Article: A Tale of Two Paths for Twins

[TheLeviathan]

 

Goldschmidt is likely available too.

 

Package deal? Take on the entire Greinke salary, in return for a lesser price on Goldschmidt. I think AZ is going to have trouble finding a taker for Greinke unless they eat some salary.

 

I agree, though I don't think you could do that with Goldschmidt.

 

But maybe Jake Lamb?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Correct me if I am wrong but don't they have Pollock as a FA this year and Goldschmidt next year and Peralta is going to get a nice raise in arbitration and will be a FA soon.  Isnt Greinke due something like 35 million each of the next three years?  I could see Arizona wanting to get out of that salary to pay their other guys.

 

And they're likely to lose Corbin this year as well.

 

I see them dumping Grienke and trading Goldschmidt as a full rebuild signal.  

[nicksaviking]

I'd take Greinke, but he's still got a limited no-trade clause and I think he desperately wanted out of KC and Milwaukee so Minnesota may be on the list if his distaste was for the Midwest. From my understanding typical NT clauses allow the player to pick new teams each year, so if the Twins do want him, they may want to stay out of any and all rumors until he makes his selections for his list and cross their fingers they don't make the cut.

 

I've said before that I'd like to keep 1B open for platooning as a quasi-2nd DH spot. But Goldschmidt? Yes please, I'll do that plan instead.

 

I don't know if AZ is going the rebuild route, but if they are, I'd rather acquire Nick Ahmed as a 1-2 year stop-gap SS than any of the free agents.

 

Also, I'd have interest in former Diamondback and current free agent AJ Pollock. The Twins have the outfield depth to cover the 40 games he's going to miss due to injury. He's pretty dang good when he's healthy.

[Mr. Brooks]

Ted, you appear to be forgetting about the $5.95 million that the Twins are still on the hook for Hughes next year.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

I for one don't see the Twins as having as much money to spend as you figure for the coming year i betting they will have salary figure of total 75 million to spend not what we spent last year it will fall back closer to year before spending.. The construction of this team salary has some big questions to be answered. First 3 of the 5 projected starters are in there last year of arbortation for the coming year so what are Twins plan for the future on pitching. This group of Gibson, Ordorizzi, and Pineda all have big questions on their future as big league starters but if they are not signed by opening day very likely all three would go FA at the end of next year. That leaves the Twins with only option is to trade them an next year trade dead line unless were really contending and then very likely we loose them to Free Agency. The Twins have glaring needs at ss or second base for next year which I believe will cost them at least 4million. Then we will need to have either a 3rd baseman or first baseman which could cost at least between 5 to 8 million if were talking quality players. Then it comes to our bull pen if they truly want to improve this team some money is going to be needed to be spent here. They should being looking for shut down closer in my mind that would be first thing to fix to gaining most wins for this club. Look at how many losses we had in walk off losses last year. If we had a bull pen that would have shut down other teams and we had won 75% of those games this team would have exceeded last years wins. But also with closer they could use at least another arm to fill in with our existing bull pen. Lastly this all based on assumption that Buxton and Sano can turn into all stars they were two years ago. If this doesn't happen were looking at a team again that will be 78 wins at best plus we will again have traded away a lot of the core of this team again especially starting pitching. I think this window on this group of players will be determined by next year performance and if they can't turn the corner I believe like I have thought all along were in reset again waiting for the next wave of players to arrive. This front office has never believed what was in place here and its why they haven't invested in these players or added to this team even when they have been contending or close enough to make a run. Also thinking were going to sign one of the top free agents next year isn't going to happen there not going to come to team that has this many questions and is in this state of flux. Were going to have hard time to even sign quality free agent to come here and for sure the Twins will never over pay to get a player I believe ownership has demonstrated that over years on there signing of Free Agents.  

 

4 million for a middle infielder and 5 for a 1B? Spend this kind of money and you will get more of the same C level talent they always go for. If this is what they want to do, just fill in with guys already in your system that don't cost anything. That or go big. 

[Minny505]

I'm curious why the TD crowd thinks Machado is so unrealistic. Sure, the Phillies seem like the obvious fit and they have more payroll space than us so I'd say it's a slam dunk. But if they decide they want to focus on Harper and pitching, who else has the need and dollars?

 

Due to having their SS/3B needs filled, the Dodgers, Yankees, Astros and Nats are likely out. They have other needs that are a priority. The Red Sox are so far past the highest luxury tax line that they can't even see it.

 

The Cubs may be in play, but the rumor is that they are going hard at Harper. The Cardinals might make a move for him as they basically have the same backstory as the Twins when it comes to signing someone of his caliber. I don't see any other team really wanting him.

 

After that you're getting into speculation on teams like the Blue Jays, Mariners or Mets, none of which seems likely.

 

The market for Machado from the top market teams just isn't there this offseason. This isn't the Harper market. The Twins, Phillies, Cubs and Cards are the only teams likely to be bidding on Machado in any meaningful way (caveat, Yanks trade Andujar, which seems less likely than the Twins signing Machado).

 

Yes, the Phillies are the leader in the clubhouse with a bullet, but I'd take even money on the Twins vs the other 28 teams at this point.

 

I feel like if we weren't jaded Ryan/Smith Twins fans we would see the Twins as a viable landing spot. Am I missing something?

[adorduan]

 

The Twins have the money to get free agents, there just isn't a lot to get once you get outside of Machado, Harper and Corbin. I'd love to get Corbin but the other 2 will be beyond what the Twins will pay. The other problem with any free agent is that the Twins weren't good 2 of the last 3 years and the free agents you really want proritize winning over marginal dollars. Let's face it, all of these guys will get big dollars. Why not take them from a winner that will get you into the playoffs with a chance?  That's why guys like Machado and Harper are more likely to be in New York, LA, Boston, Chicago (Cubs), etc. We're a year or two of winning away from being a good FA destination. It's not all about the money. 

 

Our better capital is young players with upside, particularly after the mid-season trades last year. We have some pieces that should have trade value or allow us to trade pre-existing pieces with trade value. My thoughts:

 

1) Trade as much minor league pitching as necessary not named Romero, Thorpe or Graterol for Realmuto. Include Romero if its nets you Realmuto to catch and Starlin Castro to play 2B. Use less but some of the minor league pitching for Castro if you can't get Realmuto.  Realmuto and Garver catch, and then DH or play 1B the days they don't catch. Astudillo is the 25th man or the AAA catcher and Castro is traded for prospects. 

 

If you exclude those guys, the Twins have nothing that would come close to getting Realmuto.

[Mike Sixel]

The Yankees aren't even close to out.......

[adorduan]

 

Of all the players listed as free agents, I'm only interested in premium prices for Machado and Corbin. I don't think we will get either, but either would make our team better.

 

What I don't want out of free agency is bargain shopping for guys with no real top end. So maybe you bargain hunt with Josh Donaldson because if he's healthy, maybe he has something left. But LeMahieu has had exactly one elite year (2016). Hard pass on him. Maybe Keuchel is worth looking at, but he's going to look to get paid big cash, and he's on the wrong side of 30 for me to want to pay a premium.

 

On the trade side, I'd call the Mets about their pitchers to see what the prospect asking price is. If Thor or DeGrom are available, I think you have to at least consider it.

 

You are not going to like the prospect price of Thor or DeGrom.

 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

I'm curious why the TD crowd thinks Machado is so unrealistic. 

 

I'll give you a hint. It starts with a "P" and sounds like "ohlads". LOL

[mlhouse]

The path is pretty clear.

 

Commit to rebuild.  The Twins are just wasting everyone's time if Lewis, Kirilloff, Rooker, and Nick Gordon are not in the everyday lineup next season.  Add LaMonte Wade, Luis Arraez, and Willians Astudillio with them around the remaining younger players on our roster.

 

Sure, that team isn't "ready" but the point because not all of those guys are going ot makeit in the majors but we need to find out as soon as possible who will and who will not.

 

Save our financial resources because the better players from this group will need to be signed going forward and we will need to make deals, both trades and free agents, to fill in the holes once this core gets competitive.

 

Otherwise, we are just fooling ourselves.  In this market (which isn't just the size of the market) we cannot build a team via free agent signings and big time trades.  It needs to be done by creating a core group of players from players acquired young, smartly developing those players, and making astute choices in players to fill in around those players. 

 

This is how the 1987 team was built, and extended to the 1991 team. This is also how the mid-2000's M and M team was built.  And, if we are to ever again have competitive major league baseball in Minnesota, how the next team needs to be built.

[mazeville]

I'll admit I have no sense of what the Twins should do this year. 

 

Spend? They have the money. But if Buxton and Sano stink again next year would that do any good?

 

Make trades? Sure. A couple of good trades would not be a bad idea, but if the Twins really do need to do some rebuilding would it be a wise option to trade prospects from a team that might need them?

 

Rebuild? What is Buxton comes roaring back next year?

 

Argh you just wish you knew whether Buxton would be a good player next year or not. It makes things so much more difficult. He really is a big, big difference maker. It doesn't help that several other players are question marks, too. 

[yarnivek1972]

The path is pretty clear.

 

Commit to rebuild. The Twins are just wasting everyone's time if Lewis, Kirilloff, Rooker, and Nick Gordon are not in the everyday lineup next season. Add LaMonte Wade, Luis Arraez, and Willians Astudillio with them around the remaining younger players on our roster.

 

Sure, that team isn't "ready" but the point because not all of those guys are going ot makeit in the majors but we need to find out as soon as possible who will and who will not.

 

Save our financial resources because the better players from this group will need to be signed going forward and we will need to make deals, both trades and free agents, to fill in the holes once this core gets competitive.

 

Otherwise, we are just fooling ourselves. In this market (which isn't just the size of the market) we cannot build a team via free agent signings and big time trades. It needs to be done by creating a core group of players from players acquired young, smartly developing those players, and making astute choices in players to fill in around those players.

 

This is how the 1987 team was built, and extended to the 1991 team. This is also how the mid-2000's M and M team was built. And, if we are to ever again have competitive major league baseball in Minnesota, how the next team needs to be built.

None of the players you list has had success above AA.

 

Bringing players to the MLB level when they will be overmatched is how the Twins found themselves in the situation they are in with Byron Buxton. Making that same mistake with 3-4 more young players would be fireable IMO.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'll admit I have no sense of what the Twins should do this year. 

 

Spend? They have the money. But if Buxton and Sano stink again next year would that do any good?

 

Make trades? Sure. A couple of good trades would not be a bad idea, but if the Twins really do need to do some rebuilding would it be a wise option to trade prospects from a team that might need them?

 

Rebuild? What is Buxton comes roaring back next year?

 

Argh you just wish you knew whether Buxton would be a good player next year or not. It makes things so much more difficult. He really is a big, big difference maker. It doesn't help that several other players are question marks, too. 

 

It might do good things in 2020....signing/trading for guys with 3-5 years of contract time left isn't JUST about next year......whether Buxton and Sano are good or not, they need to add talent that is around for more than 1 year.

[lukeduke1980]

 

 

 

Rebuild? What is Buxton comes roaring back next year?

 

Argh you just wish you knew whether Buxton would be a good player next year or not. It makes things so much more difficult. He really is a big, big difference maker. It doesn't help that several other players are question marks, too. 

I think the roster stays as is with a Jose Iglesias here or a relief pitcher there.  If Sano and Buxton again don't take off, then it's the 2021 plan, where we tank 2 more years for better draft picks plus pick up some talent for Gibson and Taylor Rogers along the way. 

[mlhouse]

 

None of the players you list has had success above AA.

Bringing players to the MLB level when they will be overmatched is how the Twins found themselves in the situation they are in with Byron Buxton. Making that same mistake with 3-4 more young players would be fireable IMO.

 

 

Kent Hrbek never played a game above A+ ball. Hrbek played a partial season of rookie ball,  then A as a 20 year old, A+ as a 21 and promoted to the majors.  

 

Eisenreich, who was in a way overmatched, went from A in 1981 to being hte starting CF in Minnesota in 1982.  He didn't even get a late season call up before his major league debut.  

 

Being "overmatched" isn't the worse thing for a developing player.   Instead, it is being properly coached and developed that counts.  The 1982 Minnesota Twins were overmatched.  They lost 102 games.  But, a few years later this was the core that won a world series.

 

I will take the losses from these developing young guys rather than this excuse of a major league team this front office will trot out their next year.  

[Jim Hahn]

Bringing up young guys who are overmatched is a bad idea on several levels. Making changes to your swing, approach,and other aspects of your game can be difficult enough in the minors against lesser competition in a less stressful situation. Trying to do that in the could be impossible for some players.

 

Another problem is starting the arbitration clock on players a year or two early when they won't contribute to winning and may more easily learn most of those lessons in the minors.

 

Players often have to learn certain things when they get to the majors and often pretty important changes have to be made. But forcing them to the majors before they have earned it is likely to do more harm than good.

 

Maybe it wouldn't of took 1982 twins 5 years to learn how to win if some of them had spent more time in the minors.

[Major League Ready]

 

The path is pretty clear.

 

Commit to rebuild.  The Twins are just wasting everyone's time if Lewis, Kirilloff, Rooker, and Nick Gordon are not in the everyday lineup next season.  Add LaMonte Wade, Luis Arraez, and Willians Astudillio with them around the remaining younger players on our roster.

 

Sure, that team isn't "ready" but the point because not all of those guys are going ot makeit in the majors but we need to find out as soon as possible who will and who will not.

 

Save our financial resources because the better players from this group will need to be signed going forward and we will need to make deals, both trades and free agents, to fill in the holes once this core gets competitive.

 

Otherwise, we are just fooling ourselves.  In this market (which isn't just the size of the market) we cannot build a team via free agent signings and big time trades.  It needs to be done by creating a core group of players from players acquired young, smartly developing those players, and making astute choices in players to fill in around those players. 

 

This is how the 1987 team was built, and extended to the 1991 team. This is also how the mid-2000's M and M team was built.  And, if we are to ever again have competitive major league baseball in Minnesota, how the next team needs to be built.

 

The highlighted part of your post is a reality many fans do not want to accept. We live in an instant gratification society. However, I also agree with Yarnivek that rushing players can be a disaster. We would not be giving up development time because they are not ready yet.

 

I would add that we have invested significantly in the current core and there are many examples of players that took time to develop. There is still hope for significant improvement from Buxton, Sano and Kepler and to a lesser degree with some other players. Why sell low in order to execute a plan to be bad for a few years when there really is no upside. Gibson is the only asset we could sell off at this point for a decent return and that return would be modest so why go there?

 

We have plenty holes to fill so fill them. If most of our numerous question marks perform well, great, we can all enjoy some good baseball. We could even make some mid-season acquisitions if we hit the lottery and every things comes together but it does not make sense to rebuild just yet or push all of our chips in just yet.

 

Someone is going to respond that you have to do one or another. Go big or go home, yada, yada. To them I say show me a realistic plan to build a team that can contend with Houston, Boston, and NY because leveraging our future to build a non-contender is the worst thing we could do given the strength of the teams at the top of the AL.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The highlighted part of your post is a reality many fans do not want to accept. We live in an instant gratification society. However, I also agree with Yarnivek that rushing players can be a disaster. We would not be giving up development time because they are not ready yet.

 

I would add that we have invested significantly in the current core and there are many examples of players that took time to develop. There is still hope for significant improvement from Buxton, Sano and Kepler and to a lesser degree with some other players. Why sell low in order to execute a plan to be bad for a few years when there really is no upside. Gibson is the only asset we could sell off at this point for a decent return and that return would be modest so why go there?

 

We have plenty holes to fill so fill them. If most of our numerous question marks perform well, great, we can all enjoy some good baseball. We could even make some mid-season acquisitions if we hit the lottery and every things comes together but it does not make sense to rebuild just yet or push all of our chips in just yet.

 

Someone is going to respond that you have to do one or another. Go big or go home, yada, yada. To them I say show me a realistic plan to build a team that can contend with Houston, Boston, and NY because leveraging our future to build a non-contender is the worst thing we could do given the strength of the teams at the top of the AL.

 

Then why not trade Gibson at this point? I don't know what you mean by moderate, but he's a top 20-30 starting pitcher right now....that has real value.

 

And, go big for some of us is add 1 legit player this year, to a longer than 1 year deal.....then see what happens next year.

[Thrylos]

 

Players like Paul Goldschmidt, Carlos Santana, and Justin Bour could all fill Minnesota’s presumed hole at first base.

 

Unless you are talking about the other Carlos Santana (Oye como va mi ritmo), I see no way that the Phillies, who are competing and are closer to the post-season than the Twins, trading him.

[mlhouse]

 

The highlighted part of your post is a reality many fans do not want to accept. We live in an instant gratification society. However, I also agree with Yarnivek that rushing players can be a disaster. We would not be giving up development time because they are not ready yet.

 

I would add that we have invested significantly in the current core and there are many examples of players that took time to develop. There is still hope for significant improvement from Buxton, Sano and Kepler and to a lesser degree with some other players. Why sell low in order to execute a plan to be bad for a few years when there really is no upside. Gibson is the only asset we could sell off at this point for a decent return and that return would be modest so why go there?

 

We have plenty holes to fill so fill them. If most of our numerous question marks perform well, great, we can all enjoy some good baseball. We could even make some mid-season acquisitions if we hit the lottery and every things comes together but it does not make sense to rebuild just yet or push all of our chips in just yet.

 

Someone is going to respond that you have to do one or another. Go big or go home, yada, yada. To them I say show me a realistic plan to build a team that can contend with Houston, Boston, and NY because leveraging our future to build a non-contender is the worst thing we could do given the strength of the teams at the top of the AL.

 

Has the Twins approach on their players worked?   

 

I think the claim of rushing a player is weak if you are properly set up for rebuilding.  The problem wth the Twins for the past 7 years is that htey have had managers that have had little time or patience to work with young players, all while the team was losing 90+ games a season. 

 

Keeping a guy like Gardenhire as manager, who literally played head games with our young players, from 2011 - 2014 on a team that lost 99, 96, 96, and 92 games (383 losses) was nothing but idiotic.  He was not the right manager to develop the young players that needed to develop under the major league system.  And, I would argue that although I think Paul Molitor would be a good manager on a veteran club, he wasn't the right guy either.  

 

To get to a competitive team we need to develop our players at the major league level and get them up as fast as possible.  

 

Again, you can argue that I am wrong all you want.  But the facts demonstrate otherwise.   We have watched nothing but terrible baseball since 2011.   We have had 5 seasons with at least 92 losses, versus two fluke seasons above 500 with the last one, 2017, brought about because we brought in high priced veteran players to just squeak above 500.  What we have done has failed, and failed miserably, and it is a mistake to continue down the same stupid path.

[Jham]

Has the Twins approach on their players worked?

 

I think the claim of rushing a player is weak if you are properly set up for rebuilding. The problem wth the Twins for the past 7 years is that htey have had managers that have had little time or patience to work with young players, all while the team was losing 90+ games a season.

 

Keeping a guy like Gardenhire as manager, who literally played head games with our young players, from 2011 - 2014 on a team that lost 99, 96, 96, and 92 games (383 losses) was nothing but idiotic. He was not the right manager to develop the young players that needed to develop under the major league system. And, I would argue that although I think Paul Molitor would be a good manager on a veteran club, he wasn't the right guy either.

 

To get to a competitive team we need to develop our players at the major league level and get them up as fast as possible.

 

Again, you can argue that I am wrong all you want. But the facts demonstrate otherwise. We have watched nothing but terrible baseball since 2011. We have had 5 seasons with at least 92 losses, versus two fluke seasons above 500 with the last one, 2017, brought about because we brought in high priced veteran players to just squeak above 500. What we have done has failed, and failed miserably, and it is a mistake to continue down the same stupid path.

Your path of building from our prospect core is really close to what we've been doing.

 

The facts show that the twins failure to rush players was a mistake? Which players were the Twins too slow with? Everytime fans get angry about not seeing so and so, they finally make it up and we see why they weren't fast tracked.

 

The game has changed so much from the days you refer to. Young talented players could come up with flaws in their game because pitch fx fangraphs and stat casts didn't instantly tell the entire league where the holes in your swing were before you even got the call. Specialty relievers and power pitchers didn't overwhelm young hitters with undeveloped approaches.

 

In today's game, almost nothing is more valuable than the young, talented, and cost-controlled star. If you start the clock early on your stars, you risk burning all your options on the late-bloomers, losing cost control a year early on super 2s, and getting to the trade/ play/extend zone before you have a great idea of the player you have. You risk losing the players peak seasons for no reason other than your own curiosity and impatience. And the ones who bust? How do you even know? Maybe they just weren't ready? But now you've killed the trade value of a nice chip. Look at Gonsalves. If we'd called up Gibby when fans wanted, we'd have traded him or dfad him before ever getting to his potential.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jham

[DocBauer]

Go ahead and blast me, or rake me over the proverbial hot coals, but I find it somewhat numerous when we talk about "rebuilding" the Twins.

 

This is already taking place.

 

The FO is still new, arguably entering their 2nd "FULL" off season as they weren't put in place until November of 2017. They were saddled with an incumbent manager they bad to keep, initially, but are now replacing. They have brought in various different scouts, analytic personnel, and coaches. Over the last season or so, they have also been revamping milb managers/coaches and instructional personal. Sano, Polanco, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, Berrios and others have all of 3 to 3 1/2 years of MLB experience. And there have been 2 quality drafts, from all early indications, plus a series of other moves to add to the milb talent/depth. Some of them rather creative, in fact.

 

Just because the FO...and the "uber cheap owners"...went out and made significant signings for a record payroll in 2018 to take a shot after a solid 2017 season doesn't mean the rebuild isn't still in place.

 

Yes, there a host of questions still in place. When and will Buxton and Sano start to get it together? Just how good could Kepler be if he just evens out his splits? Etc, etc. There is a TON of talent and potential to make up the core of this team. And there are more than Lewis and Khiriloff getting oh so tantalizing close! Those 2 guys, and guys like Rooker, Graterol, Thorpe and a few others could/should be up in 2019/2020. Rebuilds take a few seasons.

 

The question remains, what do you do NOW?

 

Unless you really believe you have a bunch of super talented athletes who are just lost or head cases who will never turn out...which I doubt...then you work a game plan to unlock all that potential and augment that roster.

 

1] Just because you got burned on the Reed signing, which looked great at the time, doesn't mean you shouldn't use FA to bring in a couple of top flight pen arms. You have the payroll to do so, and you keep your talented milb organization in place for promotion and future trades.

 

2] SS or 2B, sign or trade for someone to bring in to pair with Polanco. I'd bring in 2. Escobar and Iglesius, or Escobar and Castro, or someone similar. Please, no Forsythe or similar, unless He's just a bench piece. Financially and prospect-wise, you can also afford to do this without breaking the bank or mortgaging the future.

 

3] Bring in 1 good bat. And this is where I really see the value in a decent 1 or 2 year deal. Could be a FA or a salary dump deal for a rebuilding team. Again, you can afford it financially or prospect-wise. Someone who can allow you to put Polanco in the lead off spot, or a dangerous bat to hit there and keep Polanco in the 2-3 hole where he's looked so promising.

 

4] And I can't believe I'm saying this, but keep the status quo in your rotation unless there is an opportunity you just can't pass up. How can I say this? Berrios hasn't even reached his potential yet. Gibson is a legitimate #3 who pitches like a #2 at times. Odorizzi isn't special, but he's a solid #4 And an even better #5. Top young SP is a valuable commodity, and the Twins have some. Romero has a chance to be very good. We've already seen flashes. Graterol is younger, with even better stuff, but like Romero, has had to overcome some early injury issues and could be on a similar trajectory. Thorpe has also had the same early career issues, but is sound again and could/should see his debut in 2019. Like or don't like Gonsalves and his debut...I predicted he'd struggle at first...but you aren't a top prospect year after year and show the ability and adjust at each level for no reason. Just how good could Wells be, and how far away is he? The jury is absolutely still out and both Stewart and Littell. But there is something there to at least consider there, yes? And I haven't even mentioned Mejia!

 

Build up the infield. Build the bullpen around with what you have, and some other arms that Could still come through; Mejia, Moya, Vasquez, (Smeltzer?), Reed, Curtiss, De Jong and other starters who could convert. Might even find Magill wasn't all smoke and mirrors if he could harness his FB and slider on just a bit more consistent basis, or a guy like Drake might actually have found a repeatable delivery. (Both worthy of an invite, though not sure about a 40 man spot).

 

This is all very do-able while doing nothing to blow up the roster, trade away our very best prospects, or handcuff us in to an overwhelming payroll.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Your path of building from our prospect core is really close to what we've been doing.

The facts show that the twins failure to rush players was a mistake? Which players were the Twins too slow with? Everytime fans get angry about not seeing so and so, they finally make it up and we see why they weren't fast tracked.

The game has changed so much from the days you refer to. Young talented players could come up with flaws in their game because pitch fx fangraphs and stat casts didn't instantly tell the entire league where the holes in your swing were before you even got the call. Specialty relievers and power pitchers didn't overwhelm young hitters with undeveloped approaches.

In today's game, almost nothing is more valuable than the young, talented, and cost-controlled star. If you start the clock early on your stars, you risk burning all your options on the late-bloomers, losing cost control a year early on super 2s, and getting to the trade/ play/extend zone before you have a great idea of the player you have. You risk losing the players peak seasons for no reason other than your own curiosity and impatience. And the ones who bust? How do you even know? Maybe they just weren't ready? But now you've killed the trade value of a nice chip. Look at Gonsalves. If we'd called up Gibby when fans wanted, we'd have traded him or dfad him before ever getting to his potential.

 

Actually, the league is getting younger and younger, the exact opposite of what you are saying. why? Because teams are realizing that players start aging earlier than thought, and they are realizing none of them are finished products when they come up, so get them up earlier. Literally the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 

Stars are coming up earlier and earlier too........and no, don't try the "not everyone can be Harper or Trout" strawman. The stats are clear, the league is much younger now than it was.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Go ahead and blast me, or rake me over the proverbial hot coals, but I find it somewhat numerous when we talk about "rebuilding" the Twins.

This is already taking place.

The FO is still new, arguably entering their 2nd "FULL" off season as they weren't put in place until November of 2017. They were saddled with an incumbent manager they bad to keep, initially, but are now replacing. They have brought in various different scouts, analytic personnel, and coaches. Over the last season or so, they have also been revamping milb managers/coaches and instructional personal. Sano, Polanco, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, Berrios and others have all of 3 to 3 1/2 years of MLB experience. And there have been 2 quality drafts, from all early indications, plus a series of other moves to add to the milb talent/depth. Some of them rather creative, in fact.

Just because the FO...and the "uber cheap owners"...went out and made significant signings for a record payroll in 2018 to take a shot after a solid 2017 season doesn't mean the rebuild isn't still in place.

Yes, there a host of questions still in place. When and will Buxton and Sano start to get it together? Just how good could Kepler be if he just evens out his splits? Etc, etc. There is a TON of talent and potential to make up the core of this team. And there are more than Lewis and Khiriloff getting oh so tantalizing close! Those 2 guys, and guys like Rooker, Graterol, Thorpe and a few others could/should be up in 2019/2020. Rebuilds take a few seasons.

The question remains, what do you do NOW?

Unless you really believe you have a bunch of super talented athletes who are just lost or head cases who will never turn out...which I doubt...then you work a game plan to unlock all that potential and augment that roster.

1] Just because you got burned on the Reed signing, which looked great at the time, doesn't mean you shouldn't use FA to bring in a couple of top flight pen arms. You have the payroll to do so, and you keep your talented milb organization in place for promotion and future trades.

2] SS or 2B, sign or trade for someone to bring in to pair with Polanco. I'd bring in 2. Escobar and Iglesius, or Escobar and Castro, or someone similar. Please, no Forsythe or similar, unless He's just a bench piece. Financially and prospect-wise, you can also afford to do this without breaking the bank or mortgaging the future.

3] Bring in 1 good bat. And this is where I really see the value in a decent 1 or 2 year deal. Could be a FA or a salary dump deal for a rebuilding team. Again, you can afford it financially or prospect-wise. Someone who can allow you to put Polanco in the lead off spot, or a dangerous bat to hit there and keep Polanco in the 2-3 hole where he's looked so promising.

4] And I can't believe I'm saying this, but keep the status quo in your rotation unless there is an opportunity you just can't pass up. How can I say this? Berrios hasn't even reached his potential yet. Gibson is a legitimate #3 who pitches like a #2 at times. Odorizzi isn't special, but he's a solid #4 And an even better #5. Top young SP is a valuable commodity, and the Twins have some. Romero has a chance to be very good. We've already seen flashes. Graterol is younger, with even better stuff, but like Romero, has had to overcome some early injury issues and could be on a similar trajectory. Thorpe has also had the same early career issues, but is sound again and could/should see his debut in 2019. Like or don't like Gonsalves and his debut...I predicted he'd struggle at first...but you aren't a top prospect year after year and show the ability and adjust at each level for no reason. Just how good could Wells be, and how far away is he? The jury is absolutely still out and both Stewart and Littell. But there is something there to at least consider there, yes? And I haven't even mentioned Mejia!

Build up the infield. Build the bullpen around with what you have, and some other arms that Could still come through; Mejia, Moya, Vasquez, (Smeltzer?), Reed, Curtiss, De Jong and other starters who could convert. Might even find Magill wasn't all smoke and mirrors if he could harness his FB and slider on just a bit more consistent basis, or a guy like Drake might actually have found a repeatable delivery. (Both worthy of an invite, though not sure about a 40 man spot).

This is all very do-able while doing nothing to blow up the roster, trade away our very best prospects, or handcuff us in to an overwhelming payroll.

 

Help me understand how bringing in 1 year deals helps a team that lost 84 games be competitive? And if it doesn't, what is the point? I'm genuinely asking, what is the point of spending a lot of money on adding 1 hitter to this lineup?

 

As for the rotation, Odo, Pineda, and Gibson are free agents next year. How do you propose having a good rotation in 2020, if you don't add anyone this year? Even if you are lucky, and 2 new guys work out, you are still 2 starters short in 2020.

 

Again, I'm genuinely asking, because I don't see the same path.....

[Battle ur tail off]

 

 

And, go big for some of us is add 1 legit player this year, to a longer than 1 year deal.....then see what happens next year.

 

This is where I am at. It doesn't have to be this massive spending spree. I just want the Twins when they do decide to spend on free agent, to go after ones that will be difference makers. Same in trades. I don't like signing average to below average guys and wasting money on them when these spots can most likely be filled from within your system for little to nothing money-wise. 

[ewen21]

 

Kent Hrbek never played a game above A+ ball. Hrbek played a partial season of rookie ball,  then A as a 20 year old, A+ as a 21 and promoted to the majors.  

 

Eisenreich, who was in a way overmatched, went from A in 1981 to being hte starting CF in Minnesota in 1982.  He didn't even get a late season call up before his major league debut.  

 

Being "overmatched" isn't the worse thing for a developing player.   Instead, it is being properly coached and developed that counts.  The 1982 Minnesota Twins were overmatched.  They lost 102 games.  But, a few years later this was the core that won a world series.

 

I will take the losses from these developing young guys rather than this excuse of a major league team this front office will trot out their next year.  

Good lord am I sick and tired of this "history lesson"

 

Everyone knows the story, but go ahead and name two more guys who had the same thing happen.  Talk to us about two guys in our system since Hrbek that were promoted like that and became part of a "nucleus" that won?

 

It is the stupidest thing in the world to suggest the players you listed be called up to "take their lumps"

If the Twins did what you suggest, not only would the be the laughing stock of baseball, but they could also be ruining the development of some of these players.  Why?  Because it worked once in 1981!

 

Can we divorce ourselves from this lunacy once and for all?

[ewen21]

Sorry for the tone of that last response, but I just can't take hearing about "call up _______ and let him take his lumps"

 

We have done this already.  Recently, too.

When does it work?  Almost NEVER

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sorry for the tone of that last response, but I just can't take hearing about "call up _______ and let him take his lumps"

 

We have done this already.  Recently, too.

When does it work?  Almost NEVER

 

Seems to be working for the Nationals, and Astros, and others....maybe the problem is here, and not with the strategy itself.....

[Jham]

Actually, the league is getting younger and younger, the exact opposite of what you are saying. why? Because teams are realizing that players start aging earlier than thought, and they are realizing none of them are finished products when they come up, so get them up earlier. Literally the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 

Stars are coming up earlier and earlier too........and no, don't try the "not everyone can be Harper or Trout" strawman. The stats are clear, the league is much younger now than it was.

You know what a straw man argument is right? I never said the league isn't getting younger. That was in fact the very point of my post. Literally, I said nothing is more valuable in today's game than the young cost-controlled star.

 

These players afford the ability to sign top players and remain out of luxury tax liability. These players also allow small market teams to compete if they can get lucky. Maximizing cost-control, number of prime years vs developmental years, and trade value of guys the league loves more than you do is sound management.