Article: A Solution for the Twins Outfield

[howeda7]

 

What I find amusing about these threads will be the TD reaction after Wade gets promoted to MLB... There will without question be something saying DFA him the moment he has a cold streak.

Let's take context here. Both Granite and Wade have spent time on the DL this season, and as noted, that makes it difficult to promote (side note, I do think Wade should get the call to AAA in the not so distant future).

The other problem is that we've had a couple decent seasons out of Grossman, of which were very good for a 4th OF, and I can certainly see the FO's desire to see if he can figure it out. You don't jettison major leaguers because of a bad slump, especially when there's no guarantee their replacement will be any better.

I don't get the fascination with Granite. He's basically a singles hitter. That's not bad as an occasional sub batting 9th, but not a starting OF in MLB. He's a defensive sub, and should have a decent career as such. But I don't see Granite fixing much of anything... not long term at least. I'd probably role with Cave for the time being at CF.

Grossman is not a good 4th OF'er and his 2017 #'s .246/.721 are close to his career average. But I wouldn't call that a league average hitter. It's pretty obvious that 2016 was the aberration for Grossman, not 2018. 

[Doubles]

 

Back when he first returned from the DL, I was on record as being fine with the decision to skip a rehab stint. Knowing full well that would negatively impact his hitting, the reality was that the outfield was a mess the more often they played without his defense. With the Twins having had the accurate information on the fracture far longer than the public , it’s irresponsible that Buxton was allowed to play despite not being able to swing comfortably. It’s one thing to play through pain, but Minnesota allowing Buxton to jeopardize himself further i\\was silly.

I find this to be rather revisionist.

[ThejacKmp]

 

It was pretty easy to see last offseason that a RH OF was a need... Instead they went with LaMarre who's had little to no success in the MLB.

Can't say I'm shocked this isn't working out for the team.

 

Who did you want them to go get? Look at the guys who signed this offseason, there wasn't anybody. The best of the bunch was Carlos Gomez and he was able to get a starting job in Tampa so there's little chance he'd come to the Twins even if they gave him more than $4 million.

 

The reality is that finding a 4th OF means looking at guys like Cave, Lamarre, Grossman etc. If guys are good enough to be guaranteed solid OFs, their teams don't let go of them or they take starting jobs. The Twins have done remarkably well with Grossman and LaMarre in a short sample.

Edited June 4, 2018 by ThejacKmp

[ThejacKmp]

The Twins should drop Peit and bring up Cave. They should platoon Cave and Lamarre and hope that works until Buxton is ready to come back. A righty 4th OF should be easier to grab at the deadline when teams are selling and guys welcome a trade to a contender even if it is a bit role (my hope is the Twins use the Hughes savings to take on McCutchen’s salary and get the Giants under the luxury task in exchange for a C prospect).

 

The issue with that is it leaves you a bit short in the IF since Adrianza becomes the only backup for 2B, 3B and SS. It makes it tougher to DH Sano since an injury at 2B, SS or 3B means you either move Rosario in to 2B, try a backup catcher at 3B for an inning or two, or lose the DH. But that seems like an unlikely thing and it’s a short term thing until Polanco comes back in 25 games.

 

Wade needs to play every day and should be up in AAA any day now. Granite never hit in the majors (.611 OPS) and doesn’t have a minor league track record that says that’s a SSS aberration (.770 at AAA, .729 at AA). Easily one of the more overrated “prospects”. I’m continually surprised he’s listed as one of MLB’s top 30 prospects. The draft should knock him off that list but his ceiling is 4th OF.

[Mike Sixel]

Who did you want them to go get? Look at the guys who signed this offseason, there wasn't anybody. The best of the bunch was Carlos Gomez and he was able to get a starting job in Tampa so there's little chance he'd come to the Twins even if they gave him more than $4 million.

 

The reality is that finding a 4th OF means looking at guys like Cave, Lamarre, Grossman etc. If guys are good enough to be guaranteed solid OFs, their teams don't let go of them or they take starting jobs. The Twins have done remarkably well with Grossman and LaMarre in a short sample.

They could have traded for one. If this is the window, then they need to be willing to trade prospects.

[ThejacKmp]

 

They could have traded for one. If this is the window, then they need to be willing to trade prospects.

 

First of all, their window is just opening. Not time to worry about it closing. But even if it was closing:

That's easier said than done. You have Buxton, Kepler, and Rosario who all are going to start. And coming up you have Kiriloff, Baddoo, Rooker, Davis, and Wade and maybe Lewis in the OF. So you’re going to have competition for 4th OF as soon as the second half of this season (Wade, Rooker).

 

So you’re looking for someone who is an upgrade over Grossman and co. but who isn’t so good he’s going to block someone farther down the line. That’s a tough place to hit. Not to mention you’re giving up prospects to add to an area that looks to be a pretty considerable strength for the Twins going forward.

 

Grossman isn’t amazing and LaMarre/Cave aren’t either but they’re likely a decent backup plan. You can’t anticipate all major injuries and the Twins are unlucky enough to have Mauer, Castro (Garver could have played RF) and Buxton all down at the same time. Mauer and Buck will be back soon, lightening the load for Grossman.

[ashbury]

They could have traded for one. If this is the window, then they need to be willing to trade prospects.

Is "window" a term this front office has used with any consistency, or it this how fans view the process based on other front offices? A tiny bit of web-searching didn't turn up Falvey talking about windows. What I can recall Falvey talking about is “long-term, sustainable, championship-caliber” when he was hired. (Similar quote here.) That's not necessarily at odds with trading prospects, but it's not especially congruent-sounding, either.

 

They traded a lottery-ticket^* pitcher to get Jake Cave. Someone of higher caliber would cost more than that. Would you trade Ben Rortvedt for a backup OF, for example? More importantly, if you forget about windows and focus on long-term sustainability, would most GMs?

 

I have a feeling that this tangent may swamp the original topic.

 

^{* _{By that I mean a player who hasn't even made it past short-season/rookie ball yet. Obviously no prospects are sure things. But then again, neither are established players - running a franchise involves weighing the relative risks...}}

[USAFChief]

 

Who did you want them to go get? 

A RH hitting 4th OFer.

 

We've been pretty clear on that.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Is "window" a term this front office has used with any consistency, or it this how fans view the process based on other front offices? A tiny bit of web-searching didn't turn up Falvey talking about windows. What I can recall Falvey talking about is “long-term, sustainable, championship-caliber” when he was hired. (Similar quote here.) That's not necessarily at odds with trading prospects, but it's not especially congruent-sounding, either.

 

They traded a lottery-ticket^* pitcher to get Jake Cave. Someone of higher caliber would cost more than that. Would you trade Ben Rortvedt for a backup OF, for example? More importantly, if you forget about windows and focus on long-term sustainability, would most GMs?

 

I have a feeling that this tangent may swamp the original topic.

 

^{* _{By that I mean a player who hasn't even made it past short-season/rookie ball yet. Obviously no prospects are sure things. But then again, neither are established players - running a franchise involves weighing the relative risks...}}

 

Mid market teams can't compete for "the long term, forever"....they just can't. But yes, this is a tangent. there was actually recently an article on this on one of the sites....basically, to extend your window (and to have ultimate success) you need to spend more and more money.....

[ThejacKmp]

 

A RH hitting 4th OFer.

 

We've been pretty clear on that.

 

Again who?

 

I'd like them to find a guy who throws 110 and doesn't need any rest but if I don't give you an example, I might as well be wishing for a my little pony.

 

The 4th OF market was predictable bare this offseason. Not a lot of vets looking for any job and those that were hit LH. Hard to blame the Twins for not finding something that didn't really exist. Unless you have an idea?

[USAFChief]

 

Again who?

 

I'd like them to find a guy who throws 110 and doesn't need any rest but if I don't give you an example, I might as well be wishing for a my little pony.

 

The 4th OF market was predictable bare this offseason. Not a lot of vets looking for any job and those that were hit LH. Hard to blame the Twins for not finding something that didn't really exist. Unless you have an idea?

Lefty mashing corner OFers are one of the more easily found commodities in MLB. IT didn't have to be a free agent, although Carlos Gomez was just about perfect.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Mid market teams can't compete for "the long term, forever"....they just can't. But yes, this is a tangent. there was actually recently an article on this on one of the sites....basically, to extend your window (and to have ultimate success) you need to spend more and more money.....

 

They can. The Rays have a few down years from time to time but they don't ever rebuild or tear it down.

 

The Cardinals aren't totally mid-market but they aren't the Yankees and they have been consistently competitive.

 

I think that's a main issue: consistently competitive vs. all-in. The Cardinals showed that consistently competitive can yield some titles. The Rays showed that it can not. The Royals show that all-in can be great. The Padres, not so much.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Grossman is not a good 4th OF'er and his 2017 #'s .246/.721 are close to his career average. But I wouldn't call that a league average hitter. It's pretty obvious that 2016 was the aberration for Grossman, not 2018. 

If you knock out the first three weeks of the season, Robbie Grossman has a .785 OPS and is an above-average hitter. I'm not saying that's a fair way to look at him but I think we should wait a bit longer to say he's 2017 and not 2016.

Edited June 4, 2018 by ThejacKmp

[ThejacKmp]

 

Lefty mashing corner OFers are one of the more easily found commodities in MLB. IT didn't have to be a free agent, although Carlos Gomez was just about perfect.

 

Name one who was available. You keep saying they're there but don't provide a name.

As stated, Carlos Gomez got a deal as a starter. He's not going to come to MN to be a 4th OF unless you give him a lot more money (like $8 million instead of $4 million) or multiple years. And even if you got him, not sure he hits much more than Grossman. This year he has a .624 OPS with a .632 OPS vs. lefties. Last year he hit .645 vs. lefties. Likely a better fielder than Grossman but Granite can do those numbers.

 

My point is that shopping for 4th OF puts you in bargain bin territory. Good players get starting jobs or are under team control and are expensive and don't make sense for a Twins farm system relatively loaded with outfield talent.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Name one who was available. You keep saying they're there but don't provide a name.

As stated, Carlos Gomez got a deal as a starter. He's not going to come to MN to be a 4th OF unless you give him a lot more money (like $8 million instead of $4 million) or multiple years. And even if you got him, not sure he hits much more than Grossman. This year he has a .624 OPS with a .632 OPS vs. lefties. Last year he hit .645 vs. lefties. Likely a better fielder than Grossman but Granite can do those numbers.

 

My point is that shopping for 4th OF puts you in bargain bin territory. Good players get starting jobs or are under team control and are expensive and don't make sense for a Twins farm system relatively loaded with outfield talent.

 

The Twins have Wade, Cave, Granite all in AAA (or should be).....they couldn't find one RH OF to trade for? I just don't buy that. And no, I don't have a list of the RH OF in AA and AAA to tell you who.....

 

It's not crucial.....but it also wouldn't be expensive to find a RH OF that they think is a 4th OF (and maybe LaMarre remarkably becomes so, against years of minor league data saying otherwise, which would be great).

[yarnivek1972]

Where’s Brian Buchanan when you need him?

 

I know he’s been out of the league for a decade and a half, but he could probably still hit LHP.