTAL of 17 games at the AAA level, including 9 games in 2018.

To say the Twins haven't been aggressive is just not accurate. There have been demotion and rehab time. But these guys all pretty much skipped AAA and were at least auditioned at the ML level from AA.

Romero is 23. But he also missed parts of 2 full seasons, like Thorpe and Graterol behind him. And he only had what, 2 or 3 starts at Rochester before they brought him up? (Yes, one could make the argument that he should have stuck longer or been brought up again).

On the milb side of things, ready or not, Gordon got half a season at Rochester. Thorpe finished there. Vasquez reached the majors from A ball. Moya' s first jump was from AA. Rooker spent his first full pro season at AA. Khiriloff and Lewis each got a half season of high A in their first full pro seasons. There is nothing passive taking place here, just not the results...yet...that we all want. But even in the previously mentioned re-build years, there was much struggle before achievement.

 

That Twins era team was competitive within 2 years but not quite good enough.  So, while there was struggle, the core gained experience and it takes time to find the players that are not good enough. This is one of the key issues in rebuilding.

 

WHy is that a key?  Because if you take too much time gettting a player up to the major league level that cannot play, it takes that much time to move on from him.

 

Like I said, Lenny Faedo was the shortstop of that group.  He was the TWins first round pick in 1978.  He started his draft season as a 18 year old in Elizabethton.  Then moved to AA as a 19 year old and played as a 20 year old there too, but was a late season call up as a 20 year old.  In 1981 he was in AAA and 1982 started for teh Twins.  By 1983 it was apparent he wasn't going to hit enough so he was phased out.    But then, the Twins were starting to phase in another 21 year old SS in Greg Gagne.

 

If the Twins follow the "Twins Way",  Faedo hasn't even reached the majors before Gagne established himself in the Twins lineup.

 

One interesting note about Gagne to show the differences in organizational thought.  When the Twins acquired him as a 20 year old from the Yankees early in 1982 (Gagne had only played 1 game), Gagne was in A+ Florida State League.  The Twins immediately promoted him to AA.  Of all the Twins trades acquiring minor leaugers in the most recent years I have never seen that happen.

 

AS far as the claims that the reason these methods are to far in the past, notice that in that argument there isn't any evidence presented.  It is a long time ago, therefore it isn't the same.  But, I argue that baseball development is still essentially the same in 1987 as it was 30 years later.  The baseball draft is still essentially the same particularly with what players can be drafted.  The minor league system is virtually the same with the only difference in Twins structure is that they established a low level rookie affiliate in the Gulf Coast League in 1989 (this rookie league was in existence since 1964 but the Twins probably did not have an affiliate to save cost).

 

Regardless, as I have pointed out over and over again, the critical thing that my argument has in its favor is that the "Twins Way" has failed and put us in the spot we are in.

 

a.)The players are very slowly promoted through the system in a conservative, step-wise process. Yet, when most of them reach the majors they are not prepared for the competition level. 

 

b.)  Even though this team has been struggling and clearly in rebuilding mode the team has not committed to bringing in a manager to work with young players.  In fact, they stayed with Ron Gardenhire for four 90+ loss seasons despite the obvious lack of ability to develop young players.  

 

c.)  When the unprepared Twins prospects arrive at the MLB level, the Twins put them on a short leash and instead of working with those players, they send them back.  We are not talking about "young" prospects either.  Fernando Romero isn't a 20 year old player.  He is 23.  Bring him up, he runs into a little bit of struggle.  So, they send him back.  Romero is a pitcher some have ranked as the #1 Twins prospect.  He has a minor league career ERA of 3.02 and has been successful at every level in the minors.  Yet, they have zero patience with him. 

 

An even better example of this phenomena this season is Willians Astudillo.  I get he isn't a prospect, but when he was first called up he hit ok and played all over the field, including one of the worst innings of pitching I have ever seen!  But, when Bobby Wilson could play again the FO preferred his 35 year old .523 OPS rather than see is Astudillo would be a guy that could contribute to this team going forward.  Why not see if he can that weird utility guy.  And the joke was on them when they recalled him and WIllians hit .355 with an OPS of .887.  Sample size?  Sure.  BUT WOULDNT IT BE NICE TO KNOW IF THIS WAS JUST A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE FLUKE????  They found time for 151 PAs for Bobby Wilson, 205 PAs for Logan Forsythe, 109 for Ryan LaMarre, 67 for Gregorio Petit, 54 for Johnny Field, 34 for Chris Giminez, 21 for Taylor Motter, and 8 for Juan Graterol.   Everyone knows that their poor hitting isn't a fluke.  But, that is the "Twins Way", play the known medicorities (at best) rather than risk playing a guy that could potentially be a player you can use in the future.  

 

When you look at it this way, it is very difficult to be a fan of this team.

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The path is pretty clear.

 

Commit to rebuild.  The Twins are just wasting everyone's time if Lewis, Kirilloff, Rooker, and Nick Gordon are not in the everyday lineup next season.  Add LaMonte Wade, Luis Arraez, and Willians Astudillio with them around the remaining younger players on our roster.

 

Sure, that team isn't "ready" but the point because not all of those guys are going ot makeit in the majors but we need to find out as soon as possible who will and who will not.

 

Save our financial resources because the better players from this group will need to be signed going forward and we will need to make deals, both trades and free agents, to fill in the holes once this core gets competitive.

 

Otherwise, we are just fooling ourselves.  In this market (which isn't just the size of the market) we cannot build a team via free agent signings and big time trades.  It needs to be done by creating a core group of players from players acquired young, smartly developing those players, and making astute choices in players to fill in around those players. 

 

This is how the 1987 team was built, and extended to the 1991 team. This is also how the mid-2000's M and M team was built.  And, if we are to ever again have competitive major league baseball in Minnesota, how the next team needs to be built.

You are right about the mid-200s team. Seems like most of the 2002 ALCS players made their MLB debuts before getting any significant time in the upper minors. A lot of times they made their debuts and were optioned back down. They also had chemistry, which the 2017 did and the 2018 did not.

 

I am in favor of early promotions but also factor what is best for the player. We should see Rooker early next season. If Gordon has another strong minor league start, promote him (or trade him, as I've been saying for several offseasons). You can always send them back down, and in Gordon's case, will probably need to. They think Kiriloff still needs more time in the minors. We should expect to see Lewis around June 2020 as his timetable and production compares nicely with Correa and Lindor. Except for Lewis, in general I agree with you now that some of our old timers are gone.

[ewen21]

 

Since Hrbek?

Puckett, Knoblauch.

Puckett did get some time in AAA and Knoblauch spent a full year in AA, but OK.

 

Still not on the same level as penciling in KIriloff and Lewis as starters in 2019

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Puckett did get some time in AAA and Knoblauch spent a full year in AA, but OK.

 

Still not on the same level as penciling in KIriloff and Lewis as starters in 2019

no, but Lewis might be closer than he appears (if he stays healthy, of course). The Lewis comps with Correa and Lindor are pretty good. We should see Rooker in 2019.

[ewen21]

 

no, but Lewis might be closer than he appears (if he stays healthy, of course). The Lewis comps with Correa and Lindor are pretty good. We should see Rooker in 2019.

Too soon for me.

[Major League Ready]

 

Then why not trade Gibson at this point? I don't know what you mean by moderate, but he's a top 20-30 starting pitcher right now....that has real value.

 

And, go big for some of us is add 1 legit player this year, to a longer than 1 year deal.....then see what happens next year.

 

Mike, I might be under estimating the return on Gibson. He only has one year of control and he produced 2.8 WAR. That’s not the kind of difference maker that teams are willing to give up top type prospects to acquire. With everyone clamoring (me included) for difference makers I don’t see the point. It makes more sense to extend him. If they are unable, ok, go ahead and test the trade waters.

 

I also don’t see this team as being positioned to rebuild. We don’t have the types of veteran players that would allow us to acquire top talent. It just does not make sense to give up on the guys we have just yet. They have too much potential and waiting a year is not going to have any impact on the duration of the rebuild.

 

What do you or anyone else think Gibson would bring on the trade market? I prefer an extension but I can see your point if they were able to get a great return.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'd like to see Gibson stick around. He is not only a viable starter now, but with the other guys gone he has become the union rep and De facto clubhouse leader (at least for now).

[Mike Sixel]

 

Mike, I might be under estimating the return on Gibson. He only has one year of control and he produced 2.8 WAR. That’s not the kind of difference maker that teams are willing to give up top type prospects to acquire. With everyone clamoring (me included) for difference makers I don’t see the point. It makes more sense to extend him. If they are unable, ok, go ahead and test the trade waters.

 

I also don’t see this team as being positioned to rebuild. We don’t have the types of veteran players that would allow us to acquire top talent. It just does not make sense to give up on the guys we have just yet. They have too much potential and waiting a year is not going to have any impact on the duration of the rebuild.

 

What do you or anyone else think Gibson would bring on the trade market? I prefer an extension but I can see your point if they were able to get a great return.

 

I also prefer an extension at this point.....but if they can't do that and they don't add a big time bat and SP, I'd deal him. I'd guess he returns a top 50 - 75 talent, give or take. Kind of depends on who signs who this off season.

 

I'd be aiming for C, 3B, starting pitcher type (who clearly has to be more than a year or two away).

[Jham]

Then I either read it 100% wrong, or your post isn't as clear as you think...because it read like don't promote guys faster.....at least to me.

That's not incorrect. We're looking at the same issue from separate views. I see your argument as a little too "get younger just for the sake of getting younger" for my taste.

 

I happen to think, regardless of league trends, the age aspect, on both ends, is really about maximizing each player's productive window under their rookie contract. This would lend itself to some players, flame throwers, wipe out sliders, elite speed guys to debut sooner. It might also lend itself to a patient approach with fringier types who may develop late. The Twins have just had an abundance of fringe types. The goal is to have the player under control for as many peak years as possible.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jham

[mlhouse]

 

Puckett did get some time in AAA and Knoblauch spent a full year in AA, but OK.

 

Still not on the same level as penciling in KIriloff and Lewis as starters in 2019

 

Basically.  Kent Hrbek was a 17th round draft pick in 1978.  He got 79 Rookie level plate appearances in 1979.  One full year of A in 1980 and one full year of A+ in 1981.  He was promoted directly from A+ to the Twins late in 1981 and played the entire season in 1982 as a major league player.  At 24 years of age he had 1,881 plate appearances and was the runner up for the 1984 MVP award.   Using the "Twins Way" logic, he might have just been given his initial chance in 1984.  

 

Puckett had some time in AAA, but he was drafted in the 1982 January phase of the draft.   He played that draft year in Rookie, 1983 in A+, and started 1984 in AAA before starting his iconic career with the Twins (I can still recall listening to that game on the radio in my dorm room).  Again, using the Twins approach of today, Puckett would have been no where near the majors by 1984.

 

Knoblauch pretty much the same story.  Drafted in 1989 and played draft year in A and A+.  Then first full season in AA for 1990.  Then, started with the Twins in 1991.  Again, if Knoblauch was a current Twins prospect he would have started at Elizabethton and probably got promoted to A near end of season.  Then he would have repeated A with a call up to A+.  Then a season of AA, and at least a partial season in AAA.  

 

I guess being rushed through the minors killed these players career.   

[yarnivek1972]

Of course, part of the reason why Hrbek wasn’t promoted to AA was because they had this stud hitter that they were transitioning to first baseman there.

 

Surely you remember Scott Ullger.

 

1981 was his THIRD FULL season in AA.

[DocBauer]

Basically.  Kent Hrbek was a 17th round draft pick in 1978.  He got 79 Rookie level plate appearances in 1979.  One full year of A in 1980 and one full year of A+ in 1981.  He was promoted directly from A+ to the Twins late in 1981 and played the entire season in 1982 as a major league player.  At 24 years of age he had 1,881 plate appearances and was the runner up for the 1984 MVP award.   Using the "Twins Way" logic, he might have just been given his initial chance in 1984.  

 

Puckett had some time in AAA, but he was drafted in the 1982 January phase of the draft.   He played that draft year in Rookie, 1983 in A+, and started 1984 in AAA before starting his iconic career with the Twins (I can still recall listening to that game on the radio in my dorm room).  Again, using the Twins approach of today, Puckett would have been no where near the majors by 1984.

 

Knoblauch pretty much the same story.  Drafted in 1989 and played draft year in A and A+.  Then first full season in AA for 1990.  Then, started with the Twins in 1991.  Again, if Knoblauch was a current Twins prospect he would have started at Elizabethton and probably got promoted to A near end of season.  Then he would have repeated A with a call up to A+.  Then a season of AA, and at least a partial season in AAA.  

 

I guess being rushed through the minors killed these players career.

 

Puckett turned out to be a special player. A HOF player. Hrbek, and I'll include Gaetti here as well, turned out to be outstanding players. Launder was good, but not great. Same with Engle and Bush. Viola, who you also previously mentioned, stunk initially before turning out to be outstanding. There was also mention of Faedo. I'd even throw in Reed, and I believe there was a catcher by name of Baker, if I can trust my memory.

 

Regardless, some top players were promoted aggressively. Agreed. Some turned out. Some didn't. And they took 5 years to achieve a winning record, with trades and signings to do so. And the second WS team was built on some of these players, plus Knoblauch and other outside additions. Knoblauch was moved aggressively, no doubt.

 

But help me here, I'm really trying to understand your point. Sano, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, Polanco and Berrios were promoted pretty aggressively throughout the system. Despite some time in AAA, most notably Berrios, most jumped almost completely from AA. Most recently, Rooker spent his first professional season at AA and is ticketed for the AFL when healthy. Lewis and Khiriloff spent half their first full pro season's at high A ball.

 

I guess I'm just trying to understand your point. Are the Twins still not being aggressive enough with these prospects?