Article: Hardball, the Twins, and Byron Buxton

[SwainZag]

 

I think the FO's argument about performance rings pretty hollow when they brought up Field. If Field's performance has been good enough to warrant a call-up, then so has Buxton's performance. If Buxton's wrist was hurt the FO should be fired for making him play in AAA with an injury. This was service time manipulation that puts 2022 ahead of 2019.

 

Field is not up because his performance is better than Buxton's.  Field is a warm body who will be gone as soon as the season ends because quite frankly the Twins have no other OF options in September of what is a non-contending season.

 

I think it's quite the overreaction to assume that anyone made Buxton play with a wrist injury and even bigger overreaction to say that the FO should be fired because of it.  For all we know it flared up in his last few game or last game he played in.  

[Doomtints]

 

Your 'facts' still boil down to if Buxton doesn't figure out a way to stay off the injured list and doesn't become an all-star, all this moaning and groaning about how unfair the Twins brass are won't matter because he won't be on the team in four years when this worrisome extra year of control kicks in.

 

Morality is how you treat the non-super star. Yes, it matters how they treat Buxton regardless of his future fame.

 

And if he pulls off that MVP year, that extra year of "control" means having to pay more to keep him. Salaries in the MLB go up drastically each and every year. Unless they don't want to keep him regardless of how well he performs?

Edited September 3, 2018 by Doomtints

[IndianaTwin]

1. I think the Profar comparison is interesting, and helpful. I hope Buxton has a similar response. There's no reason Profar needs to do this, but I think it would a classy move for him to reach out to Buxton and say, "I've been there -- go prove them wrong."

 

https://www.twincities.com/2018/09/02/byron-buxton-decision-becomes-sensitive-topic-for-twins-players/ 

 

2. I think Molitor's quotes make sense: “I’m going to have a nice conversation with him and share my perspective,” Molitor said Sunday in Arlington, Texas. “We’ll try to get to where the understanding and the respect remains. I don’t think it’s going to be a problem between Byron and (me).” and “Sometimes I think time is a really good ally for everybody involved. Ultimately it’s still going to be about him and his career and his performance and his health, all those things moving forward.”

 

We can bellyache about Molitor decisions, but one thing I think he does pretty well is remain under control, not throwing guys under the bus, and dealing with people one-on-one. I suspect there will be a hear-to-heart conversation between the two of them that we won't even hear about, and that's probably a good thing. 

 

3. I think Levine was a straight shooter with his comments. I paraphrase his message as, "We made a tough decision, and Byron and his agent have their right to be disappointed. We would be disappointed if he didn't want to come up to the majors. We still believe Byron can help us, so we are going to do our part to make it a good relationship going forward." And I applaud them for not trying to force such a conversation right now -- those chats rarely go well when they happen in the heat of the moment. 

 

 

 

[Monkeypaws]

After mulling this over for a minute or two, front office gets the win. IF Buxton is pissed off and gets an "I'll show you" attitude, they get and extra year. If he busts, sad story, but really this situation is not a make or break if Buxton is actually a MLB caliber player: a month of stat padding garbage time? Who cares?

 

If he shrivels because of this, well, that isn't the make-up of a champion(using some sports lingo there folks).

 

Also, what if they call him up and he fails miserably yet again? So much for momentum going into next season.

 

If I were the Twins, I'd find a failed prospect righty pitcher who's only tool was either a killer slider or curve and hire them to throw to Buxton and Sano all winter until they could recognize those pitches in their sleep. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Monkeypaws

[Mike Sixel]

 

1. This isn't a "service time issue" until he's not on the roster when the Triple-A season ends. All of this is merely conjecture and frankly rallying the troops for something that isn't even that likely.

 

2. True enough, the optics would be bad if Buxton isn't brought up. "Service time" is something to worry about with guys like Acuna/Bryant, not guys who have 300-plus MLB games with middling results. 

 

3. See above with how Ted's mind changes from day to day. I'm surprised more people haven't noticed this. 

 

4. Buxton has been away from the MLB team for three months and has played a grand total of 35 games -- one at Fort Myers, and 34 at Rochester. Let's look at the Rochester games, as he's hit a respectable .280/.336/.470 with the Red Wings.

• First 29 games: .234/.298/.405
• Last six games: .524/.545/.810

To say his numbers overall deserve a promotion is totally true, but dig deeper and it's easy to see he was still knocking off some rust.

 

5. The Twins already know if they're bringing Buxton up -- they just aren't saying publicly. There's no reason for them to. Again, until he's not up on that day, this is just sounding the alarms for no other reason than to draw page views.

 

Hey look, he's not coming up. Just like Austin has sat 25% of the time, and Belisle and Gimenez are playing since coming back. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I mean it's a 5-6 win player, so....this year that's Aaron Judge, Javier Baez, Paul Goldschmidt, J.D. Martinez....

 

Those are all superstars.

 

Agreed, if he ever hits, he's a super star. If. 

[Jham]

Buxton stole an MLB paycheck for 2 months last season. We stuck with him through thick and thin.His track for his injury this year could have bern a DL, rehab, option play very easily but gave him another chance to stick. It worked last year, not this year. He was playing every other game in AAA with the wrist injury. I think people forget how truly awful Buck was BEFORE his toe injury. We burned this bridge with Perkins once, and it turned out good for everyone. Especially the Yankees.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Jham

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't think so. Wrist issues aren't new for him, I think a shutdown then would have passed without much angst. Especially with a "Ft. Myers" type action plan. Most folks were already shrugging it off as a lost season by then (for Buxton and for the Twins as a team).

The messaging gets super-clouded when you let him play through it at AAA, he plays fairly well, and then you try to revive the "lost season" framing on Sep. 1st.

 

I think you're giving fans way too much credit.  The bar for angst is much lower.  Look no further than the trade deadline, of which you were a part.

 

What would've been different is they would've had a legitimate leg to stand on.  I think they should've spent more time talking about how Buxton couldn't even be relied to play every day since the wrist injury - that should've been front and center in their reasoning.  We all know service time is a major factor, but so is health.  

[Riverbrian]

 

That is what there is to LOVE about him. He plays 100 percent. You see it as a negative?  Man. 

 

I agree with this without reservation. 

 

The way he plays is currently the best thing about his game. 

[Riverbrian]

 

1. I think the Profar comparison is interesting, and helpful. I hope Buxton has a similar response. There's no reason Profar needs to do this, but I think it would a classy move for him to reach out to Buxton and say, "I've been there -- go prove them wrong."

 

https://www.twincities.com/2018/09/02/byron-buxton-decision-becomes-sensitive-topic-for-twins-players/ 

 

2. I think Molitor's quotes make sense: “I’m going to have a nice conversation with him and share my perspective,” Molitor said Sunday in Arlington, Texas. “We’ll try to get to where the understanding and the respect remains. I don’t think it’s going to be a problem between Byron and (me).” and “Sometimes I think time is a really good ally for everybody involved. Ultimately it’s still going to be about him and his career and his performance and his health, all those things moving forward.”

 

We can bellyache about Molitor decisions, but one thing I think he does pretty well is remain under control, not throwing guys under the bus, and dealing with people one-on-one. I suspect there will be a hear-to-heart conversation between the two of them that we won't even hear about, and that's probably a good thing. 

 

3. I think Levine was a straight shooter with his comments. I paraphrase his message as, "We made a tough decision, and Byron and his agent have their right to be disappointed. We would be disappointed if he didn't want to come up to the majors. We still believe Byron can help us, so we are going to do our part to make it a good relationship going forward." And I applaud them for not trying to force such a conversation right now -- those chats rarely go well when they happen in the heat of the moment. 

 

I agree that Molitor's comments were perfect. 

[ewen21]

Reading posts about Buxton here over the last couple of years the praise has been overly effusive and premature.  I quite frankly don't like venerating baseball players as some otherwordly beings.  They entertain me by playing baseball.  I am more in awe of a surgeon, a doctor, certain people in law enforcement, the military, etc....those are truly exceptional people.

 

I appreciate baseball players for their ability to play a game and they get plenty of praise lavished upon them along with a ton of money.  I think Mauer and Buxton get treated like royalty here in some ways and it is sort of verboten to offer criticism about either.  

 

Byron Buxton is not a star by any stretch of the imagination.  Last year was an outlier season for his fielding.  I seriously doubt he will ever be able to match what he did in the field last year because he was fortunate to get tons of opportunities.  Let's just be honest here and admit that he is a big concern right now.  Not just for his very real struggles with his hitting (last year's final 7 or 8 weeks aside), but also for his frequent injuries.  He is going to be in his 25 year old season and a lot of the pundits here had him earmarked to be a superstar by now.  I just sat back and listened.  I don't have a crystal ball, but apparently some do.  And if I had a nickel for every thread or article tellimg me that "Byron Buxton is Fast" I would have at least $1.98, almost enough to buy a happy meal.

Not trying to be combative here, just wondering when people are going to tone it down.  Seems totally OK for people to attack those who criticize Buxton and I don't get it.  There should be equal time.

 

I am not asking people to come forward and say they were wrong, but I am wondering why people are still fighting hard to tell us how good he is and how good he can be.  Can we at least sit back and see without getting a talking to about comments on what happened this season?  To discuss what went down in an honest and accurate manner is being characterized as "negativity" and I am really growing weary of that.

 

Buxton had a rough season on many levels.  Not for anything, but I saw a red flag back in March when Mike Beradino wrote this article about how he takes pride in playing with pain:

https://www.twincities.com/2018/03/28/twins-star-byron-buxton-takes-pride-in-his-ability-to-play-through-pain/

He didn't or could not do that this season and it won't get any easier as time marches forward.

 

I am not ready to say he is a BUST, but damn if he doesn't look like one right now.  He needs to have an epiphany and understand that YES.....we do need him to stay healthy and hit. This would mean that he needs to make changes in how he does things.  That needs to start this winter.  Heck, that should start TODAY, in my opinion. What he did (even with all his talent) isn't quite geting it done

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think you're giving fans way too much credit. The bar for angst is much lower. Look no further than the trade deadline, of which you were a part.

 

What would've been different is they would've had a legitimate leg to stand on. I think they should've spent more time talking about how Buxton couldn't even be relied to play every day since the wrist injury - that should've been front and center in their reasoning. We all know service time is a major factor, but so is health.

Actually, Buxton's wrist issue came up around the trade deadline too. Shutting him down then would have almost certainly caused less consternation, simply because it would have been sharing the spotlight. Not to mention that his bat had not warmed up yet, which is a big source of the confusion now.

 

Also, I think the trade deadline angst would have been dissipated if they had traded someone at the beginning of July when they were 12 games back, or otherwise communicated they were shifting gears. Some of that is understandable publicly, but it could have been dealt with better privately. The manager and players should not learn the club is sellers from a TV in the clubhouse.

 

Actually those same communication issues are probably at the root of the Buxton situation now, where the public statements said his bat had to warm up before they'd recall him, and it did -- and then the parameters of the recall suddenly seemed to change. They should have laid the groundwork for this decision, publicly and to Buxton and the clubhouse, by July 2nd when they optioned him, or later in the month when the wrist injury flared up. (If not simply shut him down upon the latter event.) Instead we can clearly see a player who is upset, a clubhouse which is confused, and a GM throwing a bunch of reasons against the wall to see what sticks.

 

(I still think the wrist is not the highest concern right now -- he wouldn't be playing on it at all in late August if it was serious enough to warrant a September shutdown. Getting ample time off as he worked his way back was prudent, and it certainly made it difficult to recall him before Sep. 1st, but isn't really a concern after rosters expand.)

[adorduan]

 

Morality is how you treat the non-super star. Yes, it matters how they treat Buxton regardless of his future fame.

 

And if he pulls off that MVP year, that extra year of "control" means having to pay more to keep him. Salaries in the MLB go up drastically each and every year. Unless they don't want to keep him regardless of how well he performs?

So what? At least you are paying for performance instead of "potential".

[Doomtints]

 

So what? At least you are paying for performance instead of "potential".

 

Wha? He's getting the league minimum for as long as the Twins will want him in either case. If he has an MVP year, he walks.

[ewen21]

 

Wha? He's getting the league minimum for as long as the Twins will want him in either case. If he has an MVP year, he walks.

If he has an MVP year?

 

Kind of a leap to make at this point, wouldn't you say??

[USAFChief]

Wha? He's getting the league minimum for as long as the Twins will want him in either case. If he has an MVP year, he walks.

He CANT walk until 2023.

[Blackjack]

 

So, are you then saying that if he does figure out a way to stay off the DL and does become an all-star that all this was spot on? And that it will then become worrisome about being able to sign him when he hits FA because of how unfair the FO was in this decision despite the contrary moaning and groaning about the moaning and groaning?

 

(And as a bit of a note ... let's refrain from calling people's differing opinions as moaning and groaning.)

Thanks, I needed a good chuckle! I'm referring to the fact that you referred to 'moaning and groaning' - twice - in your post, and then chided me on it.

 

Not sure what your point was though, I read it twice and still don't understand...

[Blackjack]

 

Morality is how you treat the non-super star. Yes, it matters how they treat Buxton regardless of his future fame.

 

And if he pulls off that MVP year, that extra year of "control" means having to pay more to keep him. Salaries in the MLB go up drastically each and every year. Unless they don't want to keep him regardless of how well he performs?

 

Morality is fine - up to a point. Think Joe Mauer, he's earned it.  Buxton, not hardly. 

 

I started this post thinking that its ok to not bring Buxton up in September, but then changed my mind when other posters talked about extra at bats in Sept, etc.  But when they didn't bring him up I was ok Mr. Buxton, use this as motivation, come out in April smokin.  Show the Twins they screwed up!!!! I'm from Missouri. show me!!!!!

 

I wouldn't bet $100 that he'll be hitting 300 on May 1st!!!

 

Talking about morality, how many players leave their teams every year via free agency???   They go after the big bucks, they go after a championship, they go to play closer to home, or all of the above.  And you want to preach morality, about some team keeping a player off their roster for 30 days???!!

 

Pfffft!!

[laloesch]

He was hitting .385 since activated in August. It's Buck's job. Cave is at best a corner outfielder. Buck is the best defensive center fielder in all of baseball.

 

Like i said CONSISTENCYYYYY.....2017 he hit .147 in March / April, .254 in May, .184 in June, .387 July (10 games), .324 in August (great month), .270 in Sept. / Oct. 2018 In April/March .192 and May .122.

 

Need to see consistency, until then Cave.

[jokin]

 

The guy can barely hit .200 and you want him to take over Cave's starting job to finish the season?  okayyyy...... 

 

Nope, not OK.

 

I've repeatedly stated that I'm perfectly satisfied in the Twins FO decision in shutting him down, making certain he's 100% healthy, wiping the slate clean and spending the offseason by preventative"prehabbing" and building more muscle mass, while also focusing on his glaring plate deficiencies.

 

You've yet to address the points made:

-that the Twins can't start 2019 with an all-LH-hitting OF

-that Cave threatens Kepler more than Buxton

-that Buxton has demonstrated a much higher ceiling than Cave that is worth the time and effort to play out further>>>> look no further than Aaron Hicks for a horrendous example of high-ceiling prospect FO impatience.

[Kelly Vance]

 

If the question comes down to "is he a major league baseball player"?  I'd say the majority of the evidence says "No"

 

At least not yet. 

No only the best defensive player in all of major league baseball. 

[laloesch]

 

He was hitting .385 since activated in August. It's Buck's job. Cave is at best a corner outfielder. Buck is the best defensive center fielder in all of baseball. 

 

tell that Levine and Falvey because apparently they don't think so.  sorry.

[Kelly Vance]

 

He does the Twins no good if he's on the injured list. Save the Superman stuff for the last out of a playoff game. Play hard but smart. 

It doesn't work like that. When the ball is in the air, his job is to go get it. Come hell or high fences

[ewen21]

The idea that the Twins present a heinous example of holding a guy back due to service time considerations is absurd. They said it was a factor and they really didn't need to do that.

 

The players union in baseball is probably the strongest union in America. Buxton doesn't have a pot to P in if he's going to file a grievance. He hit .156 and had a variety of ailments he's been nursing all year. He didn't even do well in Rochester until he strung four multi-hit games together. Even with that, and with a small number of at bats there, he barely pushed his average over .270

 

This doesn't scream PROMOTION to me. Yet I see a lot of people up in arms about this and there is even a discussion about "morality" in here. I have no idea where that fits in to this issue.

Edited September 4, 2018 by ewen21

[Squirrel]

 

so now you are a mind reader?   I don't condescend to know what they think, but they would be really blind, deaf and dumb if they didn't KNOW he is the most talented Twin of all.... 4 tools are solid but hitting for average needs work.  But he was recognized as the best defensive player in all of baseball, at any position.  I think they KNOW that.

 

Yeah, i read minds and practice telekinesis.....rolls eyes

 

MODERATOR WARNING:

Knock it off. You are making your posts personal towards one another. Stop bickering.

 

And if you don't want to respond to someone's post, don't respond to it.

[Rigby]

 

Morality is fine - up to a point.  

 

You may want to enter that one into the 2019 Twins slogan contest....

[Doomtints]

 

He CANT walk until 2023.

 

Who said otherwise?

[jkcarew]

I heard a rumor that Carlos Correa is going to walk when he hits free agency in 2022 because the Astros took the immoral/disrespectful/unnecessary/deplorable/legal-but-still-really-icky action of exercising their leverage by only offering a $4.2M bonus to sign Correa out of Puerto Rico as the top pick.  He's ticked that the guy picked AFTER him got $6M to sign with the Twins.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I heard a rumor that Carlos Correa is going to walk when he hits free agency in 2022 because the Astros took the immoral/disrespectful/unnecessary/deplorable/legal-but-still-really-icky action of exercising their leverage by only offering a $4.2M bonus to sign Correa out of Puerto Rico as the top pick.  He's ticked that the guy picked AFTER him got $6M to sign with the Twins.  

This must be an attempt at a joke? Otherwise it's bad info. Correa agreed to that bonus before the Astros drafted him. The Astros probably wouldn't have drafted him 1-1 if he had demanded a significantly higher bonus. It's not even remotely analogous to the Buxton situation.

 

Correa is playing year-to-year with an eye towards free agency, like a lot of players do, but it has nothing to do with his 2012 draft bonus.

[jkcarew]

 

This must be an attempt at a joke? Otherwise it's bad info. Correa agreed to that bonus before the Astros drafted him. The Astros probably wouldn't have drafted him 1-1 if he had demanded a significantly higher bonus. It's not even remotely analogous to the Buxton situation.

 

Correa is playing year-to-year with an eye towards free agency, like a lot of players do, but it has nothing to do with his 2012 draft bonus.

Tongue-in-cheek jab at those that are obsessing on how Buxton will react to this down the road.  He won't.  (If he becomes the player we all hope he becomes)...he'll end up going to a team that offers the best package of $ and winning.  Period.