Is Development Still Broken?

[bird]

 

We have had quite a few high draft picks and/or highly ranked prospects do either nothing or have ended up grossly underachieving with us. Do we really think there is no development problem?

 

 

I might be able to accept your premise that the organization has a development problem relative to other organizations. But first, you'll have to explain away a few exceptions. I think they dwarf the number of examples you might offer up as proof that development is the problem. The exceptions among players who have seen MLB action in 2018 are Rosario, Rogers, Hildenberger, Dozier, Mauer, Berrios, Chargois, Gibson, Curtiss, Garver, Kepler, May, Polanco, and Slegers. All of these players have been developed at or above expectations, have they not? I suppose we could argue about a couple of these guys, but the question would remain: how did bad development let these players slip through the cracks?

 

Is it plausible that development is adequate unless the player is a high draft pick or is highly ranked (exceptions again: Mauer, Gibson, Berrios)? 

 

I know we've had glaring and frustrating disappointments. It makes me want to find someone to blame. But then, along come Kiriloff, Grateral, Romero, Lewis, Rooker, and many others, and they offset in a landslide those irritating disappointments like Jay and Stewart.

 

I don't know what causes the failings, but I have not been convinced so far that there's a pattern involving issues with development. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

We have had quite a few high draft picks and/or highly ranked prospects do either nothing or have ended up grossly underachieving with us. Do we really think there is no development problem?

 

I think we all agree there's a development issue. That's one thing this front office was brought in to fix. I'm not sure the examples used in this thread at all reflect the issue.

[jimmer]

I think we all agree there's a development issue. That's one thing this front office was brought in to fix. I'm not sure the examples used in this thread at all reflect the issue.

well, seems at least a few do NOT agree :-)

[Thrylos]

Missing one piece of data:

 

Since his trade to the Twins, Logan Forsythe is hitting  333/.375/.400

[Shaitan]

Of course the team chemistry is better in a winning clubhouse that in the Twins' this July. I'm also willing to bet these players now have extra motivation as their season isn't just for the stats anymore.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Missing one piece of data:

 

Since his trade to the Twins, Logan Forsythe is hitting  333/.375/.400

 

Must be our awesome clubhouse.

 

Maybe trading Lance Lynn has also revealed our true Cy Young: Mitch Garver.

 

Or maybe if we want to talk about development we talk about Tyler Jay and not the OP's list.

[bird]

 

well, seems at least a few do NOT agree :-)

 

I DO agree we have a development problem. Every team does.

[Han Joelo]

Machado Ops:

 

Baltimore.963

LA. .806

 

Given Dozier improved, and he's been worse, it follows that when the Twins sign him, he'll do better. Right?

[bird]

 

Missing one piece of data:

 

Since his trade to the Twins, Logan Forsythe is hitting  333/.375/.400

 

 

Looks like our development people solved another team's problem. 

[wyowib]

 

We have had quite a few high draft picks and/or highly ranked prospects do either nothing or have ended up grossly underachieving with us. Do we really think there is no development problem?

I don't understand the correlation between the inability of the previous regime to develop talent (and they were completely inept in this regard based on history) and the perceived notion that the current administration continues to fail in this regard.  Who knows if this FO can develop talent, but it is very obvious that they haven't been given time to prove anyone right or wrong.  I do like that they are aggressive with promotions; Arraez, Kiriloff, Graterol, Rooker, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach, Jeffers, Enlow, Balazovic, and Jax are all players that have been aggressively promoted (I consider them being aggressively promoted because they all have some combination of being in their 1st full year (or less) of pro ball, youth for level of competition, and/or coming off of recent serious injury).  We'll see, in time, if it works, but I'm encouraged by the process and recent results. 

[jimmer]

 

I don't understand the correlation between the inability of the previous regime to develop talent (and they were completely inept in this regard based on history) and the perceived notion that the current administration continues to fail in this regard.  

Well, I never correlated the two, so I hear ya.  What I did say earlier is that it's probably unreasonable to believe the new FO could fix the problems of the old regime in so little time.  Certainly, that included the development part of the equation.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I don't understand the correlation between the inability of the previous regime to develop talent (and they were completely inept in this regard based on history) and the perceived notion that the current administration continues to fail in this regard.  Who knows if this FO can develop talent, but it is very obvious that they haven't been given time to prove anyone right or wrong.  I do like that they are aggressive with promotions; Arraez, Kiriloff, Graterol, Rooker, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach, Jeffers, Enlow, Balazovic, and Jax are all players that have been aggressively promoted (I consider them being aggressively promoted because they all have some combination of being in their 1st full year (or less) of pro ball, youth for level of competition, and/or coming off of recent serious injury).  We'll see, in time, if it works, but I'm encouraged by the process and recent results. 

I think development at least in the context of the previous front office (and I don't think they had a problem with identifying talent), was lacking in the pitching department more than anything. This FO was selected because of strong ties to orgs who were good at developing pitching. In that, though, I think time is a key piece here. I don't think that is something you fix by simply firing a few people and bringing a few more in. 

 

That said, we haven't seen quite the meltdowns at promotion to MLB in the last few years that we have a few years prior, and you have some anecdotal evidence in guys like Stewart that there seems to be a big difference in approach. I think the ultimate answer is whether or not some of that home grown pitching (and acquired pitching) can be impactful at the ML level. It will take a couple more years for us to see if that is the case. 

[amjgt]

Perhaps a little uptick in Dozier’s performance can be expected with Machado hitting behind him instead of Morrison.

[Doctor Wu]

Well, the impressive early returns on those players aside, I think the issue of the way the Twins "develop" players certainly is something that could be questioned. Just over the past decade or so, think about all the other players traded away or released who have thrived or played better after they left the Twins organization; everyone from Carlos Gomez, Danny Valencia, and Aaron Hicks to pitchers like Brian Duensing, Liam Hendriks, and Anthony Swarzak. And then, um, there was David Ortiz. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but it seems like those are just a few of many players who stock has risen after they've left the Twins organization.

[yarnivek1972]

Not sure Duensing or Swarzak fit the description. Their numbers aren’t significantly different post Twins. The Twins simply chose not to retain them.

[gman]

With this SSS I would go with more psychological than development. A guy wants to prove something to his new team. He wants to prove something to his old team. His adrenaline is higher affecting his focus and energy. The teams he is facing don't have up to date reports on him (I put this last). Wait a month or more and see.

[beckmt]

Twins seem to be treading water since the trades, so it may cut both ways.  SSS is hard to tell.  Talk to me in a month and will see how the Twins have faired against the better ball clubs (KC does not mean much).  

[twinsguy45]

 

I wasn't. He's a good pitcher.

 Since May22,after settling in from his no spring training episode, Lynn is:

76.2 IP, 65 H, 34BB(eh..) 73 K,  3.17 ERA, and 7-4 record.

 

I haven't been able to understand the shock at getting a return.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 Since May22,after settling in from his no spring training episode, Lynn is:

76.2 IP, 65 H, 34BB(eh..) 73 K,  3.17 ERA, and 7-4 record.

 

I haven't been able to understand the shock at getting a return.

 

yeah, this... for a team looking for a  guy that won't crap the bed every 5 starts and can generally keep them in the game... Lynn was a great fit. He certainly wasn't expensive for NY. Ultimately, that is good for our return too as we get a cost controlled guy with lots of service time left and some upside along with another minor leaguer with some upside. If Austin develops at all, this trade could be an absolute steal. 

[Doomtints]

 

Twins seem to be treading water since the trades, so it may cut both ways.  SSS is hard to tell.  Talk to me in a month and will see how the Twins have faired against the better ball clubs (KC does not mean much).  

 

Weren't they treading water before the trades too?

[alarp33]

Is Development all the way back?

 

SSS Alert. Logan Forysthe with the Twins; .429/.500/.524

Logan Forsythe with the Dodgers;  .207/.270/.290

[amjgt]

[Otto von Ballpark]

https://twitter.com/brandon_warne/status/1027603539546333185?s=21

With 6 K's!

 

.625 BABIP.

 

8 singles, 2 doubles.

[h2oface]

 

.......Who knows if this FO can develop talent, but it is very obvious that they haven't been given time to prove anyone right or wrong.  I do like that they are aggressive with promotions; Arraez, Kiril(l)off, Graterol, Rooker, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach, Jeffers, Enlow, Balazovic, and Jax are all players that have been aggressively promoted (I consider them being aggressively promoted because they all have some combination of being in their 1st full year (or less) of pro ball, youth for level of competition, and/or coming off of recent serious injury).  We'll see, in time, if it works, but I'm encouraged by the process and recent results. 

 

I don't know what Kirilloff and Lewis need to show to be aggressively promoted to AA Chattanooga immediately if not sooner. And Rooker to AAA. Or, they can just let Kirilloff and Lewis continue to eat up High A, and perhaps waste time, but age should not ever be a reason to hold back talent, as far as I am concerned.

[h2oface]

 

With 6 K's!

.625 BABIP.

8 singles, 2 doubles.

 

That's just the kind of hitter that should be batting cleanup, eh?       But singles and doubles are nice, and when your hot, your hot, and all hits these days are appreciated.

[h2oface]

 

Perhaps a little uptick in Dozier’s performance can be expected with Machado hitting behind him instead of Morrison.

 

Except that Dozier has been in several slots, with Machado (who has been slumping and striking out a ton in the last 40 at bats.....) only following him twice. Starting August 1, 5th (with Bellinger following), 6th (Muncy), day off with Verlander pitching (he did come in defensively in the top of the 8th as a double switch and batted 9th in the bottom on the inning with Pederson following, and he still had to hit against Verlander and flew out), 5th (Puig), 5th (Muncy), Leadoff (Machado), 5th (Bellinger), Leadoff (Machado), and last night 4th (Bellinger). Those are all pretty dangerous hitters, though, and Bellinger has really heated up since the break, so your point is still the same, really. (I went to the 21-5 game, with Kershaw pitching).

 

 

[ashbury]

.625 BABIP.

Marvel's Domino has demonstrated that the ability to control probabilities to one's favor is not merely luck but a superpower.

 

[ND-Fan]

I think the difference is that when you go  in these trades your going to winning team and attitude is there that they are going to win. Also these new teams believe in you and your confidence goes up so again your on winning club. This I believe is important factor in club make up. This is the fault I  believe  that Twins and this Front Office have is they have not believed in their players and they may say they do but their actions are quite different. Every year if they are not leading the division or in wild card race they have become sellers they start looking to the future. Players need to have support even when they are not where you thought they would be and need to stick with these players even when it doesn't make since. We heard again last night from Ervin Santana they haven't given up but management had already given up. You can't have that as a team and it just puts extra pressure on individual players to try and keep team winning and yourself performing instead just going out there and performing. I also now believe the last two years performance by this front office is going to be hard to attract front line free agents because these players want to play on winner and with front office that is willing to do that. 

 

I think the Twins front line guru's need to start doing some analytics on themselves what there actions may have on future of their club. I look at this club everyone of their young core is struggling and have gotten off track to where there future is in doubt. This happens a lot with young players but they need to as team get on top of this better especially when your philosophy is build with young talent. Falvey was know to have excellent working relationship with Francona this how the Cleveland was built for this current run. The formula looks the same here Molitor and  him but so far were not getting response he got in Cleveland. The big difference is Falvey is in  total charge and can't be always looking at creative ways to organize a team but has to look at team chemistry and moral of his team. I think were going through learning curve by this front office and how its effecting our players futures.

[howieramone2]

 

Well, the impressive early returns on those players aside, I think the issue of the way the Twins "develop" players certainly is something that could be questioned. Just over the past decade or so, think about all the other players traded away or released who have thrived or played better after they left the Twins organization; everyone from Carlos Gomez, Danny Valencia, and Aaron Hicks to pitchers like Brian Duensing, Liam Hendriks, and Anthony Swarzak. And then, um, there was David Ortiz. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but it seems like those are just a few of many players who stock has risen after they've left the Twins organization.

You know Ortiz left 15 years ago? I won't want any of those others.

[mikelink45]

It is interesting to see how we have been influenced by Keith Law and his SSS.  Sometimes the eyes just see things whether short or long sample.  I wonder what would happen if Morrison went somewhere (I would like to find out).  Reed is trying my patience too.  What happened with these two?

 

I have a difficult time with development, but that is with our young players, not necessarily those we just traded.  Dozier is due for his hot streak and Escobar has been good all season, but both will be FAs.  

But the young players who are yanked up and then dropped back down with lots of little SSS periods, a player like Gonsalves who has been ranked #3 but not in the order of promotions - what happens to him?  We can say he does not look like he will make it in MLB, but we could say that about Slegers and still he has gotten some starts.

 

I do not like the patterns - the new guys immediately get playing time, those in the minors watch a lot of mediocre pickups play in MLB - how does that make them feel?  I will continue to talk about Gardy playing Hicks and Goodrum and we gave them no opportunities, but play Bobby Wilson and Motter. Notice that J T Chargois is still on the Dodgers active roster.  2 -3 3.14 ERA, 1.29 Whip, 33 games.  He reminds me of the current batch of young relievers that we continually ignore so we can bring in Oliver Drake. 

 

What is going on?