Article: Hardball, the Twins, and Byron Buxton

[TheLeviathan]

 

I was mostly needling you about not seeing it, that is all. I understand you are not convinced, although the rest of your post didn't really explain why, hence why I didn't include it in the quote.

There does seem to be a contradiction in this take. If at bats this month aren't critical, as you say, then what is your confidence level going into 2019? Must be pretty low, in which case, how valuable is that month next year? (It might actually have negative value if he starts slow out of spring training yet again.)

 

The factor you aren't including is what is done between now and then to improve the confidence in him going into 2019.

 

Cave is nothing special, but at least you have three viable OFs on the roster not including Buxton and there is certainly the financial room to add someone like Marwin Gonzalez (or some other non-lefty OF) to help supplement.  

 

My confidence is low in the short term, but I haven't given up on him in the long-term.  If I'm the Twins I spend the next 7 months doing anything possible to turn his talent into production.  What that is....I don't know, it's beyond my pay grade.

[TheLeviathan]

Buxton will be mad at the FO and has some cause to be.  He also could have, you know, hit his way past a .383 OPS this season and helped with the decision.

 

.383 OPS, look at that again.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Interesting comments from Lavine. Thanks for posting the article.

 

If Buxton is pissed... Hopefully he uses it as motivation and we will find out if he is the type who holds a grudge for 4 years.

 

I've stated multiple times that I'm Ok with him taking September off and ...

Riverbrian, Buxton is not "taking September off." He is being sent home early so that his employer may preserve an extra year of service time.

[USAFChief]

Twins decide not to call up Byron Buxton at end of Class AAA Rochester's season

http://m.startribune.com/twins-decide-not-to-call-up-byron-buxton-at-end-of-class-aaa-rochester-s-season/492278891/

Well, we bought another year...let’s hope it’s worth the bad blood between player and team, and the bad optics to every other player and agent out there.

 

And let’s hope that year turns out to be valuable.

 

None of that seems likely at this point to me.

 

Yeesh, this is why I always say when I’m in charge I will trade prospects for proven big leaguers almost every time.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Buxton will be mad at the FO and has some cause to be. He also could have, you know, hit his way past a .383 OPS this season and helped with the decision.

 

.383 OPS, look at that again.

Again, you leave out the fact that he was playing hurt, on a fractured toe.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The factor you aren't including is what is done between now and then to improve the confidence in him going into 2019.

 

Cave is nothing special, but at least you have three viable OFs on the roster not including Buxton and there is certainly the financial room to add someone like Marwin Gonzalez (or some other non-lefty OF) to help supplement.

 

My confidence is low in the short term, but I haven't given up on him in the long-term. If I'm the Twins I spend the next 7 months doing anything possible to turn his talent into production. What that is....I don't know, it's beyond my pay grade.

I wouldn't say I am not including this factor. They absolutely can and should work with him this offseason. I just don't know if it makes a difference whether that offseason is 5 months long or 4 months long.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Buxton will be mad at the FO and has some cause to be. He also could have, you know, hit his way past a .383 OPS this season and helped with the decision.

 

.383 OPS, look at that again.

Buxton was bad, but it was only 94 PA total. And of that, only 43 were healthy (with a .476 OPS). The last 51 PA of .303 OPS came when trying to play through a broken toe.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This is about more than just Buxton. It's about a front office that doesn't have the best interests of its players at heart. Word is out. Lukewarm free agent signings last winter; who will agree to play here next winter? Pulling the plug on the season at the trade deadline before the season was completely over, with Escobar finding out he was traded from teammates who saw the ESPN ticker. That's not leadership. Manipulating Buxton's service time in September, because they can. These too-clever-by-half types of things backfire more often than not. Players are not widgets. Organizations that do business this way do not win. That's my short-winded feeling on it.

[TheLeviathan]

Again, you leave out the fact that he was playing hurt, on a fractured toe.

Want to expand the sample size? It doesn't help.

 

Want to look at his k rate in AAA? Also not helpful.

 

I'm ok with people being frustrated by a service time decision, but let's be real here: the vast majority of Buxton's MLB time has been awful. So let's save the excuses please. Buxton has done himself no favors.

Edited September 2, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[Riverbrian]

 

Well, they did it. They shut him down and they know it ticked him off. Levine said 

 

"From this day forward, I think we recognize a responsibility to make amends," Levine said. "And that we're going to need to invest in the relationship with Byron Buxton moving forward, because I think as much as we would like to believe that all the relationship building here to date will carry the day, we understand this is a blow to the player, a potential blow to the relationship and we're prepared to try and stay as consistent as we can and reinvest in that element of this because we realized this was information that was not appealing or certainly collaborative."

 

Translation, "We know this will piss him off, but maybe we can give him something to smooth his ruffled feathers."

 

Meaning:  Buck is gone as soon as he can go free agent, and he won't sign an extension. 

 

That's a 4 year grudge.

 

He is either an adult dealing with a set back or immature without the ability to deal with things. 

 

Every person I have ever met, that had the capability of holding a grudge for 4 years was either: 

 

A. Someone who shuts down and refuses to communicate afterwards so the air never gets cleared. 

 

B. A person who is so emotionally messed up that they actually like the feeling of being angry. 

 

C. A person who never takes responsibility for his own actions and constantly shifts blame to others. 

 

Neither A or B or C is the type of person that you want to give a big money free agent contract.

 

Besides... We could have granted him every one of his wishes and he would still be gone if the Yankees outbid us. 

 

Buxton needs to outplay the players competing for his job. That's the bottom line. 

 

Let him hit triples, dust himself off and point to the executive suite and say "Take that you (Insert expletive of choice)". 

 

He needs to realize right now that he is not guaranteed to be Willie Mays. He has to look at himself and take control of his future with both hands. 

 

Holding a grudge for 4 years. If he can do that. I don't want him. 

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

I wouldn't say I am not including this factor. They absolutely can and should work with him this offseason. I just don't know if it makes a difference whether that offseason is 5 months long or 4 months long.

None of us know what will help, but most of us (all?) that are ok with this are banking on this factor.

 

Hell, all the arguments being made have some wishful component of what will help. So your prior criticism can pretty much be applied universally and with similar skepticism.

[Riverbrian]

 

Riverbrian, Buxton is not "taking September off." He is being sent home early so that his employer may preserve an extra year of service time.

 

Hosken, I am sensing that you are not happy with the decision and that's OK. 

 

However... you know that I have posted quite a bit on the subject and you disagree with me and that is also OK... But I think you fully understand that I fully understand what this means.     

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

Well, we bought another year...let’s hope it’s worth the bad blood between player and team, and the bad optics to every other player and agent out there.

And let’s hope that year turns out to be valuable.

None of that seems likely at this point to me.

Yeesh, this is why I always say when I’m in charge I will trade prospects for proven big leaguers almost every time.

 

This is why I'm against prospects getting rushed to the major leagues, burning service time to struggling in the name of learning. 

[Squirrel]

Buxton will be mad at the FO and has some cause to be. He also could have, you know, hit his way past a .383 OPS this season and helped with the decision.

 

.383 OPS, look at that again.

Or, you could also say the FO’s handling of pushing him back to the lineup before his broken toe was fully healed, also had a part in his missed season. They bungled his handling and now he pays an even bigger price for it by them manipulating his service time. I’m glad Falvey mentions ‘making amends’ because as well as Buxton himself, they also had a hand in this, perhaps a bigger hand, but are the only ones reaping the rewards at Buxton’s expense.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Or, you could also say the FO’s handling of pushing him back to the lineup before his broken toe was fully healed, also had a part in his missed season. They bungled his handling and now he pays an even bigger price for it by them manipulating his service time. I’m glad Falvey mentions ‘making amends’ because as well as Buxton himself, they also had a hand in this, perhaps a bigger hand, but are the only ones reaping the rewards at Buxton’s expense.

 

Unless he's had a broken toe for the last four years, I don't really buy it.  And it doesn't explain why AAA guys are striking him out like crazy.

 

People keep trying to blame the broken toe but Buxton's hitting issues long pre-date that.  And have continued since.

[Squirrel]

Unless he's had a broken toe for the last four years, I don't really buy it. And it doesn't explain why AAA guys are striking him out like crazy.

 

People keep trying to blame the broken toe but Buxton's hitting issues long pre-date that. And have continued since.

Have you ever had a broken toe? And the big toe at that? It’s painful and debilitating. I’m not saying the FO is all to blame for Buxton’s season, but they had a hand in it, forcing his turn before he was fully healthy, but resulted in a worse situation, And now do this on top of it for their gain at Buxton’s expense. Look, I’ve said before, many times now but posters seem to want to only mention one aspect of my comments to suit their own rebuttal ... if Buxton wasn’t capable or ready to come north, that would be one thing. But that service time manipulation seems to be a primary consideration, not his well being, I have issues with that, especially since they had a hand in his lost season to begin with.

[Blackjack]

Falvine is paid to do whats best for the franchise and that means getting the extra year of service time on Buxton.

 

If Buxton overcomes his normal poor start and is having an MVP type season on July 1, is it because now hes motivated to show Falvine and the Twins or is it because Falvine gave him the extra month off to get healthy, lift weights, bulk up? Only time will tell. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Unless he's had a broken toe for the last four years, I don't really buy it. And it doesn't explain why AAA guys are striking him out like crazy.

 

People keep trying to blame the broken toe but Buxton's hitting issues long pre-date that. And have continued since.

It's tricky, though. Not much has changed since last offseason -- a handful of bad PA, some injuries, his usual AAA performance once he got back.

 

At least Sano got a few healthy months before he got the Ft Myers treatment.

[darin617]

This may come back and hurt the Twins BIG TIME if Buxton can find his stroke & stay healthy going forward. Those are 2 big things to ask for sure.

 

Is it worth it to gain another year of service time? My answer would be no. Gaining 1 extra year of service time gains you absolutely nothing in the long run. Back to my earlier points that if he rebounds and stays healthy his agent may not entertain the thought of a long term deal. Then it's just a waiting game for him to become a free agent and leave.

 

On paper this seems like a smart move. Sadly, everyone comes out of this a loser.

[Platoon]

I am a firm believer that Buxton will end up a defining player in the Twins future, as I still think his talent will show through. So there are parts of me that want to see him play and develop ASAP, and those that want to keep the year of ST. The current FO approach does both. But at what cost?

 

The wrist issue is being under played here. Is it legitimate? Is it FO deflection?

IF it is legitimate and Buxton is not completely healthy I can see the FO feeling some justification in him being withheld a year of ST. Just keeping him on the MLB roster to burn this month if he really can't swing effectively isn't a sound business decision. And MLB is a business. Yet the fan side of me says I would rather see him play now.

 

Btw, Jake Caves playing time isn't an issue for me. Jake Cave is a fourth OF type, with more power than one would expect and a little less defense than one would expect. He has had a pretty lengthly audition, and I doubt the FO needs further info on him. But the biggest reason is his ceiling isn't making or breaking any team.

 

Buxton on the other hand is a player who is a key piece in the teams future. If he doesn't fulfill both his inherent talent and frankly his hype, their is little chance for this team to ever reach the peak that Sano and him onetime dangled so enticingly in front of us. He can/could be that good. That's what makes this decision different than the Caves of MLB. Reverse Cave and Buxton and no one would have cared if Cave left four years from now in a hissy fit, or if he came up and burned that year.

 

While I have went back and forth on this issue, I have came to the conclusion that forced to make the decision myself, I would make the same one. But there is a qualifier herein! If the FO is willing to make such a hard core business decision regarding this issue, I fully expect to see it continue forward in that vein of practices. Meaning, cleaning up the 40 man roster, and further improving the field staffs of all the teams. Moving sacred cows on and off the field. Someone, somewhere, or possibly all over the orginisation is NOT teaching the appreciation of fundamentals to these players. The orginisation has been littered with the likes of brothers of players. Sons of managers. And a seemingly endless stream of "special assistants"? While that doesn't preclude them from being good baseball minds, it doesn't necessitate it either.

 

Lastly, four years hence? Buxton becomes the star that is possible, and I envision? What then? Will the CBA remain the same? Will the financial situation of MLB and the entertainment industry in general remain as it currently is? No one knows. What we do know is that most players will take the best deal for themselves and their families, just as we would. For family reasons we and even some players may give a discount? That said, Byron Buxton is not Joe Mauer, there will not be either a hometown discount or a familial tie to this area. He will likely follow the money. Many consider him the heir to other Twins center fielders. In that context all one has to do to consider Buxtons likely actions in four years is see Hunter, Torii. He was adored here, he expressed a similar adoration for the local fans, and then he followed the money right out of town. MLB is a business, for both the owners and the players.

[yarnivek1972]

Well, they did it. They shut him down and they know it ticked him off. Levine said

 

"From this day forward, I think we recognize a responsibility to make amends," Levine said. "And that we're going to need to invest in the relationship with Byron Buxton moving forward, because I think as much as we would like to believe that all the relationship building here to date will carry the day, we understand this is a blow to the player, a potential blow to the relationship and we're prepared to try and stay as consistent as we can and reinvest in that element of this because we realized this was information that was not appealing or certainly collaborative."

 

Translation, "We know this will piss him off, but maybe we can give him something to smooth his ruffled feathers."

 

Meaning: Buck is gone as soon as he can go free agent, and he won't sign an extension.

He has a career OPS+ of 79 in over 1000 PA. Is this truly something to be worried about?

 

Sure, maybe someday he’ll actually be a legitimate MLB hitter. But the fantasy of him being some kind of otherwordly player is over.

[Doomtints]

Shutting down Buxton is a decision that reminds me of some of the decisions under Bill Smith. It's nonsense and everyone can see it as such except for the front office.

[Brandon Warne]

 

This post hasn't aged well...

How so? It's now an issue. I said it wasn't an issue until it happened. It has now happened. I think it's the wrong decision.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Yet somehow, .135 hitting waiver castoff Johnny Field got a call up.

 

The end goals for Field and Buxton are not the same.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Buxton is a bust. He is injury prone and his slow starts last five months. 

 

After May 1 last year he hit .272/.325/.454. With his defense, that's a superstar.

[TheLeviathan]

 

This may come back and hurt the Twins BIG TIME if Buxton can find his stroke & stay healthy going forward. Those are 2 big things to ask for sure.

 

Is it worth it to gain another year of service time? My answer would be no. Gaining 1 extra year of service time gains you absolutely nothing in the long run. Back to my earlier points that if he rebounds and stays healthy his agent may not entertain the thought of a long term deal. Then it's just a waiting game for him to become a free agent and leave.

 

On paper this seems like a smart move. Sadly, everyone comes out of this a loser.

 

Gaining one year of service time is actually extraordinarily valuable if Buxton becomes a competent to good major league hitter.  The problem, of course, is that we have very little evidence so far that he will. 

 

What we have is a bunch of us wishfully thinking our plan with him will bring that Byron out for 162 games, but none of us know with any certainty what would work.

 

I hope this plan works.  And if it doesn't, I hope the next thing we try works.  There is clearly talent there, but there are now over 1,000 PA that indicate he may be a bust.  Let's hope this strategy, and whatever they do in the offseason, reverses that.

Edited September 2, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[USAFChief]

After May 1 last year he hit .272/.325/.454. With his defense, that's a superstar.

Our definitions of “superstar” vary widely.

[Kelly Vance]

 

Gaining one year of service time is actually extraordinarily valuable if Buxton becomes a competent to good major league hitter.  The problem, of course, is that we have very little evidence so far that he will. 

 

What we have is a bunch of us wishfully thinking our plan with him will bring that Byron out for 162 games, but none of us know with any certainty what would work.

 

I hope this plan works.  And if it doesn't, I hope the next thing we try works.  There is clearly talent there, but there are now over 1,000 PA that indicate he may be a bust.  Let's hope this strategy, and whatever they do in the offseason, reverses that.

This moves means they gotta trade him before his contract is over. Which means they want to help him play better.... for some other team 

[Kelly Vance]

 

This is about more than just Buxton. It's about a front office that doesn't have the best interests of its players at heart. Word is out. Lukewarm free agent signings last winter; who will agree to play here next winter? Pulling the plug on the season at the trade deadline before the season was completely over, with Escobar finding out he was traded from teammates who saw the ESPN ticker. That's not leadership. Manipulating Buxton's service time in September, because they can. These too-clever-by-half types of things backfire more often than not. Players are not widgets. Organizations that do business this way do not win. That's my short-winded feeling on it.

Im with ya. 

[Twodogs]

 

Our definitions of “superstar” vary widely.

Well he had MVP votes last year, so that puts him in some sort of an elite company.

 

I don't think he's going to do well here, same as with Hicks, for Buxton to realize his true potential, for whatever reason it may be, I think he will need to be on another team to do it.  I think if Hicks had stayed in Minnesota he would have been out of the league by now.  Why it's like this I have no clue.  I'm starting to feel the same about Sano too.  I mean it could be something as simple as those guys are not leaders and they need to be on a team that has some leaders so they are not the primary focus or something.  But whatever it is, they look to continue down this road of failure until they land somewhere else.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Twodogs