Article: Hardball, the Twins, and Byron Buxton

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

He sucked before the broken toe.....

For two weeks. And he has a record of starting slow.

 

Two weeks, my man.

[old nurse]

 

Outside of the Yankees and Houston, Buxton will be facing AAAA pitching up here in September.  Will anyone learn anything from that?  With hearing in the Star Tribune his wrist may still be a minor issue (this may be FO doubletalk), shutting him down does not seem that unreasonable.

 

This is a wild exagerration. Yes, there are some bad teams, but there are still a lot of players on those teams above "AAAA" talent. (And September callups don't usually pitch many innings, and honestly aren't that different from the staff the rest of the year -- in some cases, they might be inprovements!)

Look at the Tigers, they still have 3 SP with 104-113 ERA+, plus Fulmer having a down year at 94, plus Greene and Wilson in their pen. Those are all pitchers for whom it would be valuable for Buxton to face.

The Royals are worse, but they still have Duffy, Junis, and Keller starting.

The White Sox have Rodon and Kopech who have looked great so far, plus Shields and Lopez having competent seasons.

Not to mention we have 30% of our remaining games against NYY, HOU, and OAK where we could encounter a nice playoff atmosphere.

The Tigers have 0 starting pitchers with an ERA under 4.  FIP and XFIP disagree on the year Boyd is having.    I am not agreeing on the AAAA pitching bit. AAAA pitching is Slegers. That is not what a team sees in September. They may see a few innings from players close to the major leagues who have had ok seasons. I don't recall the lifer minor league pitchers getting a reward call up playing. other than a mop up It doesn't mean they don't exist. It is just highly unlikely

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I urge all Twins fans to step back, look at the offensive stats, and pretend you are looking at a guy who plays for the Padres or Marlins.

...

Ok, I've done your little mental exercise using another player, and pretending he is on the Padres or Marlins, I can't for the life of me understand why they are calling up Johnny Field over Byron Buxton Edited September 1, 2018 by Hosken Bombo Disco

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Just read that Buxton is still “battling soreness in his wrist”.

is there a link to a news source citing an uninterested party, or did you just read this from another anonymous poster? Oy Edited September 1, 2018 by Hosken Bombo Disco

[jorgenswest]

It is a business and it should be. It is the front office’s obligation to protect the interests of the organization. I haven’t seen an argument that a month this year is better than a full season in his prime. I haven’t seen an argument that a month of this losing season is better than a few weeks next April.

 

I am not convinced that the at bats he will get this month are critical to his success. I also am not convinced that his reaction to the decision will have an impact on his future performance.

 

Will the White Sox call up Eloy Jimenez who has destroyed minor league pitching and has shown solid pitch recognition in his strike out rates? Probably not. It is in the best interest of the organization to keep control an additional year of his prime.

[Riverbrian]

 

It is a business and it should be. It is the front office’s obligation to protect the interests of the organization. I haven’t seen an argument that a month this year is better than a full season in his prime. I haven’t seen an argument that a month of this losing season is better than a few weeks next April.

I am not convinced that the at bats he will get this month are critical to his success. I also am not convinced that his reaction to the decision will have an impact on his future performance.

Will the White Sox call up Eloy Jimenez who has destroyed minor league pitching and has shown solid pitch recognition in his strike out rates? Probably not. It is in the best interest of the organization to keep control an additional year of his prime.

 

[Squirrel]

 

He's not the best player right now. If he was even close to major league quality. We are not having this discussion. I want the year back because he has been wasting mine. 

 

The spirit was negotiated between the Commissioners Office and the Players Union. Ask yourself why Super-Two is even necessary and you'll realize that they were aware of each other's tendencies during the negotiation. 

 

Also keep in mind that, the same CBA also protects Byron Buxton and he was bad enough that he needed that protection. 

 

The players have representation, I wouldn't be worried about Byron Buxton. 

 

If you want to worry about ethics... you need to focus on the players not on the 40 man.

 

The players that don't have representation are in the bowels of the minor league system, players are making $1,160 a month down on the farm. The Commissioners office has representation now in Washington and they spent enough money funding election campaigns, that they can really slap those unrepresented players (that we have never heard of) silly. 

 

The Consolidated Appropriations Act. (H.R. 1625) was a 1.3 trillion dollar spending bill that managed to avoid a government shut down at the last minute. The MLB Commissioners office was able to lobby enough influence, fund enough election campaigns to get a provision attached on page 1,967 of the 2,232 page spending bill stating that minor league baseball players are exempt from federal labor standards. If you are not on the 40 man roster... major league baseball can pay you poverty wages and our government gives that the thumps up as long as they get funding for re-election. 

 

Buxton has representation... If you want to worry about Buxton... I'd worry that if he doesn't start playing better. He will have H.R. 1625 to worry about. 

Brian, you and I are never going to agree. I think there is an ethical conundrum here. You don't. You're fine with it. I'm not. Yes, it's the way it is and we have to live with it. I just don't believe in maximizing profits at the cost of labor, even if that labor force is a bunch of millionaires. But I find cheering for it and hoping for it, well, wrong, from a human being standpoint. And I understand the frustration of wanting the year back, but this is the thing with prospects becoming 'sure thing' MLB stars ... it's not a sure thing and it's not guaranteed. I still don't agree with 'taking it out' on him because that's how I see some of the comments that have been made.

 

That said, I don't have one single issue with him not being promoted because they think that he needs to work at it, is not ready, and it's better for him, his career and his development, to not bring him up. I don't necessarily agree with that decision, but that I understand. But I don't agree and will never agree, that not bringing him up for the sole purpose of ... let me repeat that ... for the sole purpose of manipulating service time. That that happens, that that's the 'gain' for making the decision to keep him down for development purposes? Okay, that's what it is and that I don't have issues with that but I don't think it should be a consideration. But so many have put the service time issue as primary, and that I don't agree with. Service time manipulation isn't what's best for anyone's development, imo. I just think it's ethically questionable to maximize profits at the cost of labor ... even if that labor makes more than I'd even have a clue what to do with. Management is taking advantage of a loophole. Yeah ... many would. Still doesn't make it something that isn't questionable.

 

Feel free to keep debating ... but you're debating to a wall on this one. Enjoy!

[Squirrel]

 

Just read that Buxton is still “battling soreness in his wrist”. Sounds like a reason to not bring him up.

I’ve read the back and forth and both sides make very good points. To me, we may be missing the most important issue - has he earned a call up by excelling at AAA? He’s had a few good games recently after stinking the joint up or being hurt all year. My view is forget the service time, don’t overestimate the value of 50-75 ABs mostly against September cannon fodder and decide if he’s earned a call up. I guess it’s a reasonably close call but think the answer is No and if he’s still got a bad wrist his health way overrides these ABs so it’s a definitely no.

And that is the issue, and should be the only issue, imo. I may not agree with him not being called up, but I understand if there are questions on whether or not he's ready -- physically, mentally, developmentally. If you are reading about Buxton still having health/wellness issues, then no, he stays put and goes home to get healthy and get ready for next season.

[jkcarew]

For two weeks. And he has a record of starting slow.

Two weeks, my man.

 

The career OPS+ sits at 79. That speaks for itself...and he was looking worse than ever.

[Don Walcott]

Please. Don’t talk about the financial hardship of Byron Buxton. He received a six million dollar signing bonus. Even if he never makes another dime, he should be set for life.

I didn’t say anything about financial hardship. He’s earning his money honestly, and not calling him up to keep him another year away from free agency would not be honest. It’s bad form, and the Twins should be better than that.

[Riverbrian]

 

Brian, you and I are never going to agree. I think there is an ethical conundrum here. You don't. You're fine with it. I'm not. Yes, it's the way it is and we have to live with it. 

 

Yeah probably not and that's ok. 

 

However, Just so you don't mistake my passion for the subject as being fine with it. 

 

I'm really not. The Players get screwed by the CBA in my opinion. The players association needs to do a better job representing the players so they are not in this situation in the next one. 

 

However... If I'm in a cookie baking contest with 29 other bakers. If the other 29 bakers while operating under rules are unethically using sugar. I'm not sure how my ethics are going to help me. 

[jkcarew]

I simultaneously want Buxton up, getting as many MLB at-bats as possible....AND at the same time, don’t have a problem with a FO making a decision in a scenario similar to this based on service time. I just wouldn’t have gone this way with Buxton.

[jkcarew]

I didn’t say anything about financial hardship. He’s earning his money honestly, and not calling him up to keep him another year away from free agency would not be honest. It’s bad form, and the Twins should be better than that.

And if Buxton had gotten the service year, and decided to sign elsewhere when he hit free agency...despite the Twins having made a ‘fair’ offer and having ‘stuck with him’ during his months/seasons of struggling....

 

would that then be poor form on the part of Buxton? Or would that be Buxton exercising his rights under the terms of the CBA? It’s a business, has been forever.

[Squirrel]

 

Yeah probably not and that's ok. 

 

However, Just so you don't mistake my passion for the subject as being fine with it. 

 

I'm really not. The Players get screwed by the CBA in my opinion. The players association needs to do a better job representing the players so they are not in this situation in the next one. 

 

However... If I'm in a cookie baking contest with 29 other bakers. If the other 29 bakers while operating under rules are unethically using sugar. I'm not sure how my ethics are going to help me. 

Lol, well ... not sure I can argue that logic. But ... when it comes to cookie baking, I'm pretty serious, and I wouldn't want to win in an ethically questionable way.

[Riverbrian]

 

And if Buxton had gotten the service year, and decided to sign elsewhere when he hit free agency...despite the Twins having made a ‘fair’ offer and having ‘stuck with him’ during his months/seasons of struggling....

would that then be poor form on the part of Buxton? Or would that be Buxton exercising his rights under the terms of the CBA? It’s a business, has been forever.

[Don Walcott]

And if Buxton had gotten the service year, and decided to sign elsewhere when he hit free agency...despite the Twins having made a ‘fair’ offer and having ‘stuck with him’ during his months/seasons of struggling....

 

would that then be poor form on the part of Buxton? Or would that be Buxton exercising his rights under the terms of the CBA? It’s a business, has been forever.

That hasn’t happened. So there’s no analogy there. And I would think Buxton walking is more likely if the Twins aren’t honest with him.

 

It is a business. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to be dishonest. In fact most people in business act ethically. It’s generally better for business.

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

...

 

Buxton is not going to transform into Ted Williams in 3 weeks playing against other September call ups. The Twins are doing the right thing by not recalling him in 2018.

I'd be impressed if he hit like Ted Uhleander.

[drivlikejehu]

There is no human right to reach MLB arbitration as early as possible. The Twins are under no kind of ethical obligation to call up a struggling, banged up player so that, in the event he actually becomes good, the player gets to free agency sooner. The logic behind this complaint escapes me entirely.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

It is a business and it should be. It is the front office’s obligation to protect the interests of the organization. I haven’t seen an argument that a month this year is better than a full season in his prime. I haven’t seen an argument that a month of this losing season is better than a few weeks next April.

I am not convinced that the at bats he will get this month are critical to his success. I also am not convinced that his reaction to the decision will have an impact on his future performance.

Will the White Sox call up Eloy Jimenez who has destroyed minor league pitching and has shown solid pitch recognition in his strike out rates? Probably not. It is in the best interest of the organization to keep control an additional year of his prime.

The comparison between the situations of Jimenez and Buxton is very weak. Jimenez has not made his debut. Jimenez's situation is more akin to Berrios in 2015.

[laloesch]

I urge all Twins fans to step back, look at the offensive stats, and pretend you are looking at a guy who plays for the Padres or Marlins.

 

What the Twins have is a 25 year-old career .230 hitter who has played parts of 4 seasons with the team. He has great speed, gold-glove defense, and a terrible strikeout rate. He's prone to prolonged slumps and injuries. That's what Buxton IS. An amazing defensive player who cannot hit MLB pitching right now. He also appears to be a great human being but that doesn't count right now.

 

Buxton is not going to transform into Ted Williams in 3 weeks playing against other September call ups. The Twins are doing the right thing by not recalling him in 2018.

I want players to succeed upon callup and this is a good post. First of all I think people need to reassess their expectations of Byron Buxton. He's not Mike Trout and probably never going to be. That said if he can develop better pitch recognition ability he has a future at the major league level as a starting center fielder. I am somewhat disturbed by how many people who continue to insist that he just battle through these woes at the major league when he has shown that he can't CONSISTENTLY hit major league pitching.

 

Marching orders for the offseason. Get stronger, stay healthy and really work on pitch recognition and bunting. Let Buxton focus on those things the entire offseason and reassess next spring. Cave has earned an extended look for the remainder of the season which Buxton has not. Just my opinion.

[Squirrel]

 

There is no human right to reach MLB arbitration as early as possible. The Twins are under no kind of ethical obligation to call up a struggling, banged up player so that, in the event he actually becomes good, the player gets to free agency sooner. The logic behind this complaint escapes me entirely.

Again, then, you didn't read the complaint. I have no issues with him not being called up due to health and performance issues. I just don't think service time manipulation should be the only or primary reason to not call him up. That alone is my point.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

There is no human right to reach MLB arbitration as early as possible. The Twins are under no kind of ethical obligation to call up a struggling, banged up player so that, in the event he actually becomes good, the player gets to free agency sooner. The logic behind this complaint escapes me entirely.

Setting aside the ethicality of it, you are misrepresenting details here. Buxton is neither struggling nor "banged up" right now.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Again, then, you didn't read the complaint. I have no issues with him not being called up due to health and performance issues. I just don't think service time manipulation should be the only or primary reason to not call him up. That alone is my point.

 

If he didn't have health and performance issues, he never would have been in AAA. 

[Don Walcott]

 

There is no human right to reach MLB arbitration as early as possible. The Twins are under no kind of ethical obligation to call up a struggling, banged up player so that, in the event he actually becomes good, the player gets to free agency sooner. The logic behind this complaint escapes me entirely.

Not one poster here has said it's a human right to reach arbitration. However, the Twins and Buxton are in a contractual relationship. If one party to a contract does something to prevent the other party from reaping the benefits of the agreement, it's a breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing.

 

You may believe Buxton doesn't deserve to be called up based on performance. That's fine, and that's a legitimate reason to not call him up. I disagree. I believe Buxton deserves to be called up, and that not calling him up would be a breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing. It would be dishonest and unethical, in my opinion. And I don't want the organization I root for to conduct its business in that way.

 

I felt this way when the Cubs held back Bryant as well, and I expect he and Mr. Boras won't be giving any loyalty discounts when the Cubs seek to extend him.

[Riverbrian]

 

Again, then, you didn't read the complaint. I have no issues with him not being called up due to health and performance issues. I just don't think service time manipulation should be the only or primary reason to not call him up. That alone is my point.

 

You got nothing to worry about then. 

 

The Twins will claim that it is due to health and performance issues. 

[Squirrel]

 

You got nothing to worry about then. 

 

The Twins will claim that it is due to health and performance issues. 

Heh, true that ... and no one can no for sure what's what ... so it's all moot and we should delete this thread of opposing opinions.

[TheLeviathan]

Setting aside the ethicality of it, you are misrepresenting details here. Buxton is neither struggling nor "banged up" right now.

Some reports indicate the wrist is still an issue. And while he may not be struggling, he is far from dominating.

 

He hasn't forced the Twins hand and the games are meaningless. There is no good reason to call him up IMO.

 

All the reasons listed are about keeping up appearances. Nuts to that.

[USAFChief]

Not one poster here has said it's a human right to reach arbitration. However, the Twins and Buxton are in a contractual relationship. If one party to a contract does something to prevent the other party from reaping the benefits of the agreement, it's a breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing.

 

You may believe Buxton doesn't deserve to be called up based on performance. That's fine, and that's a legitimate reason to not call him up. I disagree. I believe Buxton deserves to be called up, and that not calling him up would be a breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing. It would be dishonest and unethical, in my opinion. And I don't want the organization I root for to conduct its business in that way.

 

I felt this way when the Cubs held back Bryant as well, and I expect he and Mr. Boras won't be giving any loyalty discounts when the Cubs seek to extend him.

I expect he and Mr Boras wouldn’t have given any discounts no matter how the Cubs acted.

[Riverbrian]

 

Not one poster here has said it's a human right to reach arbitration. However, the Twins and Buxton are in a contractual relationship. If one party to a contract does something to prevent the other party from reaping the benefits of the agreement, it's a breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing.

 

You may believe Buxton doesn't deserve to be called up based on performance. That's fine, and that's a legitimate reason to not call him up. I disagree. I believe Buxton deserves to be called up, and that not calling him up would be a breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing. It would be dishonest and unethical, in my opinion. And I don't want the organization I root for to conduct its business in that way.

 

I felt this way when the Cubs held back Bryant as well, and I expect he and Mr. Boras won't be giving any loyalty discounts when the Cubs seek to extend him.

 

You are correct... If I sign a contract that provides a 100 Grand Bonus for selling 1 million crayons for the year and then forces me to do nothing but clean toilets in December when I'm sitting at 999,980 Crayons on December 1st. I have the right to call my lawyer because of a clear breach of the covenant of good faith. 

 

However... you are going to have a hard time finding a team to root for. 

 

I'm being Honest... as a fan... I want the year back and I am under no legal obligation to disguise my intentions. 

 

 

[Don Walcott]

 

You are correct... If I sign a contract that provides a 100 Grand Bonus for selling 1 million crayons for the year and then forces me to do nothing but clean toilets in December when I'm sitting at 999,980 Crayons on December 1st. I have the right to call my lawyer because of a clear breach of the covenant of good faith. 

 

However... you are going to have a hard time finding a team to root for. 

 

I'm being Honest... as a fan... I want the year back and I am under no legal obligation to disguise my intentions. 

As a fan, I want to see the best players playing. Buxton is among our best players, and he is, if not the most entertaining, among the three or four most entertaining players to watch. I also want to see the players get paid fairly, and it doesn't bother me at all that Buxton will get a better deal on an extension if the Twins don't jerk him around for the rest of the year.