The Heimlich maneuver

[Platoon]

Many fans like or dislike players for different, and often irrational, reasons. Polanco and Santana lost followers for PED use. While this isn't the same, everyone will make their own decision. A lot will likely not "root" for him, but may accept the fact that he does get a second chance, as many of us need. I highly doubt any of the girls relatives would be at his opening game appearance, and would wish him "gone". Nor would I blame them. If I was personally involved I would likely feel the same way. But that's why family members of victims aren't on juries. Justice and revenge are two different things. And for everyone's sake, I hope they remain that way.

[Mr. Brooks]

Second chances. Whatever did or did not happen, he was 13 at the time. Remember how mature you were then? Me neither. I was throwing snowballs at cars and just discovering the wonders of Playboy magazine.

 

Second chances. He's not the same guy today. His cerebral cortex is fully grown.

The contact he admitted to happened when he was 15, not 13.

The alleged contact from when he was 13 was dismissed as part of his plea.

 

 

"Yet Heimlich did plead guilty to one felony count of child molestation between February and December 2011, when he was 15 and the girl was six."

 

"As part of the plea agreement the first count, covering the interval when Luke was 13 and the child four, was dismissed."

[Mr. Brooks]

Second chances. Whatever did or did not happen, he was 13 at the time. Remember how mature you were then? Me neither. I was throwing snowballs at cars and just discovering the wonders of Playboy magazine.

 

Second chances. He's not the same guy today. His cerebral cortex is fully grown.

And he's now 22, and if he did do it, he's continuing to victimize the girl by calling her a liar and claiming it never happened.

[alarp33]

If the Twins signed a player who raped a 6 year old it is probably the only single move they could make to lose me as a fan forever.  Disgusting to even consider rooting for a player like that

 

[Vanimal46]

Second chances. Whatever did or did not happen, he was 13 at the time. Remember how mature you were then? Me neither. I was throwing snowballs at cars and just discovering the wonders of Playboy magazine. 

 

Second chances. He's not the same guy today. His cerebral cortex is fully grown.

 

There's a huge difference between being an immature 13 year old discovering the wonders of Playboy magazine and what this guy did. He was a sick, disturbing kid. Please don't shrug this off like this is something that typical 13 year old kids do.

[bighat]

There are other leagues besides MLB. Maybe the kid can sign on in Japan, Mexico, Venezuela, the D.R....away from what would be a nightmare scenario playing here in the USA.

 

The information leaked and you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. I can't see an MLB team wanting this kid anywhere near a major league mound...can you imagine the backlash? The headlines will be something like : "Convicted Child Abuser to pitch for Royals vs. Detroit".  It also appears that most MLB players do not want him in their clubhouses. He will have to look abroad IMO, or find a regular job doing entry level data processing in an office cubicle.

[Squirrel]

There are other leagues besides MLB. Maybe the kid can sign on in Japan, Mexico, Venezuela, the D.R....away from what would be a nightmare scenario playing here in the USA.

 

The information leaked and you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. I can't see an MLB team wanting this kid anywhere near a major league mound...can you imagine the backlash? The headlines will be something like : "Convicted Child Abuser to pitch for Royals vs. Detroit".  It also appears that most MLB players do not want him in their clubhouses. He will have to look abroad IMO, or find a regular job doing entry level data processing in an office cubicle.

Play elsewhere? You don’t think people in other countries would react the same way we do regarding this issue? The internet makes the world a small place ... no way people simply wouldn’t know.

[Squirrel]

Most often the truth is somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of room to operate within the context of criminal sexual conduct with a minor because many actions which would be legal between adults would be illegal involving very young minors. I don't think we know the exact details. It's an unusual case.

I don’t think this is a ‘the truth is in the middle’ situation, not one iota. It’s more of a case of ‘we don’t know what the whole truth is’ situation. I also don’t think this is a situation of ... well ... something that would be legal between adults. I don’t think a 4-6 year old is thinking in terms of sexual contact. And even in adults, unwanted contact is unwanted. If he did rape her, it’s rape no matter her age. It’s just quite a bit more heinous given the fact she was 6. This isn’t two teenagers fooling around and they got caught. Again, I don’t know the whole truth and I’m very conflicted about this young man.

[Squirrel]

By the way, I moved this to the Sports Bar because this really isn’t a ‘I think the Twins should sign him’ discussion. It’s more of a ‘second chances’ discussion about someone who happens to be a talented baseball player. At this point I really feel the baseball is the secondary discussion, not the primary discussion, so I moved the thread here.

[gunnarthor]

I just don't  understand the "he shouldn't play" stance. 

 

1) He committed a crime as a juvenile.

2) We're supposed to believe that our justice system can rehab people

3) We know the juvenile brain is different than an adult brain. 

4) Experts on the subject of sexual abuse say he has less than a 3% chance of being a threat.

5) He fully followed the terms of his sentence.

 

There really isn't more we can ask him to do. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest he do anything but play baseball. I don't think Wells Fargo is going to want to hire him anymore than the Twins. Baseball is the profession he has chosen and is good enough at to work in that highly specialized field. The PR has already cost him millions of dollars. There should be an end to his punishment.

 

The SI article noted that there were another dozen people on campus with registered sex crimes and none of them are going to be outed and not be able to work in the field that they chose. I don't see why we want to punish one person more simply b/c his profession is baseball.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I just don't understand the "he shouldn't play" stance.

 

1) He committed a crime as a juvenile.

2) We're supposed to believe that our justice system can rehab people

3) We know the juvenile brain is different than an adult brain.

4) Experts on the subject of sexual abuse say he has less than a 3% chance of being a threat.

5) He fully followed the terms of his sentence.

 

There really isn't more we can ask him to do. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest he do anything but play baseball. I don't think Wells Fargo is going to want to hire him anymore than the Twins. Baseball is the profession he has chosen and is good enough at to work in that highly specialized field. The PR has already cost him millions of dollars. There should be an end to his punishment.

 

The SI article noted that there were another dozen people on campus with registered sex crimes and none of them are going to be outed and not be able to work in the field that they chose. I don't see why we want to punish one person more simply b/c his profession is baseball.

Couldn't we ask him to show contrition, and stop continuing to victimize the girl?

[gunnarthor]

 

Couldn't we ask him to show contrition, and stop continuing to victimize the girl?

I don't think he's still victimizing the girl. The report says that he hasn't seen her in 8 or 10 years. I don't think someone saying "I didn't do what I plead guilty to" is the same as victimizing the girl, either.

 

A lot of professional athletes have committed crimes - as adults - and not really shown contrition. At most, you'll get some PR approved statement. Not sure why we need more here.

[biggentleben]

 

Couldn't we ask him to show contrition, and stop continuing to victimize the girl?

 

At an absolute bare minimum....

 

I worked with juvenile sex offenders. You know what happens with over 90% of juvenile sex offenders, even the ones who complete a treatment program and are "rehabilitated"?

 

They re-offend. The rate is always right around 90% and was a hair above in the last study I saw in 2015-2016ish. It hasn't changed in the decade I've been seeing the studies.

 

Am I saying he will offend? No, I don't know him personally. I'm not saying he shouldn't have an opportunity to pursue baseball, but if I had such a knock on my record, and I was looking for a job in marketing, I wouldn't be able to get a position likely requisite with my education and experience entering the job field. I'd likely have to start a step or two below and work my way up. For Heimlich, I'm completely fine with him having to show how much he wants baseball by playing his way through independent league ball without any incident until he's then signed.

 

I posted an article today on his final start as a collegian: https://calltothepen.com/2018/06/27/college-world-series-fitting-end-career-luke-heimlich/

 

It's not the most in-depth work I've ever done, but it was honestly one of the hardest pieces I've had to write to put together a piece that did not completely rip the player and the fans after having been in Omaha last week and experiencing multiple OSU fans and their blind vitriol over anyone who dares say this is a gray issue...especially as I had my 3 little girls with me.

[biggentleben]

 

I don't think he's still victimizing the girl. The report says that he hasn't seen her in 8 or 10 years. I don't think someone saying "I didn't do what I plead guilty to" is the same as victimizing the girl, either.

 

A lot of professional athletes have committed crimes - as adults - and not really shown contrition. At most, you'll get some PR approved statement. Not sure why we need more here.

 

Nearly any mental health professional who has worked with a victim of sexual abuse or rape would say you're incorrect.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't think he's still victimizing the girl. The report says that he hasn't seen her in 8 or 10 years. I don't think someone saying "I didn't do what I plead guilty to" is the same as victimizing the girl, either.

 

A lot of professional athletes have committed crimes - as adults - and not really shown contrition. At most, you'll get some PR approved statement. Not sure why we need more here.

Telling national publications that the 6 year old girl you raped is a liar and is making the whole thing up is absolutely continuing to victimize her.

Short of assaulting her again, I'm not sure I can even think of a more disgusting and reprehensible way of continuing to victimize her.

[TheLeviathan]

 

At an absolute bare minimum....

 

I worked with juvenile sex offenders. You know what happens with over 90% of juvenile sex offenders, even the ones who complete a treatment program and are "rehabilitated"?

 

They re-offend. The rate is always right around 90% and was a hair above in the last study I saw in 2015-2016ish. It hasn't changed in the decade I've been seeing the studies.

 

This is not true.  You're referring to recidivism for adults, so it's not a statistic that would apply here.  

 

I think the difficulty here is wrapping our head around what matters most to us.  I am a strong believer that criminals can (and should) be redeemed.  I'm also a strong believer that sex offenders are an exception to that rule.  But people like Heimlich are highly unlikely to repeat their act, especially if they demonstrate that over a period of time.  So do my emotions/beliefs about harming a child/sex offenders trump my beliefs about redemption.  I don't know.

 

I also strongly believe that if you serve the time assigned to you and demonstrate a desire to partake in society that you should be afforded that opportunity.  Up-thread it was falsely claimed that Heimlich failed in his duties to his sentence.  In fact, he did everything asked of him and it wasn't until some local station of Barney Fifes screwed up his case that his information gets out there.  We lock away the records of juvenile offenses for a reason.  His should be locked away too.  He's already been outed in a way that we design the system to prevent....should he be further punished for someone else's stupid mistake?  I don't know, it gets down to privacy and the reasons we lock away juvenile records.  (You know, because we know kids will often do things they won't repeat as adults.  And we believe they shouldn't receive a life time punishment)

 

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm leery of anyone who thinks they do in this case.  You might want to come down from your ivory tower and consider the entire situation a bit more.  It's complicated.

[gunnarthor]

 

Telling national publications that the 6 year old girl you raped is a liar and is making the whole thing up is absolutely continuing to victimize her.
Short of assaulting her again, I'm not sure I can even think of a more disgusting and reprehensible way of continuing to victimize her.

None of those things you wrote is true but it's also an emotionally charged topic. I've said my piece.

[biggentleben]

 

This is not true.  You're referring to recidivism for adults, so it's not a statistic that would apply here.  

 

No, I'm referring to the recidivism for those who offend as juveniles who then offend again as adults. Different statistic. Sexual offense on a minor is a different case than most all juvenile offenses as far as the behavior as an adult and repeated behavior. It's a scary thing, to be honest.

[TheLeviathan]

 

No, I'm referring to the recidivism for those who offend as juveniles who then offend again as adults. Different statistic.

 

I think this is a more accurate statistic to consider:

 

But juvenile sex offenders present a vexing paradigm. In the popular mind their crime—especially one involving an age gap like Heimlich's—is singularly heinous and powered by an urge that can never be cured. Yet it's precisely in the area of sex offenses in which juvenile justice can seem most effective. A preponderance of studies, including pioneering work by Letourneau and Michael Caldwell, has found that the five-year recidivism rate for an offender like the first Luke—who pleaded guilty—is 2.75%. Research suggesting a low reoffense risk for first-time offenders who consistently deny guilt, the second Luke, is far less definitive. But, Letourneau said, "denial is normative," for juveniles facing sex-offender stigma, "and there's definitely no strong evidence that it influences reoffending rates.

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

I think this is a more accurate statistic to consider:

 

And those statistics were based on all sexual assaults committed, not specific to offenses committed with juvenile victims. It's a messy situation with numbers.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And those statistics were based on all sexual assaults committed, not specific to offenses committed with juvenile victims. It's a messy situation with numbers.

 

Well....maybe, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing.  But I think it's fair to say your earlier 90% number is not applicable to this situation.  

 

http://www.campaignforyouthjustice.org/Downloads/KeyResearch/FactSheetYouthSexOffenders.doc

 

So I'm not sure where you got that number from.

[Vanimal46]

Is it a right or a privilege for someone to get paid to play a sport professionally?

 

Personally I lean towards privilege... And if organizations don't want to pay a person with his criminal background, that's their prerogative.

[biggentleben]

 

Well....maybe, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing.  But I think it's fair to say your earlier 90% number is not applicable to this situation.  

 

http://www.campaignforyouthjustice.org/Downloads/KeyResearch/FactSheetYouthSexOffenders.doc

 

So I'm not sure where you got that number from.

 

It's a number that came from various industry services when I worked in that industry. Related to offenders that offended on underage victims as a juvenile versus them offending again on underage victims as adults.

[biggentleben]

 

Is it a right or a privilege for someone to get paid to play a sport professionally?

Personally I lean towards privilege... And if organizations don't want to pay a person with his criminal background, that's their prerogative.

 

Well, it's a privilege to work in any field, truly.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's a number that came from various industry services when I worked in that industry. Related to offenders that offended on underage victims as a juvenile versus them offending again on underage victims as adults.

 

Everything I'm reading indicates that is not accurate to this situation.  I think it's important we talk about the right stats, with the best evidence, in a complicated situation.

 

Heimlich looks to be more likely to be 90% unlikely to repeat rather than what you said.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

None of those things you wrote is true but it's also an emotionally charged topic. I've said my piece.

Well, it's pretty close.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/07/sports/luke-heimlich-sex-crime.html

 

 

“Nothing ever happened,” he said, when asked for specifics about what might have occurred between him and his niece.

...

 

“I always denied anything ever happened,” he said. “Even after I pled guilty, which was a decision me and my parents thought was the best option to move forward as a family. And after that, even when I was going through counseling and treatment, I maintained my innocence the whole time.”

There was no interaction with his niece that he could imagine would have been misinterpreted, he said, adding, “Nothing ever happened, so there is no incident to look back on.”
 

Heimlich had written an apology to the victim, but he now says he did so because “there were certain requirements when going through counseling that had to be done to finish.”

 

Say what you will about whether he should be in pro ball, but he probably should have said "No comment", refused the interview, or referred back to his statement from last year that he had "taken responsibility for my conduct when I was a teenager."

[alarp33]

 

I just don't  understand the "he shouldn't play" stance. 

 

1) He committed a crime as a juvenile.

2) We're supposed to believe that our justice system can rehab people

3) We know the juvenile brain is different than an adult brain. 

4) Experts on the subject of sexual abuse say he has less than a 3% chance of being a threat.

5) He fully followed the terms of his sentence.

 

There really isn't more we can ask him to do. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest he do anything but play baseball. I don't think Wells Fargo is going to want to hire him anymore than the Twins. Baseball is the profession he has chosen and is good enough at to work in that highly specialized field. The PR has already cost him millions of dollars. There should be an end to his punishment.

 

The SI article noted that there were another dozen people on campus with registered sex crimes and none of them are going to be outed and not be able to work in the field that they chose. I don't see why we want to punish one person more simply b/c his profession is baseball.

 

YIKES.  I hope you don't have kids/ daughters  

 

"There should be an end to his punishment".   I wonder if the 6 year old girl he raped has had an end to the emotional damage that was done to her

[Squirrel]

 

Telling national publications that the 6 year old girl you raped is a liar and is making the whole thing up is absolutely continuing to victimize her.
Short of assaulting her again, I'm not sure I can even think of a more disgusting and reprehensible way of continuing to victimize her.

While I'm not trying to defend Heimlich here, if we want to talk about who is victimizing whom, then why isn't the person who broke this story part of this ongoing victimization? Was there any thought to what doing this might mean to this girl, or was the only thought given to outing Heimlich because he is a college baseball star and that would garner attention?

 

And in what sector, what job could he possibly try for, where this won't be an issue for employers and/or colleagues?

 

While I fully understand the heinous nature of the crime has many of us saying, 'Omg, no! Anywhere but here!' ... if everyone says that, then where? He's satisfied the terms of his punishment, is this how all offenders, of any crime, should be treated? You don't know what contrition he has or hasn't shown as I don't think he needs to prove that to me. Yeah, okay, it'd be nice to see him publicly remorseful, but I don't count and what I think doesn't count toward that, and shouldn't, imo. The general public shouldn't be allowed to tack on terms to his punishment. We have no idea what has/hasn't been said privately. Is he supposed to go through circus hoops every time this comes up? At what point does he get to move on to some degree? (I'd guess completely being able to move on will never happen for him because, well, yeah, but ... I still ask the question.)

 

As I said above, I'm very conflicted. Part of me is saying, 'Yuck, no, go away! Ugh!' but part of me knows, well, he has to be given an opportunity somewhere if he's legally satisfied the terms of his punishment. Where is the line? It can't be never.

[Vanimal46]

I think the line can be never as far as his aspirations to play in the MLB... It's a public facing profession and people will never let it go that their team signed a registered sex offender.

 

As far as other professions he could do, that's up to the organization. He could work in an Amazon warehouse or something like that and be out of the public's view forever.

 

This is going to be a life long problem for him as long as he's a registered sex offender.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

While I'm not trying to defend Heimlich here, if we want to talk about who is victimizing whom, then why isn't the person who broke this story part of this ongoing victimization? Was there any thought to what doing this might mean to this girl, or was the only thought given to outing Heimlich because he is a college baseball star and that would garner attention?

If you are interested in that, the Oregonian published a piece on its decision to publish the original story:

 

https://www.oregonlive.com/beavers/index.ssf/2017/06/why_we_published_the_story_abo.html