Where is Revere Most Valuable?

[SDTwinsFan]

Couple things: comparing Delmon's switch from RF to LF and Willingham's switch from LF to RF is not at all the same thing. LF requires more range, which Delmon did not possess, resulting in terrible defense. However, switching from LF to RF requires less range, and even though perhaps more technically difficult (with the overhang), should be an easier role. Also, with all of the Revere discussion, it will be a moot point if Plouffe hits like he is capable of hitting.

[Jim Crikket]

I like the idea of having at least two OFs that can cover some ground because it will make your pitchers "better" and save runs. That said, it dumbfounds me that so many people are ready to hand Ben Revere a starting spot... much less the CF starting spot... based on what we saw of him last season. His speed on the basebpaths means nothing if he (a) doesn't get on base, and ( screws up when he does get on base. He's a nice guy to have for games when you want to give Span a day off and perhaps as a late inning replacement as a PR or for defense. But if Plouffe can cover some ground in the OF and contribute offensively, as well, he's got far more potential to improve the Twins than Revere does.

[Thrylos]

Revere is 23 years old. He still has some learning to do and complete his game. I really never understood the frustration of some fans with younger players who have yet to reach their peak. Here are some numbers just for fun:

Ben Revere's age 23 season: .267/.310/.309 (.619 OPS)

Carlos Gomez' age 23 season: .229/.287/.337 (.623 OPS)

Delmon Young's age 23 season: .284/.308/.425 (.733 OPS)

Kirby Puckett's age 24 (was in the minors for his age 23 season: ) .296/.320/.336 (.655 OPS)

 

Gomez with similar numbers and better defence than Revere was rushed out of town. Ditto Delmon Young but his was in an injury-ladden season a season and a half later, following a .298/.333/.493 age 24 season, in which he single handedly pretty much carried the team to the post-season after Morneau's injury. Kirby because the Twins' fans darling, but that was in an era in which people were more patient regarding young hitters.

[Twins Fan From Afar]

Revere is 23 years old. He still has some learning to do and complete his game. I really never understood the frustration of some fans with younger players who have yet to reach their peak. Here are some numbers just for fun:

Ben Revere's age 23 season: .267/.310/.309 (.619 OPS)

Carlos Gomez' age 23 season: .229/.287/.337 (.623 OPS)

Delmon Young's age 23 season: .284/.308/.425 (.733 OPS)

Kirby Puckett's age 24 (was in the minors for his age 23 season: ) .296/.320/.336 (.655 OPS)

 

Gomez with similar numbers and better defence than Revere was rushed out of town. Ditto Delmon Young but his was in an injury-ladden season a season and a half later, following a .298/.333/.493 age 24 season, in which he single handedly pretty much carried the team to the post-season after Morneau's injury. Kirby because the Twins' fans darling, but that was in an era in which people were more patient regarding young hitters.

 

Good points, thrylos. I think, perhaps because we have been hearing and seeing Revere part of 2010 and most of 2011, people have this perception that "what you see is what you get" with him -- that he's not going to improve or change his game. I'd like to think that, with him turning only 24 this May, there's room for growth. I'd also add that he's only played 130 major league games thus far. So it's understandable that he has some learning to do.

[Jim Crikket]

I don't think it's being hyper-critical of Revere to point out that RIGHT NOW he is not deserving of being given a starting OF position. If and when he figures out how to get on base regularly and thus contribute offensively, then by all means, let's talk about whether he's earned a starting spot. Until then, we're just debating a potential he hasn't realized yet. It's just that people are suggesting he should supplant a presumed healthy Span in CF right now that seems premature, at best. And if he isn't going to be the primary CF, then it's fair to consider whether his lack of arm and lack of power at the plate make him the best option at a starting corner OF position to start this season.

[zchrz]

Revere will be fine in left it hides his arm and its not going to sap to much range from him because they can just play span in right center to make up for Willinghams slow feet.

[Nick Nelson]

I'd add to the list Torii Hunter, who hit .250/.309/.380 (.689 OPS) in his age 23 season and was a Gold Glover receiving MVP votes two years later. The rush to judgment on Revere strikes me as pretty extreme, although it's not hard to see why many folks see his skill set as rather limiting.

[powrwrap]

I'd add to the list Torii Hunter, who hit .250/.309/.380 (.689 OPS) in his age 23 season and was a Gold Glover receiving MVP votes two years later. The rush to judgment on Revere strikes me as pretty extreme, although it's not hard to see why many folks see his skill set as rather limiting.

Statistics are a wonderful tool to rate talent. So are eyeballs and knowledge. I would suggest that those willing to dismiss Revere are using their eyes and knowledge while those holding out hoping that he will develop are relying on statistics OF OTHER PLAYERS. You may put me in the eyeball camp.

 

I'm afraid the most Twins fans can hope for with Revere is Juan Pierre Lite, meaning he will be like Juan Pierre except he will bat .270 instead of .300 and won't get on base as often.

[Nick Nelson]

I'm afraid the most Twins fans can hope for with Revere is Juan Pierre Lite, meaning he will be like Juan Pierre except he will bat .270 instead of .300 and won't get on base as often.

What reason is there to assume Revere can't hit .300 or above in the majors? He hit .270 last year as a 23-year-old rookie. You see absolutely no upside for him?

[Harrison Greeley III]

Span is indeed a great defensive CF, but Revere has the ability to be Carlos Gomez good if his jumps get better with experience. Let him log the time there to get better when facing a RHP. With a lefty, platoon Plouffe and put Span in CF.

[powrwrap]

What reason is there to assume Revere can't hit .300 or above in the majors? He hit .270 last year as a 23-year-old rookie. You see absolutely no upside for him?

I presume you watch Twins games either at the ballpark or on TV. I simply don't see the potential. I see the upside being Juan Pierre Lite.

 

What is the track record for 5' 9" 170 lbs. 23 year old rookies that hit .270? With most of their hits on the ground?

[Harrison Greeley III]

23 year old rookies that hit .270? With most of their hits on the ground?

What does his being 23 have anything to do with it?

[spideyo]

I'm a big Revere fan, but assuming Span is back to his prime playing condition (which in my mind is still a HUGE "if"), I'm warming to the idea of Revere platooning with Plouffe in LF, at least to start. Then Plouffe also gets a little more playing time than if he was just on the bench, and it's not so scary to have span take a day off and have a Plouffe-Revere-Willingham OF. On the days Plouffe starts, Rever becomes a dangerous weapon on the bench. Definitely would make a team think twice about intentionally walking somebody late in a game when they could be subbed out for Revere.

[Dilligaf69]

If Span stays healthy then it's a platoon with Plouffe in LF. Revere right now is a 4th OF/PH/PR.

[Nick Nelson]

I presume you watch Twins games either at the ballpark or on TV. I simply don't see the potential. I see the upside being Juan Pierre Lite.

 

What is the track record for 5' 9" 170 lbs. 23 year old rookies that hit .270? With most of their hits on the ground?

Yes, I watch the games. I don't think you can make absolute assessments of a rookie no matter how much you watch them play. When Torii Hunter was struggling through his first season, looking raw in the outfield and over-matched at the plate, I'm sure many fans who watched him were making the same sort of rash judgments. Young players can improve, learn and make adjustments.

 

Just because Revere put the ball in the dirt 70 percent of the time last year doesn't mean he always will, and even if he continues to tend toward grounders it doesn't mean he can't be successful (look at Ichiro for an extreme example). He hit .300 or better at every level in the minors, without exception.

[Turd Furgeson]

I think Revere is capable of hitting .300 but it will be pretty empty as I don't think he's going to draw many walks. He'll be severely lacking in the power department, I would guess as well. He'll makeup for some of that with his base stealing to be sure but overall I don't think he'll be much of a difference maker offensively. Could be a solid guy to bat near the bottom of your lineup but I don't expect too much more.

[powrwrap]

Yes, I watch the games. I don't think you can make absolute assessments of a rookie no matter how much you watch them play. Young players can improve, learn and make adjustments.

 

Just because Revere put the ball in the dirt 70 percent of the time last year doesn't mean he always will, and even if he continues to tend toward grounders it doesn't mean he can't be successful (look at Ichiro for an extreme example). He hit .300 or better at every level in the minors, without exception.

I hope you are right. I just don't have any confidence in Revere being anything more than the second coming of Carlos Gomez, but with less power.

[Seth Stohs]

which makes Juan Pierre a great comp for Revere. Early in Pierre's career, he would hit over .300 and get on base at a very good clip and then steal a ton of bases. Similar defensively. If Ben Revere turns into a young Juan Pierre, that could be very valuable. It will largely be dependent upon his ability to hit over .300.

[jlovren]

What Juan Pierre did in his early career was all star level. Check his stats, quite remarkable. If Revere can hit .300 and get on base at .350-.370 and steal 45-60 bases than we all should be jumping for joy. I think it's not totally out of the question.

[powrwrap]

which makes Juan Pierre a great comp for Revere.

Here is likely Ben Revere’s comp.

 

Player X: First round draft choice (21st pick)

Revere: First round draft choice (28th pick)

 

Player X Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .303/.361/.343

Revere: Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .311/.372/.369

 

Player X Age: 22, League: AA-AAA, Batting: .308/.381/.363

Revere Age: 22, League: AA, Batting: .305/.371/.363

 

Player X Age: 23, League; AAA, Batting: .321/.380/.349

Revere Age: 23, League: AAA, Batting: .303/.338/.364

 

Player X, First full year in Majors, Age 24, 396 ABs, Batting: .280/.311/.326, 31 of 37 in SB att.

Revere, First full year in Majors, Age 23, 450 ABs, Batting .267/.310/.309, 34 of 43 in SB att.

 

Can you guess the identity of “Player X”?

[Nick Nelson]

I hope you are right. I just don't have any confidence in Revere being anything more than the second coming of Carlos Gomez, but with less power.

Carlos Gomez strikes out in nearly a quarter of his plate appearances. The two are not comparable. Revere is a contact hitter.

[Nick Nelson]

Here is likely Ben Revere’s comp.

 

Player X: First round draft choice (21st pick)

Revere: First round draft choice (28th pick)

 

Player X Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .303/.361/.343

Revere: Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .311/.372/.369

 

Player X Age: 22, League: AA-AAA, Batting: .308/.381/.363

Revere Age: 22, League: AA, Batting: .305/.371/.363

 

Player X Age: 23, League; AAA, Batting: .321/.380/.349

Revere Age: 23, League: AAA, Batting: .303/.338/.364

 

Player X, First full year in Majors, Age 24, 396 ABs, Batting: .280/.311/.326, 31 of 37 in SB att.

Revere, First full year in Majors, Age 23, 450 ABs, Batting .267/.310/.309, 34 of 43 in SB att.

 

Can you guess the identity of “Player X”?

Here's a quote from you, from earlier in this thread:

 

"I would suggest that those willing to dismiss Revere are using their eyes and knowledge while those holding out hoping that he will develop are relying on statistics OF OTHER PLAYERS. You may put me in the eyeball camp."

 

Pretty funny.

[Tyomoth]

Revere best serves the Twins by assuming a position on the trading block. Span has very similar abilities with the added ability to draw a walk. You simply can't have an outfield with two spray-hitting speedsters who can't throw. I'd rather see Willingham in left, Span in center, Plouffe (or other contending youngster with a bit of pop in his bat) in right and a new addition to the bullpen via trade.

[Fanatic Jack]

Anybody watch last night’s spring training game against the Red Sox. Trevor Plouffe looked terrible in the outfield defensively. He turned around twice on an easy fly ball hit by David Ortiz that turned into a double. He can’t read or track fly balls off the bat. To say Revere is a 4^th outfielder is a stretch so early in his career. I would rather say Plouffe is nothing more than a DH at best for the Twins. Revere is still most valuable in center field but he is much better defensively in left field than Plouffe and it's not even close. Plouffe might be worse than Delmon Young in left field with terrible jumps and bad judgment. Let's be honest Plouffe is another first round bust for the Twins.

[alarp33]

Carlos Gomez strikes out in nearly a quarter of his plate appearances. The two are not comparable. Revere is a contact hitter.

You just compared Revere to Ichiro, I think that opens the door for any comps...

[Nick Nelson]

You just compared Revere to Ichiro, I think that opens the door for any comps...

I didn't really compare them directly, I said they fit under the same profile. Both are contact hitters who won't walk a ton and derive their value from hitting for average and stealing bases. I pointed out that Ichiro is an extreme example, as he's basically the best-case scenario for that prototype. The takeaway should be that it's a lot easier to post a high batting average when you're striking out less than 10 percent of the time. Gomez hasn't even hit .260 in the bigs and probably won't because he whiffs so much.

[powrwrap]

post deleted

[powrwrap]

Here's a quote from you, from earlier in this thread:

 

"I would suggest that those willing to dismiss Revere are using their eyes and knowledge while those holding out hoping that he will develop are relying on statistics OF OTHER PLAYERS. You may put me in the eyeball camp."

 

Pretty funny.

I figured I'd play along. If people are going to use Torii Hunter and Kirby Puckett's early stats to project why they think Ben Revere should not be dismissed there are likely 25 other examples of closer comps to project why Ben Revere will not become Torii Hunter or Kirby Puckett.

 

The mystery player I selected is statistically amazingly close to Revere. Even down to the draft round selection spot and stolen bases stats.

 

Player X is Jason Tyner.

[oprahchapelle]

Look for concussion symptoms in the next couple days

[oprahchapelle]

Why does gardy insist on moving players from their most comfortable position? He did it with Delmon, now he is doing it with willingham.